Why Oh Why?

J

.Jos.

Guest
Why on Earth can't Infiltrators be accepted into groups?

Examples:

The group is fine how it is (And one more set of weapons wouldn't make it better?)
We don't need an Infil (well a fair point, not having an Infil won't kill you but annoying nonetheless)
We'd rather have a Healer/Tank/Support Class/Serious Illness (These things aren't available right now, learn to make do)

We can't be that bad surely...

We can tell you if theres a mob scout coming,
We can poison the mobs with debuffs, DoTs and snares in case the group needs to run,
We do a nice line in heavy damage with PA,
We have various lengths/types of stuns and bleeds,
We have 2 weapons to do more damage,
We ... um ... aren't Scouts :p

I have heard it said many times that Infils use Buffbots in RvR so they can kill unheeded and that "every" Infil has one...I think it's much more likely that they have developed special relationships with their buffbots because they are the only people who group with them every time they ask.
Getting into a group is very very hard for an infil ( :wall: ), please :help: them by allowing them to group and maybe it'd go towards reducing the buffbot numbers. I personally don't have one yet, but soon, with the advent of BT Broadband in the place I live, and the means to make one, it is a very attractive option.

Please don't tell me to solo, I can't afford the top nick equipment need to solo, the downtime is cripplingly painful with no way to speed it up and I am sure most of you would much rather group once in a while anyway.

On a side note I have recently made a guild which I am recruiting for, I take anyone at the moment, regardless of past experience and if you are a first-time player, I don't mind giving some advice - Just look for the Phoenix Syndicate.
 
S

-Shaz-

Guest
Groups tend to go dmg (caster) -> aggro holders (tank) -> healers (indeed)

Infis can't do any of these at pve level, I've never seen an infi use poisons in a group, the mobs die too fast, they can't hold aggro as well as a plate tank as they get hit kinda hard and an infis dw isn't too high so the 2 weap thing is not even worth including :p. Not to mention the fact that pierce kinda sucks in pve.

Apart from that fact, most groups I've had in pve have room for any class as the last spot :p

DAoC xping is basically camp a spot and pull till you ding. Repeat as required. For this reason scouting skills etc that you may require in other games such as EQ (thus the reason for inviting a class with said skill) just aren't worth it in DAoC.
 
F

- Fedaykin -

Guest
1. Because there are tons of infiltrators about atm
2. Infiltrators DONT bring anything to the group, they are a mana drain due to low hps and crap armour
3. Infiltrators class defining abilitys are relatively useless (same as 2. really - but they dont get chants like palas, dmg + defense like arms etc)
4. Infiltrators VERY rarely want to group in RvR, so why should anyone group with them...
5. infiltrators are a SOLO class, why u ask? well same as 1. & 2. - Sorcerers bring crowd control to a group, clerics + friars, healing, paladins are a support class, armsmen are pure tank, theurgists have pbt, minstrels have downtime reducers etc etc .. ask youself really what an inf has to offer?
 
O

old.Wildfire

Guest
Mobs really aren't an issue
You never get time to do other peoples' weapons
You rarely get to use PA
Most of which are second or later in chains
2 weapons != more damage (compare to merc/2h/pole/nuker)
Scouts > Infils

no offence :S
 
J

.Jos.

Guest
Originally posted by MaxPower

4. Infiltrators VERY rarely want to group in RvR, so why should anyone group with them...


That could go on forever - No-one groups infils in PvE so they group with no-one in RvR so no-one groups with them in PvE =P
 
F

froler-mid

Guest
Originally posted by old.Wildfire
Mobs really aren't an issue
You never get time to do other peoples' weapons
You rarely get to use PA
Most of which are second or later in chains
2 weapons != more damage (compare to merc/2h/pole/nuker)
Scouts > Infils

no offence :S


i outdamage most tanks....

but yes, infils are a very much a solo class, PVE AND PVP. level one, and u are gonna solo most of the time(if not ALL the time..).

Infils need something too bring too the group, rvr-wise, and pve-wise imo.

how bout a 'insta- nearsight spell' for rvr ..... (nullify casters is infils big 'job' )

-no timer on 'applying poisons' = more use of all poisons

+the regular ones, fic CS line etc ;>


:m00:
 
F

- Fedaykin -

Guest
Originally posted by froler-mid


i outdamage most tanks....

:m00:

Infs do hit hard, but they get aggro which they cant take :( thus creating a mana drain on healer

maybe with sorc mana regen buffs it may get better for infs..
 
H

Hit ^_^

Guest
infil do more dmg >gets more aggro.
more aggo=more dmg on infil then a "tank" as it uses leather(10%abs) then plate(34%abs).
more dmg taken=more healing for the cleric
more healing for the cleric=less power to heal whit.
low power after each fight=more downtime.

and allso they dont have Guard and Protect wich is Very important.

their venom is allso resisted by high lvl mobs 90%.

im rvr on the other hand they are quite good in groups.
as they got high dmg output and can backstab(and allso pa>cd)to stun tanks and such attacking casters.
 
A

Aussie-

Guest
why do you compare with scout melee?
no way an infil is gonna outdmg a shooting scout.
 
H

Hit ^_^

Guest
maybe not if the scout actually manage to hit its taget ;)
 
A

acei

Guest
inf/merc/scout have sooo many disadvantages in group unfortunately....

Low HP (i have more HP/AF than most inf/merc/scout)
Can't hold agro off casters/healers and if they do it wastes all our power healing that class than it would a tank
 
K

Kagato.

Guest
An infil shouldn't expect to get chosen to a group if the group still needs one of the essential classes, but I see no reason if the group has an open spot and all the needed classes already not to invite an infil.

When I run my DF groups they tend to be heavy tank damage based, so as long as we have either a mezzer or pbt and a cleric to support the tanks I tend to invite anything for the last couple of slots, and most of the time the group is all high end 40ies with a few 50ies so i'll try and have a 'needy' person in the last spot, either a lowbie or ignored class like scout or infil. It doesn't harm the group at all, with a top level group you can manage with 7 and even 6 people most of the time regardless.
 
A

artemus

Guest
I also like to open the last spot in the group for any type of class especially the unloved ones such as infis and scouts, sometimes i even find them useful :)

makes me feel good, like giving to charity :D
 
L

leorin

Guest
heh this is plain BS u sayin

at higher lvls infilts are uber aggro holder and can easily get aggro fast of caster/cleric if needed which any other class cant get that fast.......pallys cant

and since they evade alot they dont drain healer mana very much either...a well played infil can solo red/low purps enuff said...

and in pbaoe grp there should always be 1 infilt
 
B

belth

Guest
PBT+Guard+high Evade+buffs make infil better aggro-holder than any other melee in Alb :p We don't get hit as much as everyone else (with those aids), what else can healers want?
 
A

Arthwyr

Guest
PBT+Guard+high Evade+buffs make infil better aggro-holder than any other melee in Alb We don't get hit as much as everyone else (with those aids), what else can healers want?

Pre evade cap, fully buffed I could solo red mobs with 10/15% health loss (with infil). With the evade cap there seems to be a huge evade penalty when tanking several red/purp con mobs. Making the infil an even worse group alternative for another class then before. Just recently Edge(arms), arthwyr(pala) edges cleric buffer and a minstrel on stick did trees with the occasional help of a theurgist (hi theo :p) for eb haste but not for bt. No mezz just tanks taking and holding agro even from double pulls. Try that with an infil, the class definately needs some pve loving.
 
F

froler-mid

Guest
Originally posted by Arthwyr


Pre evade cap, fully buffed I could solo red mobs with 10/15% health loss (with infil). With the evade cap there seems to be a huge evade penalty when tanking several red/purp con mobs. Making the infil an even worse group alternative for another class then before. Just recently Edge(arms), arthwyr(pala) edges cleric buffer and a minstrel on stick did trees with the occasional help of a theurgist (hi theo :p) for eb haste but not for bt. No mezz just tanks taking and holding agro even from double pulls. Try that with an infil, the class definately needs some pve loving.

i solo reds/purple just as easy aas i did before evade nerf ( IP/FA = downtime help thou....)


hamstring still do major bonus on +evade..

But without end im toast, and with a pally and spam hamstring i belive i 'take much less dmg' then a 'real tank'...= good for group ;>




Originally posted by belth
PBT+Guard+high Evade+buffs make infil better aggro-holder than any other melee in Alb :p We don't get hit as much as everyone else (with those aids), what else can healers want?


very true, not many understand this ;>
 
X

xplo

Guest
I see groups this way:
Theur, Mincer, Cleric, Paladin, Tank, Open, Open, Open

You can fill the Open spots easy with rogues and still have a very good group!

I am 1.3 lvl's from 50 please give me a group in df xD :clap:
 
H

Hit ^_^

Guest
Originally posted by leorin
heh this is plain BS u sayin

at higher lvls infilts are uber aggro holder and can easily get aggro fast of caster/cleric if needed which any other class cant get that fast.......pallys cant

and since they evade alot they dont drain healer mana very much either...a well played infil can solo red/low purps enuff said...

and in pbaoe grp there should always be 1 infilt

at lower lvls they dont evade allot.
and pallys take aggro fast if thy use erange/heal chant/aggro shout. (and they keep it) infils sure was and might still be a good soloer(not as good as pally tho)but in groups a armsman/pally is way much better more hp Way better armour(af) sure its better to have a infil that nothing but overall it aint a good group char.
pally/armsmens whit guard on each other is Unkillabel pve wich infils are not if not buffed and if buffed a buffed arms/pally is still better.
 
P

primo

Guest
Originally posted by Iycee
Why on Earth can't Infiltrators be accepted into groups?

Examples:

The group is fine how it is (And one more set of weapons wouldn't make it better?)
We don't need an Infil (well a fair point, not having an Infil won't kill you but annoying nonetheless)
We'd rather have a Healer/Tank/Support Class/Serious Illness (These things aren't available right now, learn to make do)

We can't be that bad surely...

We can tell you if theres a mob scout coming,
We can poison the mobs with debuffs, DoTs and snares in case the group needs to run,
We do a nice line in heavy damage with PA,
We have various lengths/types of stuns and bleeds,
We have 2 weapons to do more damage,
We ... um ... aren't Scouts :p

I have heard it said many times that Infils use Buffbots in RvR so they can kill unheeded and that "every" Infil has one...I think it's much more likely that they have developed special relationships with their buffbots because they are the only people who group with them every time they ask.
Getting into a group is very very hard for an infil ( :wall: ), please :help: them by allowing them to group and maybe it'd go towards reducing the buffbot numbers. I personally don't have one yet, but soon, with the advent of BT Broadband in the place I live, and the means to make one, it is a very attractive option.

Please don't tell me to solo, I can't afford the top nick equipment need to solo, the downtime is cripplingly painful with no way to speed it up and I am sure most of you would much rather group once in a while anyway.

On a side note I have recently made a guild which I am recruiting for, I take anyone at the moment, regardless of past experience and if you are a first-time player, I don't mind giving some advice - Just look for the Phoenix Syndicate.

It isnt any easier for scouts...
 
M

masentaja

Guest
Let tank taunt the mob few times, then let the infil do his job. That's what we do in pbaoe group, make sure mobs wont get agro, wait a sec while tanks slap them with annoying way :p Then we start blasting the area and alas, no wizard got agro. :p
(few times it happened though :p)

It should be easier with CC, since in pbaoe group, we dont use CC, and its big job for tanks to make sure wizards wont get agro from any mob.

Just try it ... :p
 
G

gwal

Guest
seen this post before, wil probably see it again, said it then and will say it again.

infiltrators can be very good in a grp, I enjoyed having them while I lvl´d - the trick is just to know how to use them, thats the trick to every class, except the infil cant do it on his own, he needs others to make him good in a grp.

so.. how do u make infil good in a grp - make sure he doesnt get aggro, and even if he does, make sure he gets the least possible ammount of dmg. How´s this done?:

1: with a paladin in the grp heal chant + 1 or 2 enrage (aggro style), not to mention aggro chant, and at later lvl´s slam can enable the paladin tpo keep aggro off the infiltrater very effectivly. the infil can be allowed to use his best styles for very high dmg, hence being very usefull for the grp by taking hp´s off the mobs fast.

2: make sure the infil has both dex buffs. a buffed infiltrator can evade a lot, even keeping aggro from purp con mobs for a fair amount of time. this will ensure less need for healing, hence reduce downtime.

3: infil himself needs to make sure he only ever gets aggro from mobs if its nessecary, and under no circumstances should he ever have aggro from 2 mobs, this he can make sure of himself by controlling what he hits and what styles he uses.

4: guard the infil, and protect as well if u have enough ppl with that ability, and do make sure shield tanks have both dex buffs as well

so to all ppl out there, get a cleric and a pally and start grouping those infils - they will make it faster xp for u than another tank. while I lvl´d my paladin infils were good cause we did theese things. on pvp I play an infil myself and vs a lot of mobs the dmg from an infil can almost compete with the dmg from certain casters (and still without getting aggro if the above is done). the infil styles from behind hit for insane amounts of dmg, and rarely miss.

no class is useless anywhere, just find its strenghts and weaknesses and u´ll see the usefulness of them and how to make the best of them, both on pve and on rvr.
 
A

alithiel50

Guest
Originally posted by acei
inf/merc/scout have sooo many disadvantages in group unfortunately....

Low HP (i have more HP/AF than most inf/merc/scout)
Can't hold agro off casters/healers and if they do it wastes all our power healing that class than it would a tank
I seriously doubt you have more hp's than a Merc, since Mercs are a primary tank class and have almost as many hp's as an Armsman.
 
J

jua-cosmos-jua

Guest
its pretty simple they want tanks to block all the time tho tanks do very little dmg but you know newbies.. they want easy game let the tank slowly hit the mob and we heal :).. more infs than tanks = faster kills one good tank is enought 2-3 paladins + arms and shit well thats lame
 
D

dakeyras

Guest
Originally posted by acei

Low HP (i have more HP/AF than most inf/merc/scout)

Wanna bet on that?

Maybe inf/scout...but no way merc :)

Fully buffed my cleric has around 1600. My merc just shy of 2250
 
B

baphomet

Guest
I'd accept an infil if he was with someone else of another class that we needed.
Or we were juat plain desperate..:D
 
S

Stormm

Guest
infils want grps pve.

why ppl level infs - to solo rvr.

muff said :hat:
 
A

Apathy

Guest
I think a lot of infs confuse "We don't want any more group members even though we do have space. Taking any more people would just give us less experience per kill." with "WE DO NOT WANT YOU STINKING INFS! GET AWAY FROM US! YOU ALL SUCK AND WE WILL TAKE ANYONE APART FROM YOU!".

a.
*
 
A

Arthwyr

Guest
But without end im toast, and with a pally and spam hamstring i belive i 'take much less dmg' then a 'real tank'...= good for group ;>

Having both an infil and a paladin I do know wich one to choose. when powerleveling a char. As long as you tank one high con mob with an infil its ok if you get more on you bye bye healer mana resulting in healer getting agro bec he has to spam heal on you and basicly making for messy xping. I do agree however that the defensive bonus on hamsting must be way higher then the medium bonus it says in the info menu bec most of the time you get an evade after a hamstring.
 
C

chuckas

Guest
Lotsa good arguments here, also a lot of uninformed opinion on what infs can or cannot do in a group (such as poison resisted 90% time....bullshit! It purely depends on the envenom skill of the inf, poisons no use because mob dis too quick...bullshit a good Inf will use debuffs in a full group, and Dots when in a smaller group where he is guarded by a good shiled weilder...Dots plus dam output equals excellent aggro hold...add evade and guard, and pbt if you are lucky and you won't die or suck healer power....but you cannot take multiple aggros though.

My best experience is a Shield pally plus an inf is an awesome combination, either duo or in any group combo thereafter. (kudos to Haziz best Shield pally i know :) )

So despite what others say, I say, from great experience, that a shield user, ideally a pally, plus a inf make an awesome addition to any group any size. Shield user grabs all aggro, inf takes aggro from 1 mob, both attack same mob, mob dies quick, then onto the next etc etc btw use the stick and q w buttons to circle round the mob for best side and back style uses, less end use and more dam output.

In RvR....apart from obvious scout abilities, in a group v group combat you should always be a little wide of the group to avoid initial aoe spells (good groups spread a bit anyway). Stealth as soon as enemy within 3-4 horse lengths, walk through enemy as they charge group...they won't have time to see you or select you....by the time you have done that the healer will be obvious, if not a juicy mage target, walk up and PA chain and stick on him. In combat a pally/arms/merc cannot do that because they will be rooted or engaged too quickly.

Gillian - 47 inf
frustrated and annoyed by the bigoted opinions of people who have never played an inf or played with a well played one in a group.
 

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