Rant Will someone please kill this bitch? :(

[Scouse]

Get it?

YES! I get it! But I'd have to be spied upon to be part of the control group! So I CAN'T.

Geddit?!

 

[old.Tohtori]

YES! I get it! But I'd have to be spied upon to be part of the control group! So I CAN'T.

Geddit?!

Yes i got it already long time ago, we're discussing different points of the same coin. While you talk about the shape and form, i talk about the materials used to make it :lol:

That's internet discussions for you.

 

[Trem]

Without me trawling through all the pages in this thread can someone tell me what exactly is the problem with ID cards?

Do some of you like to think you are James Bond or something, do you think the government doesn't already have shit loads of info on you anyway? Also what is the problem with having them if it stops dodgy people walking the streets freely? What is the problem with them if it stops asian (NOT RACIST!) taxi drivers using 1 driving licence between 27 of them?

Don't understand what the problem is at all. Not one of us is important enough or special enough to have a logical say in this and isn't it pretty much the same as the photo driving licence? My one problem would be the money spent on implementing this scheme could be used on hospitals, cheaper cigs or cheaper petrol

 

[Tom]

The government may have the information, but not in a centralised database. When was the last time you filled an official form in, with just your NI number? After all, that's all that should be required for any government department to get your details.

For me the primary objection is that it is a slipperly slope to totalitarianism. Government is already too big.

 

[dysfunction]

Do the reading yourself Dys! It's the only effective way to understand the arguments. Faffing about on a forum rarely changes someone's mind.

But, just to keep you happy, I'll give you a couple. The right to protest has been severely curtailed since Labour came in and under section 44 of the Terrorism act the police now have the right to stop-and-search anyone without "reasonable suspicion"...

I'm not providing links because you have to want to find out for yourself.

As for the ID cards - I figured my last post contained enough in-your-face reasons - but you don't want to see them.

Lets turn this about. What evidence can you provide that they're a good thing that don't have the potential to be abused by unscrupulous or malicious intent?




OK. They should sign up to having their car movements tracked because they don't like the idea of having their cars tracked?

Should ID-objectors voluntarily give up their fingerprints and get an ID card to show their objection to getting an ID card and ponying up their fingerprints?

That argument's almost as daft as religion! Oh, errrr...

I don't think you have given me any solid factual evidence. You go on spouting about all sorts of nonesense without having any solid facts.

You still have The right to Protest. That right has not been lost!! You are free to protest but just not outside Parliament. I can see the reason behind this and I agree with it. You have done all this reading and still fail to give me one "right" that has actaully been lost and yet you bang on about all these rights being taken away. The right to not be stopped and searched isnt a "right" as far as I'm aware...

I don't see what the fuss is about having your fingerprints taken. I had mine taken for my South African ID.
I have had no problems. Yes its a different country but its the same principle as here.

Ive already stated why I think they are a good thing.
Everything has the potential to be abused. The passport syatem can be abused. The benfits system can be abused. The tax system can be abused. The NHS system can be abused. The internet can be abused by unscrupulous or malicious intent. Do you want all those things to be ended as well?

 

[DaGaffer]

I don't think you have given me any solid factual evidence. You go on spouting about all sorts of nonesense without having any solid facts.

Actually I think there have been plenty of facts, you just choose not to believe them.

You still have The right to Protest. That right has not been lost!! You are free to protest but just not outside Parliament. I can see the reason behind this and I agree with it. You have done all this reading and still fail to give me one "right" that has actaully been lost and yet you bang on about all these rights being taken away. The right to not be stopped and searched isnt a "right" as far as I'm aware...

No, but the rights to free assembly have been reduced, and why exactly do you agree that we shouldn't be allowed to demonstrate outside the centre of our democracy? Because someone might blow it up? Because it holds up traffic? Or because MPs don't want to be bothered with us peons? None of these things are valid reasons as far as I can see. The point is, we had certain freedoms and now they are being eroded. And yes, we did have a "right" not to be stopped and searched without just cause (a right that was hard-fought to enshrine in law as recently as the 80s by the way), and that too has been taken away, so know we're at the mercy of any policeman who feels like its a slow say and he fancies giving someone a hard time. Probably not a problem for us white middle-class folks, maybe more of an issue if you're of a certain ethnicity.

I don't see what the fuss is about having your fingerprints taken. I had mine taken for my South African ID.
I have had no problems. Yes its a different country but its the same principle as here.

Because I don't see why I should. Just because you don't see an issue with it (and lets face it, you grew up in a repressive regime, you take it for granted), doesn't mean that it isn't anathema to most Britons.

Ive already stated why I think they are a good thing.
Everything has the potential to be abused. The passport syatem can be abused. The benfits system can be abused. The tax system can be abused. The NHS system can be abused. The internet can be abused by unscrupulous or malicious intent. Do you want all those things to be ended as well?

That's just misdirection. All of the above can be abused by government (which is what we're talking about here) but we have an opportunity to exercise our democratic rights if we see that happening (e.g. tax, NHS etc are usually manifesto promises), we have no such opportunity here, and in fact its been introduced, like so many nuLab abuses, through "regulation", rather than legislation/Manifesto commitment, which is probably why so few of us here trust our lords and masters not to abuse this; they're abusing the legal process to ensure the very implementation of ID cards, so why should they be trusted in their operation?

 

[Scouse]

Nice post DaGaffer

I CBA with this anymore tho. What happened to people caring for each other? It's obvious that some people are so vehemently opposed to this (good reasons or not) that it would be an unacceptable blight on their lives to force them to have ID cards. I, for one, will be exiled from my country of birth (and therefore my family) shortly before they force me to submit.

Those who are "for" ID cards clearly don't give a shit about (law-abiding) people like me - and there's a LOT of us

 

[Sparx]

Without me trawling through all the pages in this thread can someone tell me what exactly is the problem with ID cards?

Do some of you like to think you are James Bond or something, do you think the government doesn't already have shit loads of info on you anyway? Also what is the problem with having them if it stops dodgy people walking the streets freely? What is the problem with them if it stops asian (NOT RACIST!) taxi drivers using 1 driving licence between 27 of them?

Don't understand what the problem is at all. Not one of us is important enough or special enough to have a logical say in this and isn't it pretty much the same as the photo driving licence? My one problem would be the money spent on implementing this scheme could be used on hospitals, cheaper cigs or cheaper petrol

What happens when that information gets into the wrong hands? Imagine what would have happened if Hitler had his hands on such information. Or hackers?

A bit extreme i know but you get the point, the government have already proved they cant be trusted with information

 

[Trem]

What happens when that information gets into the wrong hands? Imagine what would have happened if Hitler had his hands on such information. Or hackers?

A bit extreme i know but you get the point, the government have already proved they cant be trusted with information

But isn't that paranoia to the max?

Have you never bought anything online or by mail order?

I would trust the (awful) government more than Dodgy Dave who works at Dominoes Pizza for example.

I just can't get my head around why people are so against it, it may be my age but I just don't get the emotion against it. Not saying its wrong to oppose it but surely there is bigger fish to fry, like getting rid of Labour for starters THEN worry about it.

 

[dysfunction]

Actually I think there have been plenty of facts, you just choose not to believe them.



No, but the rights to free assembly have been reduced, and why exactly do you agree that we shouldn't be allowed to demonstrate outside the centre of our democracy? Because someone might blow it up? Because it holds up traffic? Or because MPs don't want to be bothered with us peons? None of these things are valid reasons as far as I can see. The point is, we had certain freedoms and now they are being eroded. And yes, we did have a "right" not to be stopped and searched without just cause (a right that was hard-fought to enshrine in law as recently as the 80s by the way), and that too has been taken away, so know we're at the mercy of any policeman who feels like its a slow say and he fancies giving someone a hard time. Probably not a problem for us white middle-class folks, maybe more of an issue if you're of a certain ethnicity.



Because I don't see why I should. Just because you don't see an issue with it (and lets face it, you grew up in a repressive regime, you take it for granted), doesn't mean that it isn't anathema to most Britons.



That's just misdirection. All of the above can be abused by government (which is what we're talking about here) but we have an opportunity to exercise our democratic rights if we see that happening (e.g. tax, NHS etc are usually manifesto promises), we have no such opportunity here, and in fact its been introduced, like so many nuLab abuses, through "regulation", rather than legislation/Manifesto commitment, which is probably why so few of us here trust our lords and masters not to abuse this; they're abusing the legal process to ensure the very implementation of ID cards, so why should they be trusted in their operation?

I agree with the security aspects of preventing demonstrating outside parliament.
You can still protest there but just need to have authorisation first.

The "right" not to be stopped and searched without just cause...well you could still be stopped and searched so its no exactly a right thats been taken away is it? If you believe you were stopped and searched unreasonably, or you weren’t treated fairly or with respect, you can complain to the police/solicitor/CAB/IPCC...

Well, all I'm doing is expressing my opinion. Yes I don't have any issues with ID cards. Thats all I have been saying. I don't think they are a bad thing. Am I not entitled to this opinion?? Do i not have free speech to have an opposing view to the OP? Is it an anathema to most Britons? I'd say its pretty much an even mix...

Its not misdirection. The majority voted this government in and you will soon have the opportunity to vote them out and get a "new" lot to stop this ID process...if thats what you want.

Nice post DaGaffer

I CBA with this anymore tho. What happened to people caring for each other? It's obvious that some people are so vehemently opposed to this (good reasons or not) that it would be an unacceptable blight on their lives to force them to have ID cards. I, for one, will be exiled from my country of birth (and therefore my family) shortly before they force me to submit.

Those who are "for" ID cards clearly don't give a shit about (law-abiding) people like me - and there's a LOT of us

Which country would you go to?

 

[DaGaffer]

I agree with the security aspects of preventing demonstrating outside parliament.
You can still protest there but just need to have authorisation first.

...which is almost impossible to get, which means a de facto ban on demonstrations outside the "Mother of Parliaments". Ooh the irony.

The "right" not to be stopped and searched without just cause...well you could still be stopped and searched so its no exactly a right thats been taken away is it? If you believe you were stopped and searched unreasonably, or you weren’t treated fairly or with respect, you can complain to the police/solicitor/CAB/IPCC...

There's a difference in intent. A cop wouldn't hassle people randomly before because he'd have a shitload of paperwork to do to back up his suspicions, now he doesn't have to worry about that, which opens the system to human factors in a police force that's endemically racist. It doesn't matter that I can complain after the fact, I shouldn't be hassled in the first place.

Well, all I'm doing is expressing my opinion. Yes I don't have any issues with ID cards. Thats all I have been saying. I don't think they are a bad thing. Am I not entitled to this opinion?? Do i not have free speech to have an opposing view to the OP? Is it an anathema to most Britons? I'd say its pretty much an even mix...

Ask the right question of the public and I'm pretty sure the majority would object. The government would never ask the public those questions though.

Its not misdirection. The majority voted this government in and you will soon have the opportunity to vote them out and get a "new" lot to stop this ID process...if thats what you want.

Except that unless one of the other parties actually makes scrapping ID a manifesto promise, who do you vote for? This is precisely why there's been the growth in regulation v legislation, so its off the books from a democratic pov.

Which country would you go to?

Well, I've gone to Ireland. probably no less corrupt (in fact on first impressions I'd say more so), but as a guest in this country I feel less...passionate...about political shenanigans than I do in the country of my birth.

 

[MYstIC G]

Without me trawling through all the pages in this thread can someone tell me what exactly is the problem with ID cards?

Basically Trem, for me it's like this:

Firstly, at the moment they do have stuff about me, I have a passport, I have a driving licence, etc. which is all fine. If I want to renew my passport however, the dogsbody behind the counter has no need to know if I've got a driving licence or not, no need to have any access to that information, no need to have access to my medical records, etc, etc. all of which could end up being linked to this one card.

Secondly, they'll make even bigger fuck ups and/or abuses of power. We've already got terror laws being used to monitor peoples bins? I'll bet dollars to doughnuts (doughnuts being worth more) that the officers who did that still work for the local authority. What will happen to you when some dipshit files a death certificate against your record but its actually someone else with the same name? Oh and fuck off in advance to anyone who will come out with a "there are checks and balances" line, I asked my council to update my council tax account details and they put me down on 4 completely different and random properties that were nothing to do with me.

Thirdly this will no doubt lead to more of the "lets make that a fine" culture. This is a faff example but say the DVLA decide it's a great idea to cross check all the DVLA licence pics with all the Passport pics in case you're wearing glasses in your passport photo. Bingo, you flag up, £100 fine cos you're supposed to tell them about stuff like that. I mean we don't live in a society where anyone thinks up something sensible, say like making opticians take your driving licence number and send the prescription info to the DVLA for processing? I mean personally I figure that making sure everyone who drives can actually see would be quite an important factor in road safety?

ID cards, just like everything else, will become something that you have to have, will have to pay for, will have minimal practical uses for joe public (how many bank accounts do you open a day/week/month/year?), are just as likely to be circumvented as anything else and will eventually be used as a means to fine your ass for the most insignificant bullshit.

Other than that, no they're great, I hope the future generations enjoy the "sorry jimmy, no 18th birthday present, we could only afford your compulsory ID card" and the version that comes out with some sort of in built GPS tracking... WOOOO! roll on progress...

 

[Trem]

Basically Trem, for me it's like this:

Firstly, at the moment they do have stuff about me, I have a passport, I have a driving licence, etc. which is all fine. If I want to renew my passport however, the dogsbody behind the counter has no need to know if I've got a driving licence or not, no need to have any access to that information, no need to have access to my medical records, etc, etc. all of which could end up being linked to this one card.

Secondly, they'll make even bigger fuck ups and/or abuses of power. We've already got terror laws being used to monitor peoples bins? I'll bet dollars to doughnuts (doughnuts being worth more) that the officers who did that still work for the local authority. What will happen to you when some dipshit files a death certificate against your record but its actually someone else with the same name? Oh and fuck off in advance to anyone who will come out with a "there are checks and balances" line, I asked my council to update my council tax account details and they put me down on 4 completely different and random properties that were nothing to do with me.

Thirdly this will no doubt lead to more of the "lets make that a fine" culture. This is a faff example but say the DVLA decide it's a great idea to cross check all the DVLA licence pics with all the Passport pics in case you're wearing glasses in your passport photo. Bingo, you flag up, £100 fine cos you're supposed to tell them about stuff like that. I mean we don't live in a society where anyone thinks up something sensible, say like making opticians take your driving licence number and send the prescription info to the DVLA for processing? I mean personally I figure that making sure everyone who drives can actually see would be quite an important factor in road safety?

ID cards, just like everything else, will become something that you have to have, will have to pay for, will have minimal practical uses for joe public (how many bank accounts do you open a day/week/month/year?), are just as likely to be circumvented as anything else and will eventually be used as a means to fine your ass for the most insignificant bullshit.

Other than that, no they're great, I hope the future generations enjoy the "sorry jimmy, no 18th birthday present, we could only afford your compulsory ID card" and the version that comes out with some sort of in built GPS tracking... WOOOO! roll on progress...

Well thats making lots more sense to me now.

After reading that then I am with you, this fucking government and its ways to make money is infuriating.

Cheers Meg, very good post (for a bummer)

 

[MYstIC G]

Well thats making lots more sense to me now.

After reading that then I am with you, this fucking government and its ways to make money is infuriating.

Cheers Meg, very good post (for a bummer)

Not good enough for you to give me any rep though, tight bastard! (well, that's what Mrs Trem says you are anyway )

But it will all be great, drop a crisp packet and it'll be either:

1. Littering, £50 fine, details for fine taken from your ID card
2. Littering, £50 fine... you've not got your ID card sir, that's a separate offence and is £100 fine, details taken manually and verified by wifi link to ID card database

Don't forget that'll be without the serious wedge you'll already be paying the council in tax for the street sweeper, who'll probably just leave the packet on the floor anyway

 

[dysfunction]

lol Meg...

Also I can't believe you managed to change Trem's mind so quickly! Rep for that!

 

[Trem]

lol Meg...

Also I can't believe you managed to change Trem's mind so quickly! Rep for that!

I'm anybodys to be honest.

 

[Uara]

all you need to do is post a clear thought argument about ID cards and he's putty in your hands!

 

[Trem]

all you need to do is post a clear thought argument about ID cards and he's putty in your hands!

That is actually the truth, I could see it from the peoples point of view when it was done how Meg did it.

You have to hand it to him when he puts his mind to something he comes across as much less of a spacker. Well done Meg -12 fannykick.

 

[Scouse]

all you need to do is post a clear thought argument about how ID cards will be used to take even more cash off you and he's putty in your hands!

Fixed

 

[Scouse]

Sorry to ressurect but this is mildly interesting:

No, seriously, the Beeb isn't involved in "expectations modification" at all.

Thanks to the unique way the Beeb is funded we can pay for our own propaganda eh?