WHY Q3 SUCKS MY ASS!!!

[old.Teddyboy]

I know there have been, and will be lots in the future, arguements about q2 vs q3. Similar to the q1 v q2 arguement, but i found the quakworld players never seemed to say why q1 was better to q2.

Whenever there are arguements of this sort, it tends to be the l33t assholes who are the ones who argue most. The reason being WINNING IS EVERYTHING!!

Well imho this is all bullshit. I certainly play the game for one thing only, FUN. And in q2 i certainly did that. From playing DM, CTF, LMCTF and RA2 there was always fun.

You have a chance to win if you played the game strategically. IE stick together, tool up before going for flag, making sure you had support etc.

We only have to look at the latest figures on servers. HL Counter strike has more servers than q1, q2, q3, UT, SOF put together. So does this tell us something?
I think it does.

A lot of people like to play a team game and win a game based on strategy and skill, and there seems to be a lot of satisfaction from this.

So where does q3 fall down?
Well for a start, i think the introduction of rockets at a q1 speed is not such a bad thing but ffs the amount of splash damage they do is way to powerful.

Anyone going on a server nowadays only needs to spam rockets and i guarantee they will get a fair amount of kills. If you increase the speed, ffs reduce the splash damage. I have no qualms about a direct hit coz there is a certain amount of skill involed, and you deserve to get that kill for your efforts.

The lightening gun is another FUCK UP beyond belief! I argue many times that this is too powerful but im told that its hard to hit some one. BULLSHIT! If you have a straight line of lightning you only need to strafe and you will certainly hit your foe. There is no skill, maybe luck tho. Its not like using a railgun where you have to hit where the person is, not the vacinity.

Plasma. Well, talk about putting fucking eye candy before play. This is one m0f0 of a weapon. It shoots way to fast and it blocks the opponent from seeing its target coz of these lovely 32 bit bollox coming towards you. We are going into the rpg side of gaming now where there are shield spells that stop an opponent hitting you. THE GAMEPLAY AND FUN HAS BEEN FUCKED RIGHT UP.

id imho have made a game that is basically instagib. With no sheilds, power armour etc, anyone can spam any weapon and get kills with even the most skilled player not having a chance.

I can say one other thing. There have been recently 2 outstanding mods created. One ALLIANCE, and the other RA3. Both of which are outstanding efforts by both teams but they are let down by one thing only. They use the q3 engine. What i mean by this, is the style of play for the mod, ie ra2 is not carried over to the q3 engined games. In ra2 there are many instances where a 6v6 will end up with maybe a 1v2 or something similar, but this never happens on ra3 coz you will get a group of 2-3 poeple using lightening or plasma and totally wipe out the people in that area. Therefore the spirit of the game and the fun has been fucked up the ass.

I would suggest that the servers would reduce the spash damage on rocks (i have no probs with direct hits), slow the speed of plasma, reduce damage of lightening etc as this would make it a more enjoyable game. But the problem is, that is the default that id set, and for that they are wankers coz they had 2 very successful games and fucked this one right up.

I actually belive that more than 50% of q1 and q2 players think q3a is shite! Please let me know if you you think different.

Finally, there is a game there somewhere. Graphics are great, and pings seem great but ffs make it more skilled/strategic instead of spammy lame ass.

I feel id have sold us out with eyecandy, and unfortunately, forgotten about gameplay. I HATE Q3 in its present form. I am told to get used to it. This is bullshit. A good game grabs you by the bollox, you shouldnt have to dangle your nads until you get a bite!

[This message has been edited by Teddyboy (edited 29 July 2000).]

 

[old.Comatosed]

For those that can't be bothered to read the above message, it roughly translates to:

"Quake3 is crap because I'm shite at it"

 

[old.Gibz]

/me chuckles

Ted U Pussy!!

I erm disagree Tedster, as u may have guessed. I'm not sure why u think Q3 is any different to the way Q2 and Q1 was really in terms of assholes, winning, arguing, fun.

"We only have to look at the latest figures on servers. HL Counter strike has more servers than q1, q2, q3, UT, SOF put together. So does this tell us something?"

It erm tells me that more llamas play CS than the other games. (soz CS d00ds).

"you have a chance to win if you played the game strategically"

Erm u still do.

The amount of splash damage imo is pretty reasonable. Ive played RA3 a fair bit now, and seems pretty ok. Rox are pretty strong, and it means in some games like DM you will need to work on diff strategies to the old Q2 days, but still pretty similar at the end of the day. The weapons ARE more balanced in Q3 than any of the predecessors again imo.

Personally I don't like Q3DM anymore, just don't like the style really, but RA3 and Alliance 0wn. Alliance have reduced the plasma blob size a bit and colour coded wep fire which seems to help with any plasma spam issues, kinda wish vanilla Q3 had that as well, but it's not gonna stop me playing it.

LG, hmm tis really the equivalent of the Q2 chaingun using the same analogy? Was more powerful really in fact, as it doesn't have the added lag that is default on the LG. (it has a lag of 100ms encoded I think btw). Hitting with the LG is not an issue, you need to track still with it.

Basically I just find the weapons more powerful in general, but then again they are more balanced. Weapon selection is probably more key now in Q3 than used to be in Q2. (Never really played much Q1)

Q3 is FUN, I think Id have made their mistakes with it, especially leaving the grapple out as default. But now with some decent mods actually being out you have the choice. I don't play vanilla Id DM or CTF anymore really, but play more RA3, Alliance, CCTF. The choice is there. If you think killing is too easy, try and take some grapple monkeys out in Q3.

Id did really sell just an engine, I personally think the main problems with vanilla Q3 is that the maps are all 2nd rate, and if I made one of em and posted em out there, ppl would think they are shite. Again tho, there are now some decent maps and mods out there which bypass the shiter sides that Id introduced.

Anyway, this game has now grabbed me by the bollx with RA3, Alliance, CCTF...just took a while.

Seems like u're just too old now fer it now Ted

 

[old.Gibz]

Oh...and used some paragraphs next time!!

 

[old.Teddyboy]

Comatosed - the idea of a message board is to discuss issues, not give people your interpretation of what i am trying to say.
I would prefer you to challange what im saying rather just tell everyone to ignore it

 

[old.Comatosed]

You didn't post in a style that invited discussion, it was a request for flaming.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
ffs make it more skilled/strategic instead of spammy lame ass.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Basically you think Quake3 requires little/no skill in comparison to the other games you mention (QW/Q2/HL/UT/CS). Get onto a duel or teamDM server with the top UK players and see if you can come back with the same conclusion.

As is always said when these 'discussions' arise (and this one has been done to death too many times already):

IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, DON'T PLAY IT.

Simple enough.

 

[old.Necro]

Ted - if you make a post that is along the lines of `Q3 is fucked up the arse and requires no skill or strategy' in a Q3 forum, your unlikley to get good reception, let alone a good discussion.

Anyone who thinks strategy is nothing in Q3 has never experienced proper leagueplay.

 

[old.Rv Mentalist]

q3 fucking sux ass

 

[Teaser]

An intelligent and well thought out reply by Mental again :]


T

 

[old.EmryS]

Well, I will probably get flamed for this, but what the hell. I have been playing Q3 online for about a month now, and up until quite recently I have been enjoying it (although I have to say, not to the same degree that I used to enjoy QW).

However, I recently started playing RA3, and I did like this a lot more. Unfortunately, it made me realise how shite Q3A really is. To be blunt: RA3 was actually reasonably exciting to play, and made it quite apparant how dull normal Q3A is.

Then just at the weekend there, I went back on the QW servers, and it was like a breath of fresh air. Being able to play a game where I could make things happen at the same speed as my reactions was just fucking brill.

In Q3A I am constantly thinking: "cmon stoopid gun ffs fire" i.e. having to wait. Now I know a lot of you will flame saying: that's the style of certain weapons etc., but at the end of the day, Q3A is an action game, not a bloody strategy, and by definition, action games are (meant to be) reaction dependant.

Watching a railgun duel in Q3A is liking spectating on some bizarre turns-based game.

If you look at all the old classic arcade games: Defender, Galaxians etc., the heroes on those games were the people with crazy reactions.

That's not to say that strategy has no place in action games, it's just that in order to fully realise one's potential, there must be a high degree of reaction-based skill involved.

So to cut a long story short... Q3A for me is less of an action game, and more of a "sit at the other end of the map and rail". It's less confrontational than it should be. Action gaming is a contact sport if you see what I mean.

Now I know that some of you will rant on about the skill of the top players etc., and how their playing style is quite "in your face", but to me that only proves the point that the majority of players fall into the category of campy/hidey, because that's what Q3A gameplay naturally lends itself to.

I await your flames (or if you're ex-QW players, your agreement).

 

[old.Gib]

Hmmm

I must admit, wep switching times bug me to the point where I want the gun to fire faster, i.e. fire a rail, switch to rox and then get killed waiting But I guess I'm learning to live with that, was kinda slightly worse in Q2 even. Annoying, but probably a fair option under the circumstances of the weps that are available to you. Good railers have no problem hitting their target and to make the reload and switch times faster would probably end up just creating more spam.

The way it is for me now feels about right really. In RA3 I think they've tried to include a balance of maps, some of them are wider open spaced allowing for more of a rail based game, and others more close combat, meaning rox, shotgun etc take a bigger part.

On a busy server, reactions are key, often you are thrown in with *cough* 3 or 4 other ppl close to you, and the firing rate on a R-L is pretty quick really to create some chaos. Quicker firing does not necessarily increase the action of the game, in fact it can take more away from it, as slower firing will actually force you to be more accurate with each weapon. Galaxians and defender (not sure ths should be being compared here hehe) always really relied on a 'with this spread of fire I'll kill this m0f0' rather than 'this single shot will take the bad boy out'. The 'spread of fire' scenario is something I think would be detrimental to the game (aka UT rox *spit*)

I agree tho that the vanilla style of Q3 isn't really up to scratch, for me this is the first time in a game that all the mods are truly outclassing the default game that is offered.

Gibz aka Frak!

[This message has been edited by Gib (edited 07 August 2000).]

 

[old.Gib]

Oh..and good to see Teddy on the RA3 servers muhahahah.

 

[old.EmryS]

That's a fair point Gibz - about faster firing meaning the need for less accuracy.

Although in my experience, in QW anyway, the really good players are the ones who are accurate and fast, and IMO, that requires more skill than being accurate and slow.

 

[old.Delboy]

What Comatose said first time.......

Not a fan of Vanilla Q3a, I'm more into the two mods mentioned above and Challenge Pro Mode.

Still, one thing I think is missing is the Grittiness that Q2 has, the sounds, the feel as you hit the ground *uNF*....etc. In short, Q3a feels "fluffy" and "cosy" by comparison.

Oh well, back to Q2 for a bit.

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Most people are pretty decent. It's just that some of them end up looking like Prats online

[This message has been edited by Delboy (edited 07 August 2000).]

 

[old.DNM]

Personally I think RA3 has given Quake 3 a much needed kick up the arse. It's all I play now, and has returned us to the splendid days where servers are packed, people (generally) use their proper names and everyone has top fun.

Last night on BW 1 (I think) we had some excellent games, with some real nerve wracking 1vs1 situations in clan arena. Rarely were either side whitewashing the other. People shifted sides if they became uneven, and it restored my faith that publics CAN be good. Now, I don't think it's just me, but I cannot go back to Q2. It's sluggish and crude by comparison. I have tried to rekindle my old love for Q2CTF but that has fallen by the wayside in preference for the frenetic pace and eye candy that is Q3.

There's an argument about plasma and lightning gun here. Personally I rarely use the LG, but I am fond of using the plagma gun to finish someone off. Ultimately they are both in the game, both can be counteracted the majority of the time and I fail to see them being a problem.

Praise be that the BFG isn't on!

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&lt;&lt;&lt; http://www.deadalfs.co.uk &gt;&gt;&gt;

 

[old.Gib]

Hehe, I would never say or suggest that those people that played QW were any less accurate, I'm kinda more talking about general spam, i.e. I can just imagine the scene where llamas are just firing r0x everywhere. Q3 already suffers a little from the spam scenario, especially where weapons as a resource is not an issue like in RA3 or Id CTF.

I do think Q3 has that compromise. It's a faster game than Q2, and imo needs you to be quick in both reactions and thought of wep selections etc.

I do think tho for ppl to appreciate Q3 in its finest you have to give up Q2. People have been so used to Q2 for the last few years, that everything about the weapons and sounds etc is instinct to them, and the change in some of the firing style etc, does not really come across until you've been playing it for some time. My initial reactions were mixed with Q3, looked nice, but for me the weps all seemed lame and felt laggy to fire cept for fox. However now I've been playing for a while and no longer play Q2 I've got used to that style. (never used to play QW). Now if I go back to Q2, it feels a truly awful game, tho I know it never was.

And as for the 'grit' of Q3, same goes again, I thought the same at first, but now Q2 feels like its the one lacking that grit. The only one thing I still feel that is inferior tho is the railgun model and sound, but I think thats partly because I had my own wep sound pak with beefer up wavs. I reckon if I went back to the vanilla rail sound, I may not be that impressed. Rail trail and sound is the only thing I miss from Q2 ths days.

 

[old.Gib]

Just to add tho...I do think without a decent specced PC and being an LPB, you can't appreciate the finer elements of Q3 which I think is a shame as well.

Gibz aka Frak!

 

[old.Delboy]

Be good to setup another Poll to see how people compare the feels of the different games. Just to wsee what result would come of it. Either a simple one question or say 5 questions to see where each person is coming from.

I'd just want to see how many ppl agree/disagree about how Q3 feels. To me the graphics, sounds , and general feel are all "soft" without the gritiness I go on about. I've played it since the beta, but not totally given Q2 up. Managed to give up Q2 for a month before going back into both.

Anyway, be back later, work to do.

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Most people are pretty decent. It's just that some of them end up looking like Prats online

 

[old.Kez]

at first I hated the LG, because of its stupid lag (I believe its about 100ms, so on a 200 ping you have to act like a 300 ping, f'ing stupid id cunt0rs) but as with everything (being a HPW) I've learnt to predict ahead better as time goes on, and do prefer it to the Plasma in some situations. (mainly because I need an instant hit, not something that travels and ends up there a second later )

I personally am not that fond of RA3 mainly due to the fact Q3 wasn't designed in the same kind of way, and LPBs to me seem to dominate more in RA3 than in vanilla Q3 due to they can get a quick rail in, and there's no chance to 'recover' (get health etc) from it

oh well.

 

[old.Necro]

The most annoying thing is there is a noticable delay (on HPB connects) between pressing fire and the weapon actually firing. This delay is not noticable on LPB connects.

OK, i have managed to (partially) compensate by using movement prediction, but that can only help you so far when your opposition is mostly LPBs of notionally same skill level.

I came to the conclusion that if Q3 is to be fun, a LPB connect is MANDATORY. No wonder the NI Quake scene has largly reverted to QW.

 

[old.Delboy]

Thats the thing, Quake3 acn be fun, but atm its not the adrenaline rush the Quake2 was, even with Quake2, for me it was missing something the Quake1 has.

I'd prolly say that it was more to do with me getn fed up with Quake series/FPS Games and looking for something else. But where else is there an online game that has the good animations and network connect?

Vanilla Quake3 as it stood was a general game for everyone and their dog, which prolly made it less appealing to veterans.

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Most people are pretty decent. It's just that some of them end up looking like Prats online

 

[old.Gib]

Yup RA3 imo is what Q3 standard should have been. It has brought new life to Q3, and yup, good to see the servers always full.

RA3 adds that grittiness back imo, and if u cant keep up in it, you will soon be dead.

On the RA3 and LPB front, I actually see some of the HPWs doing pretty well in it, but I think in general those that do better, avoid being in wide open spaces where the rail has the edge. If you try and draw them into closer rox proximity its not quite so bad, but as always lpbs do have that edge, let alone the increase in the number of slpbs. Remember just to try and take away their advantage as much as possible.

On the weapon useage side, it's always a bit of a grey area. I don't normally use the LG unless someone else does first, just for the fact that it feels too much of an advantage if I come across a HPW. In general I just try and match what the other person uses, which sometimes means I'll die first while they switch to LG but I can live with that.

I do think ppl that straight away use LG are a bit lame tho...mainly for the fact that I wouldnt just want to play RA3 with everyone just using the LG which is one of the most potent weps. Same reason as it was a bit frowned upon in RA2 if people started a match with the chaingun or hyperblaster straight away.

For those that don't really like the vanilla Id effort, I would strongly suggest trying RA3, CCTF and Alliance, all very good mods, with a totally different feel to what most ppl think of as Q3.



[This message has been edited by Gib (edited 08 August 2000).]

 

[old.Delboy]

Agreed, those are the mods I waited for once I got bored with Vanilla Q3.

Aftern playing Q2 for ages with LPB's and JAnet Users you get the idea of avoiding wide open space and clingnig to walls, i.e. not running down the centre of a corridor.

It's the space type maps where I'll get wiped out by LPB's who KNOW what they're doing, if theyre casual players I haev a chance. But tight spaces and corners give HPW a better chance.

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Most people are pretty decent. It's just that some of them end up looking like Prats online

 

[Embattle]

I not a lover of Q3 but so fucking what, if there are people who enjoy playing it good luck to them.

 

[old.Gibz]

wtf u on about, u really think anyone here is playing and enjoying Q3 because of prize money? duh

Time to book yerself in for that frontal lobotomy u've been promising yerself fer so long.

 

[old.Kryst]

They dont enjoy shit about vq3 besides the $$$. When q3 came out everyone was like...GHEY! Then the tourneys started, that offered money, and all of a sudden theyre defending q3, wtf?

S-E-L-L-O-U-T-?-?-?

 

[kryt]

For my Tuppence worth :
I don't like Quake 3 in its standard form. It's shit. FFA's are ok, not very fun, not very skill involving. TP is fucking dire : friendly fire, i mean eh? TP hardly exists, there are very few maps suited to it exceptions to dm6 and 7 maybe. No weapon dropping? ID give us this feature and 4 years with which to perfect our weap dropping skillz to share with our team - It doesn't take any wonder.. Watch a team like FED run around swapping guns without a thought.. it clearly is a large part of the game missing in my opinion, instead of standing round a spawned RL shouting in teamsay "Theres a gun where im standing, yay! who wants it??? Finders keepers!!" - i mean, oooh dear Ive been in two Q3 DM clans, and since i really cant stand Q3 in its standard form, i thought fuck it. Q3 CTF is ok, but public servers are usually full of llamas that stand in the NME base with their flag, so i dont play that much. Ra3 however is gods gift to Q3, and has alone made Q3 worth what i actually paid for it. Theres a few things, like the weap switching times, the plasma gun being a bit OTT and map 6 being complete shit, but otherwise its a damned good game worth every penny of Q3a alone.
I'm still primarily a Q2 player, i used to play a lot of Ra2, but i now prefer Ra3. Q2 DM and TP is still a lot more like what it should be, Q3 fails to satisfy me there im afraid.

Rant over

[Cw.F]Kryten

 

[old.Mr Niceguy]

NICE RANT KRYT

yeah no weapons-dropin Q3 TP does suck
a fair bit of ass...it takes away from the
team spirit that makes TDM F(_)N 2 play!

it dont matter that mods r played more than the original....as long as the mods
r fr33 , natch

i dont know what 2 think about the changes
in gameplay iin the quake series so
thats Y im recreating all the Q3 maps in
Q1!
ILL LET U ALL NO HOW IT TURNS OUT

--NG

 

[old.Gibz]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kryten:
For my Tuppence worth :
I don't like Quake 3 in its standard form. It's shit. FFA's are ok, not very fun, not very skill involving. TP is fucking dire : friendly fire, i mean eh? TP hardly exists, there are very few maps suited to it exceptions to dm6 and 7 maybe. No weapon dropping? ID give us this feature and 4 years with which to perfect our weap dropping skillz to share with our team - It doesn't take any wonder.. Watch a team like FED run around swapping guns without a thought.. it clearly is a large part of the game missing in my opinion, instead of standing round a spawned RL shouting in teamsay "Theres a gun where im standing, yay! who wants it??? Finders keepers!!" - i mean, oooh dear Ive been in two Q3 DM clans, and since i really cant stand Q3 in its standard form, i thought fuck it. Q3 CTF is ok, but public servers are usually full of llamas that stand in the NME base with their flag, so i dont play that much. Ra3 however is gods gift to Q3, and has alone made Q3 worth what i actually paid for it. Theres a few things, like the weap switching times, the plasma gun being a bit OTT and map 6 being complete shit, but otherwise its a damned good game worth every penny of Q3a alone.
I'm still primarily a Q2 player, i used to play a lot of Ra2, but i now prefer Ra3. Q2 DM and TP is still a lot more like what it should be, Q3 fails to satisfy me there im afraid.

Rant over

[Cw.F]Kryten<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All I would say is....

'Not very skill involving'...erm, maybe not on your side, but don't include that for others. If u think $k, UNR etc use less skills than before I would like to hear your reasoning.

'friendly fire'...u talk about less skill and then mention friendly fire? Erm no offense, but it takes more skill to avoid your teammates than hit em (unless there's some of em u dont like ). Personally I think they should change CTF to the same format also, but I know others will diagree.

'weapon dropping'...It could also be argued that it takes more skill and tactics to get your players tooled up without it rather than camping a weapon and distributing. Tho I personally like wep drop.

"Theres a gun where im standing, yay! who wants it??? Finders keepers!!" Obviously you have not mastered team DM yet as you would not see the l33t3st clans doing this in general.

Personally I'm not a lover of DM anymore, but I started losing my interest in Q2 DM. RA3 and CCTF do give Q3 new life imo, but not for the reasons people seem to be mentioning.

 

[vGo:Spectre]

Hmmm... interesting reading.

I played Q2 for 3 years or whatever, mostly TDM as I found CTF to much pissing about. =] Having moved on to Q3 TDM I'm thoroughly enjoying it atm, it's really brought back that '5 mins till our league match, eek, gotta go pebble dash the bog' kind of feeling. =]

To much rock splash? Maybe it's just me but there seems to be less rock splash than the q2 rl, or at least the q2 rl is much more powerful and takes less hits to take sum1 out. Imo the q2 and q3 rlers are practically incomparable because of how the operate - the q2 rl is a slow powerfull prediction and placement affair, where as the q3 rl is more of a rock-cannon that needs a series of accurately placed rocks in a high speed group to get the job done.

LG to powerful? Hmmm, maybe I just haven't suffered anybody who uses it extensively yet, but I don't think it's more powerful than it's closest q2 cousin the chainy. Mopping with the lg and pg is incredibly annoying, especially in duels or ra where imo it's downright lame (i refuse to use the chainy to sweep up in q2 too - little skill involved), but it's a tactic thats there to be used. Also I'd agree the pg is kind of blinding, but if you keep you head I often find people are very careless with their movement whilst using it as they expect their opponent to not be able to effctively fight back. =] This makes for some nice rail kills. =]

Overall I actually think q3 is quite nice out of the box. When I first tried it when it came out, being still on a modem I found it incredibly frustrating trying to get used to the completely different weapon balance (compared to q2) whilst dealing with the lag, but having picked it up again recently with my spanky cable connex I've broken through the 'argh it's not q2 it's shite' barrier and am really getting into Q3 TDM. With FF on and different tactics needed to keep the key weapons it's a very nice change from Q2 TDM. And I find I've got a lot of skills the QWers don't seem to have so much - ability to get from a to b quickly, do the hard jumps, conserve ammo and concentrate on making each shot count etc. Agreed the maps suck a bit, but there are some nice custom ones out there now and they're being used in the BWQ3L so it's not a problem.

Overall I like Q3 for it's QW style speed and physics but with a touch of the Q2 mentality and gameplay style. There are a hell of a lot of clans in the BWQ3L for TDM, so if it's that poor why are all these people playing it? ;] It's not for everybody but then what game is? Maybe I'm just one of those strange rare creatures that lives and breathes TDM and thinks no other mod is as fun. ;]

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-Nbd-Spectre
Nightbreed clan leader