Rant Why I hate the police (more photography woes)

[Mabs]

I'm more annoyed that a PCSO is actually allowed to demand anything of me. An unpaid, partially trained pseudo-cop is not something I want running around with a warrant card.

i thought the whole point was there is very little they can actually do without back up - hence why they went away and came back with a sergeant ? (cba to reread it, so might be wrong on that )

 

[Bugz]

The government, that's Labour Bugz, are in power and therefore have a responsibility to the public to either clarify the law or prevent the abuse. They aren't doing so hence labour = assholes.

How do you know they haven't? The gov website has an update about it - how do you know a copy wasn't distributed to all the police stations in the country? People misuse stuff - that's life. People misusing stuff a lot is neglect - that's different and we don't not know if the government have faxed/sent reminders out etc. Maybe it's up to the individual higher-up folk of the police force for things like this

Actually bugs in the video posted (the newest one) they weren't even using the Anti-terror laws so pipe down. They are using laws brought in that require people to provide their name and address if they are "involved" in anti-social behaviour.

They were using section 44 in some of the videos posted in this thread/recommended on guardian website so you pipe down sonny.

Besides, most opened with section 44 first. When it was obvious said journalist/photographers knew about the law, they moved onto different laws/pursued it at a different angle. Whether they were saving face or had a genuine concern, who knows.

Stop extrapolating to be honest.

 

[Malecheon]

Here in the US, they sue the police force, the city, the state and the government. It only takes a handful of payouts for the cops to get the message.

Yes, because that's the answer we want over here, let's just sue everyone for everything, all the time.

 

[Jupitus]

How do you know they haven't? The gov website has an update about it - how do you know a copy wasn't distributed to all the police stations in the country? People misuse stuff - that's life. People misusing stuff a lot is neglect - that's different and we don't not know if the government have faxed/sent reminders out etc. Maybe it's up to the individual higher-up folk of the police force for things like this

We already know that it has been circulated. We can now also see that this has not been successful hence more action is necessary. Ultimately the police are run by government, so it is the government that needs to make sure their circulars are enforced. That government is a labour government.

I am not saying that the tories would have done this sucessfully themselves, but they are not in power and so are not being judged on their performance. Labour are in power and should be answerable for their failings, one of which is this situation.

 

[Mey]

I'm more annoyed that a PCSO is actually allowed to demand anything of me. An unpaid, partially trained pseudo-cop is not something I want running around with a warrant card.

PCSO's are paid and trained. (just not trained to be police officers - unfortunately a few try to be.)

 

[Mey]

"We already know that it has been circulated."

Just how sure are you about this?

I would like to note however, this only ever seems to happen in the Met land...

 

[Jupitus]

Despite the met chief publically announcing that it's not against the law to take photos in public places, despite Home Office publications and circulations to police departments

... as per the original post and the article and previous threads...

 

[Ch3tan]

"We already know that it has been circulated."

Just how sure are you about this?

I would like to note however, this only ever seems to happen in the Met land...

Because some of us read the information already provided in the thread?

I'm a Photographer, not a Terrorist

Here is the link to the information for you, as you seem to have ignored it the first time.

Also as to your second point, no it does not only happen it met land. BIg G had it happen to him in skirtland, and if you check the complaints you will see they are from all over.

 

[old.user4556]

Sorry I should have cited some references. Re circulation:

Photography and Counter-Terrorism legislation | Home Office

Copies sent to:
Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland, HM Inspector of Constabulary,
Association of Chief Police Officers (England, Wales and Northern Ireland),

Edit:

I would like to stress: if the police did their jobs properly, I wouldn't have a problem with some polite questions about what I was doing taking photographs and if they can take a quick look at what I had photographed. The powers under section 44 allow this. What I have personally experienced twice. along with thousands of other photographers, is the police misusing their power to prevent the public taking photographs in public places - this is the part that pisses me off.

 

[Ch3tan]

Mey, sorry if my last post came off overly harsh. I really hate it when people comment on threads without reading them properly first though

 

[Shagrat]

It beggars belief tbh. Don't they see just how much bad publicity its getting them?

They get guidelines passed down to them by ACPo, its all over the bloody media that run of the mill photographers are getting pissed off, yet some of them just carry on as normal.....

stunned, and worried about taking my camera out in public when Im with my kids. Im quite happy to argue my corner if im out on my own, i know my rights etc, but not something I want to drag my children through.....

 

[Jupitus]

when Im with my kids.

[Overzealouscopper]

..... you mean your human shield, sir?

[/Overzealouscopper]

 

[Shagrat]

Theyre just wearing bulky coats because its cold officer. It is winter.....

 

[Mey]

I just meant yeah its been "circulated" but just how sure are you that it has actually been distrubuted to officers..

 

[DaGaffer]

I just meant yeah its been "circulated" but just how sure are you that it has actually been distrubuted to officers..

Do they live in hermetically sealed bubbles where they're not aloud to read the papers? That's a pathetic argument. Even if for whatever bizarre reason they hadn't been told the guidelines, they should be asking their bosses what to do.

 

[soze]

Do they live in hermetically sealed bubbles where they're not aloud to read the papers? That's a pathetic argument. Even if for whatever bizarre reason they hadn't been told the guidelines, they should be asking their bosses what to do.

I doubt police officers uphold the law according to what they read in the papers or hear on the news. I would imagine they is some sort of Official process where they get told about rule changes. Im not defending them just saying because its been in the papers it does not mean your average officer has been briefed on the change in procedure.

 

[DaGaffer]

I doubt police officers uphold the law according to what they read in the papers or hear on the news. I would imagine they is some sort of Official process where they get told about rule changes. Im not defending them just saying because its been in the papers it does not mean your average officer has been briefed on the change in procedure.

While I'm prepared to believe an average officer may not have been briefed on a change in procedure; they'd have to be particularly insular and thick not to be aware this is a known issue. Now they could say, "nowt changes until I hear from above" (the "only obeying orders" approach), or they could go and ask their masters for some clarification (the "IQ larger than their shoesize" approach), or they could know full well its wrong but because the briefing hasn't happened yet, act like petty pricks and abuse the law for their own amusement while they can (the "ACAB" approach). I'm going with the latter.

 

[Ch3tan]

Police used terror legislation to stop ex-RAF engineer in Kidlington (From Oxford Mail)

 

[soze]

While I'm prepared to believe an average officer may not have been briefed on a change in procedure; they'd have to be particularly insular and thick not to be aware this is a known issue. Now they could say, "nowt changes until I hear from above" (the "only obeying orders" approach), or they could go and ask their masters for some clarification (the "IQ larger than their shoesize" approach), or they could know full well its wrong but because the briefing hasn't happened yet, act like petty pricks and abuse the law for their own amusement while they can (the "ACAB" approach). I'm going with the latter.

While i think you are right some bad apples will be ignoring the change on purpose I do think a lot of officers will be waiting for official word to come down. But as they know this is causing so much trouble and they know the press is out fishing i would think getting the rules changed would be a priority.

 

[Ch3tan]

Official word was circulated according to the ACPO.

 

[Jiggs]

Official word was circulated according to the ACPO.

They get briefed on the current status and appropriate application of s44 and s43 every shift.

/edit - There is plenty of information here: http://www.met.police.uk/about/photography.htm

 

[Calaen]

From Ch3ts post,

Below shows the state of the police force.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Police spokesman Daniel Donovan said officers were called to the High Street at about 4.15pm after a gang hurled a bottle at a woman passer-by. Officers arrived and the louts were told to move on.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yet they took the time to investigate a guy with a camera.

Pure joke.

 

[old.user4556]

Also saw this on IAPNAT.

Mall security guard accuses shopper of being a paedophile for photographing his own son Boing Boing

The article it badly written and sensationalist, I very much doubt the security guard said "I think you're a pedo", but in my own personal experience he may have said "you could be photographing other people's children". It doesn't excuse it mind you.

 

[Shagrat]

It's terrible that so many these incidents seem to be happening.

That one above (the RAF engineer) is a classic example. Guy in town happens to have his camera with him, see's a lot of police and thinks its unusual so takes a couple of photos. Policeman starts hassling him and demanding he delete the pics (which he has absolutely no power to do) and because the guy knows his rights and tells him get stuffed he gets the terrorism act thrown in his face and searched.

its pathetic

 

[Scouse]

What some here are missing is the bigger picture.

This isn`t about the photography, or even about the UK. This is an unfortunate and totally predictable knock-on effect of a worldwide shift towards more authoritarian-style government, with more authoritarian laws.



Although at first glance this seems unrelated, I`m currently in Oz and the headline I read yesterday was about all Australian schoolchildren getting an ID card so "parents can track the child`s academic achievement". (As opposed to simply talking to the kid they live with). They don`t need a terrorist event to achieve this in Oz because the local population are so damn thick they fall for everything the telly tells them.

(Yesterday Oz` primetime morning breakfast show told the whole country that 'Smart Water' (invisible ink) has 'eradicated racial attacks' in the UK! It's doing wonders for the sales...)

Unfortunately, 90% of the planet`s population are so uneducated they can`t see the obvious staring them in the face. Anyone who thought at the time that S44 was to 'protect the public' is no better than the Aussie retards

 

[Mey]

They get briefed on the current status and appropriate application of s44 and s43 every shift.

/edit - There is plenty of information here: Metropolitan Police Service - About the Met - Photography advice

Do they?

Must be a met thing.

 

[Krazeh]

I've been discussing this exact issue on another forum I frequent and it's worrying that there are people who think this kind of behaviour from the Police is not only acceptable but should be encouraged. Admittedly one of them is an Aussie so if what Scouse says is true then that explains some of it.

 

[Billargh]

"I'm not filming you, I'm filming your body."

 

[DaGaffer]

What some here are missing is the bigger picture.

This isn`t about the photography, or even about the UK. This is an unfortunate and totally predictable knock-on effect of a worldwide shift towards more authoritarian-style government, with more authoritarian laws.



Although at first glance this seems unrelated, I`m currently in Oz and the headline I read yesterday was about all Australian schoolchildren getting an ID card so "parents can track the child`s academic achievement". (As opposed to simply talking to the kid they live with). They don`t need a terrorist event to achieve this in Oz because the local population are so damn thick they fall for everything the telly tells them.

(Yesterday Oz` primetime morning breakfast show told the whole country that 'Smart Water' (invisible ink) has 'eradicated racial attacks' in the UK! It's doing wonders for the sales...)

Unfortunately, 90% of the planet`s population are so uneducated they can`t see the obvious staring them in the face. Anyone who thought at the time that S44 was to 'protect the public' is no better than the Aussie retards

I've been discussing this exact issue on another forum I frequent and it's worrying that there are people who think this kind of behaviour from the Police is not only acceptable but should be encouraged. Admittedly one of them is an Aussie so if what Scouse says is true then that explains some of it.

I actually had a long rant on my blog about Australia's obsession with spurious safety and policing when I was over there a couple of years ago. Something has gone really wrong with Australians; the happy-go-lucky-larrikin image couldn't be further from the truth; they're authoritarian and fearful about pretty much everything.

 

[Ctuchik]

ask yourself this. how much freedom are you willing to fight for if it means the terrorists gets the exact same freedom to do what THEY plan on doing.

yes those cops were idiots, but the photographer were no einstein either.