Why Assassins Need Improvement...

Pera

Fledgling Freddie
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1 Bainshee 213 98,095
2 Healer 452 93,839
3 Beserker 172 87,131
4 Theurgist 217 85,117
5 Savage 82 82,872
6 Runemaster 311 82,457
7 Cabalist 223 81,829
8 Bonedancer 134 81,655
9 Sorcerer 496 79,858
10 Spiritmaster 298 79,744
11 Druid 623 77,312
12 Bard 370 77,051
13 Skald 267 76,777
14 Eldritch 323 73,932
15 Warlock 290 73,537
16 Cleric 666 71,584
17 Mercenary 220 69,973
18 Shaman 299 69,227
19 Blademaster 238 65,426
20 Mentalist 132 64,344
21 Minstrel 381 63,790
22 Hero 253 63,781
23 Reaver 132 62,392
24 Wizard 261 61,361
25 Paladin 177 60,949
26 Warrior 204 59,040
27 Champion 148 58,151
28 Enchanter 252 57,601
29 Valkyrie 30 55,687
30 Armsman 145 54,211
31 Animist 210 51,820
32 Warden 139 51,442
33 Nightshade 320 50,483
34 Scout 557 49,910
35 Valewalker 31 48,308
36 Infiltrator 447 47,970
37 Heretic 137 46,539
38 Friar 85 45,098
39 Ranger 575 42,626
40 Hunter 237 42,224
41 Vampiir 137 41,860
42 Shadowblade 305 40,541
43 Thane 70 36,858
44 Necromancer 38 35,340

Wow I just looked up these numbers and 5 out of 6 stealther classes are on the bottom of the avg. RP week in all 44 daoc classes. This is from all the servers except classic, gareth, pvp, and chars that are active in the last 3 days with at least 10000 rp earned. Isn't it clear from this that stealthers need as much love as Thanes? I don't think this is an most up to date version of avg. weekly rps but it sure does give a clear picture of the situation for stealthers for the past year or two...
 

Keelus

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Yup, it got nothing to do that most other classes are groups mainly. And assasins needing same love as thane :puke:
just make hardcap on cast time with lowest being 2 second and stop trying to improve 1 class type instead balancing them, as in assasin, casters, hybrids, heavy tanks etc but then again like i care subs ending and wow i got my items restored the 3rd january, that was not said sarcastic ment and thx for them still doing it and allso shows that there is still work being done on that so others still having items missing they will come around to you allso.
 

noblok

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According to your logic vampiirs need more love than valkyries. Let's just say I think that this isn't the best way to determine which classes are over/underpowered.

edit for chronic:
If I understood the post correctly it includes the average last week realm points for all the classes, so more of them != higher ranking.
 

Pera

Fledgling Freddie
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Keelus said:
Yup, it got nothing to do that most other classes are groups mainly. And assasins needing same love as thane :puke:
just make hardcap on cast time with lowest being 2 second and stop trying to improve 1 class type instead balancing them, as in assasin, casters, hybrids, heavy tanks etc but then again like i care subs ending and wow i got my items restored the 3rd january, that was not said sarcastic ment and thx for them still doing it and allso shows that there is still work being done on that so others still having items missing they will come around to you allso.

You are dead wrong. What Mythic needs to stop doing is what you suggest. They need to STOP nerfing classes and instead try and bring other sto par with the rest. It has nothing to do with being other toons group friendly. Why aren't assassins allowed to make as much on avg. as any other class in the game? BEcause they are not group friendly? Then if you force them to solo and hunt each other, why not give introduce more solo friendly features.

I played a vamp to RR4 and I can honestly say the class is OPed in 1 vs. 1 but it does not worth shit in groups. Also those numbers do not take into account classic servers where there are 817291827 Vampiirs and is not the most up to date averages. Obviously if the numbers were from yesterday, it being more recent, you could see vampiirs somewhere near the middle.
 

Deepflame

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Stealthers are group-hostile classes. You can't see them, they go places where it's hard to cast a heal, etc. Plus most people that play stealthers are of the "Lone wolf" mentality.

Remember, playing solo will always earn you less realmpoints than playing in a group, be it an opted one or not.

It's not the assassins that need improvement, it's the players that play these classes that do. Spymaster ML10 is fun for setting up ambushes. Archers with rapid fire can do some nice interrupting. Forceful Zephyr is a nice way of messing up an assist train for a bit. Mass Gateway isn't bad either. Their alternative lines, battlemaster, stealth towards an enemy then grapple him from stealth. Bodyguard while stealthed. (If it's possible). Use debuff styles as an opening attack from stealth.

Stealth classes offer a lot of group options but most people choose not to take them. It's not the classes that need adjusting, it's the player mentality. Of both the stealthers and the others.
 

Pera

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Deepflame said:
Stealthers are group-hostile classes. You can't see them, they go places where it's hard to cast a heal, etc. Plus most people that play stealthers are of the "Lone wolf" mentality.

Remember, playing solo will always earn you less realmpoints than playing in a group, be it an opted one or not.

It's not the assassins that need improvement, it's the players that play these classes that do. Spymaster ML10 is fun for setting up ambushes. Archers with rapid fire can do some nice interrupting. Forceful Zephyr is a nice way of messing up an assist train for a bit.

Are we playing the same Dark Age of Camelot game where absolutely NO ONE groups stealthers in RvR or is it the Dark age of CandyLand that you play where people welcome every class in the game to their groups? A Stealther by default is a "Lone Foe that strikes from the shadows" so the "Lone Wolf" mentality is not by choice of the player but it is by the choice of the current setup of the game.

Also, why would someone solo should get less RPs then someone grouped? Last I check they do in fact get more RPs for soloing, meaning somehow the game rewards soloing? or why if the sole purpose of this game is "Grouping" Mythic penalize the players for grouping and cuts their RPs as well as NOT making group friendly characters?
 

Andrilyn

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Poor Necro's need some RvR love they have been on the bottom end of the food chain ever since they were introduced to the game :(
 

Deepflame

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Pera said:
Are we playing the same Dark Age of Camelot game where absolutely NO ONE groups stealthers in RvR or is it the Dark age of CandyLand that you play where people welcome every class in the game to their groups? A Stealther by default is a "Lone Foe that strikes from the shadows" so the "Lone Wolf" mentality is not by choice of the player but it is by the choice of the current setup of the game.

Also, why would someone solo should get less RPs then someone grouped? Last I check they do in fact get more RPs for soloing, meaning somehow the game rewards soloing? or why if the sole purpose of this game is "Grouping" Mythic penalize the players for grouping and cuts their RPs as well as NOT making group friendly characters?
Read my latest edit, I was editing it after re-reading it a couple of times. :) I wanted to add more after I was done typing it out and read it. So I added some more. I believe it now ends with me saying it's not just the stealthers fault.

Why would someone solo get less realmpoints? Simply because they can't take on the same amount of enemies a group can. And they have more downtime and hunting around involved. A group just runs up the bridge, ganks the zerg, kills, say, 20 people and runs off. FOP, rebuff, various abilities such as DI and artifacts are used to benefit everyone and it's off to kill another 20 people again. In the same time a stealther kills one person.
 

Outlander

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the only reason they get more rps in groups is cos of kills/time. yes you get more rps per kill solo but the number of kills you get are a lot less than compared 8vs8 rvr. I think these figures above are rightly justified and do not see why stealthers need any additional love at all they do just fine as it is.
 

Tilda

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Pera said:
Wow I just looked up these numbers and 5 out of 6 stealther classes are on the bottom of the avg. RP week in all 44 daoc classes. This is from all the servers except classic, gareth, pvp, and chars that are active in the last 3 days with at least 10000 rp earned. Isn't it clear from this that stealthers need as much love as Thanes? I don't think this is an most up to date version of avg. weekly rps but it sure does give a clear picture of the situation for stealthers for the past year or two...

Cite?
Someones gotta be top anyway.
 

Azathrim

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I agree stealthers (or assassins / non-ranger archers to be specific) need some improvements - mostly the assassins.

Why?

They got no particular way to participate in the main game: RvR

A caster can join a visible group, participate in the stand off at keep sieges and even solo pretty well (depending on which caster ofcourse).

Tanks can join a visible group, join in on the rush when doors go at keeps and even solo (some better than others, as always).

Support classes can do what they do best, support, in visible groups and in all stages of a siege fight. Mostly they cannot solo though.

Archers can join the stand-off at siege and solo.

Assassins can solo or stealth zerg.



Uh oh you say! Assassins can join the standoff and climb walls and ...

No, they cannot.
- Stealther guards
- PN nodes
- Mines
- AE spells going off to pop stealth
- No support as undesired in groups
- Enemies with support (DI, etc).

So... what are assassins supposed to do? Oh yes... solo!
But... they don't do that very well either.

Ever tried to sneak in, patiently wait for the caster to pass the poison spike and kill his brittle guards, quickly sneak up and land the PA... just to have him turn and MoC you down for near the same damage your PA hit for? Ever tried to see a tanks two-hander anytime style hit for more than you PA'd him for?

Thus people stealth zerg. At least they have a chance vs. some of the visibles. Is it fun for the few of us left that stupidly attempts to solo/duo anyways to get rolled over by 4-5 enemy stealthers? Nope.

But oh well, due to stubborness we keep going. Perhaps someday things will be evened out a bit more. Equal footing and all.
 

Farbaute2

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it would be so easy to make stelthers groupfriendly. just make grouped characters share the same stelthvison or something like that.

thats not the problem. the problem is that the majoroty of all stelthers are second characters made in frustration long time ago after the main character were killed by a (buffed) stelther. the result is that there are weird expectations what a stelther should do and not do. for example only fight against other stelthers, run around solo, duel or kill guards on a battlement
 

Raven

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Azathrim said:
I agree stealthers (or assassins / non-ranger archers to be specific) need some improvements - mostly the assassins.

Why?

They got no particular way to participate in the main game: RvR

A caster can join a visible group, participate in the stand off at keep sieges and even solo pretty well (depending on which caster ofcourse).

Tanks can join a visible group, join in on the rush when doors go at keeps and even solo (some better than others, as always).

Support classes can do what they do best, support, in visible groups and in all stages of a siege fight. Mostly they cannot solo though.

Archers can join the stand-off at siege and solo.

Assassins can solo or stealth zerg.



Uh oh you say! Assassins can join the standoff and climb walls and ...

No, they cannot.
- Stealther guards
- PN nodes
- Mines
- AE spells going off to pop stealth
- No support as undesired in groups
- Enemies with support (DI, etc).

So... what are assassins supposed to do? Oh yes... solo!
But... they don't do that very well either.

Ever tried to sneak in, patiently wait for the caster to pass the poison spike and kill his brittle guards, quickly sneak up and land the PA... just to have him turn and MoC you down for near the same damage your PA hit for? Ever tried to see a tanks two-hander anytime style hit for more than you PA'd him for?

Thus people stealth zerg. At least they have a chance vs. some of the visibles. Is it fun for the few of us left that stupidly attempts to solo/duo anyways to get rolled over by 4-5 enemy stealthers? Nope.

But oh well, due to stubborness we keep going. Perhaps someday things will be evened out a bit more. Equal footing and all.


while i understand your point of view i disagree, an assasin just needs far more effort putting into template/play style, hugmeh (SB) for instance will destroy most enemies
 

Kanim

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that means fuck all rly, vamp is placed at 41 but most definately doesn't need boosting.
 

Chronictank

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Assasins are intended not to grp with visual's, extracts from the Official catacombs manual:

Infiltrator
Specialists in sneaking, hiding, disguise, backstab, and in general being able to spy on the enemy
without their knowledge, they are, as members of the Guild of Shadows, invaluable assets to Albion.
They can wear only leather armour, but they can use slashing and thrusting weapons and eventually
learn how to dual wield. To complete their devastating attacks, infiltrators often resort to poison.

House of Loki : Assassin
God : Loki, god of schemes. A deathly blade in the night, the Assassin sneaks from shadow to shadow
and brings death without a sound. With his natural stealth and the gifts of Loki, he is a deadly killer
with no sense of honor. He can use two axes at the same time and can also train to use swords. He can
hide and strike with great power. He compensates the low protection of his leather armour with his
natural capacity to dodge hits. Trolls and dwarves disapprove such treacherous methods. Few Norsemen
are seduced by this career but many a Kobold completely adheres to it.

Nightshade
A strong spell caster who follows the Way of Stealth, the Nightshade can hide and sneak unnoticed by
his or her enemies, and strike when the need arises.


If you want to grp , you dont roll a assasin as they are not intended to grp with visuals, and they never will be if Mythic has any sence
 

Shike

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well I kinda disagree abit.

Given the right time, I can kill anything with my nightshade. Arguably its impossible to kill some things in other moments but, it is up to me to choose when to kill, who to kill, and why. I do not have to jump that rr9SM with 3 brittles and moc and ML9 up if I dont want to. If i walk on the bridge and a mine pops me it is my own fault for not counting on a mine to be there in the first place tbh. Its stupid to run there :)

Key to assassin is simple imo, be where the enemy dont expect you to be, take the time needed to put up a strike correctly, rather that than miss a PA and die since I rushed it. If right moment arises, strike, if it doesnt, dont let RPgreed make you horny for a kill, it will most likely get you killed :)

The thing that ruin stealthers the most are actually other stealthers, they suck so they have to zerg to compete. Those are the real bastards imo, since their playstyle is horrible, they pop soloers for zergs to kill, or they just gank 3vs1 etc. Ive seen quite a few of those assholes on the cluster the last 2 weeks Ive tried out my NS again after a break and those are the reason I stop playing NS again since Im tired of getting back to the fights, just because I was outnumbered for the 100th time. 40 kills an evening for me is also equal to 40 deaths, 35+ of those to stupid zerglings that just cant compete in any other way. Its dull and ultimately not a fun gameexperience at all in the longrun.
 

Pera

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Shike said:
well I kinda disagree abit.

Given the right time, I can kill anything with my nightshade. Arguably its impossible to kill some things in other moments but, it is up to me to choose when to kill, who to kill, and why. I do not have to jump that rr9SM with 3 brittles and moc and ML9 up if I dont want to. If i walk on the bridge and a mine pops me it is my own fault for not counting on a mine to be there in the first place tbh. Its stupid to run there :)

Key to assassin is simple imo, be where the enemy dont expect you to be, take the time needed to put up a strike correctly, rather that than miss a PA and die since I rushed it. If right moment arises, strike, if it doesnt, dont let RPgreed make you horny for a kill, it will most likely get you killed :)

The thing that ruin stealthers the most are actually other stealthers, they suck so they have to zerg to compete. Those are the real bastards imo, since their playstyle is horrible, they pop soloers for zergs to kill, or they just gank 3vs1 etc. Ive seen quite a few of those assholes on the cluster the last 2 weeks Ive tried out my NS again after a break and those are the reason I stop playing NS again since Im tired of getting back to the fights, just because I was outnumbered for the 100th time. 40 kills an evening for me is also equal to 40 deaths, 35+ of those to stupid zerglings that just cant compete in any other way. Its dull and ultimately not a fun gameexperience at all in the longrun.

Although I totally disagree with your first two pharagraphs, I do agree fully with the last one. The definition of an assassin is one who is able to attack from the shadows right? then why in the world Mythic allows Stealthers to group at the first place?

Its all nice and dandy to be able to walk around solo and pick your own battles, BUT it is not so nice when there is no battles to pick from you. You can't attack casters with decent MLs and MoC, you can't go to popular places to hunt since stealth zergs are there. I waited on the Mid bridge (not the so popular one Bryna I think) and for 45 mins I did not see single soul that came by it. At the same time though mids were camping the bridge by drop off with 20+ numbers.

I play the same game as a group friendly toon. I pay the same money, and I put as much if not more effort to get the best template. I spend the time to get 50 and ToAed out, which is by the way far more than a toon with group friendly abilities would spend. I do everything a group friendly toon does and more just to be penalized at the end game? I do those things so that given the equal time played a group friendly pull off 60K a night where I have to be satisfied with 15K?

Before you critize stealthers in any way (especially if you never played one) ask yourself these questions and try to see the things from a stealthers perspective.
 

Pera

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Kanim said:
that means fuck all rly, vamp is placed at 41 but most definately doesn't need boosting.

Have you ever played a vamp before? I played one to RR4 and let me tell you (again) they might be OPed in 1 vs. 1 BUT they do not worth shit in groups. given the equal RR a friar can go toe-to-toe with a vampiir so Friars don't need any boosting? Your logic is flawed. Any hib group will take a BM, Champ, Hero over a vampiir anyday.

A Vampiir is only as strong as its current power %. A vampiir that starts a fight with no power will have a hard time against other tanks. Try to attack a Shield specced hero or a friar with no power and see how well you do as a vampiir.
 

xxManiacxx

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Pera said:
Have you ever played a vamp before? I played one to RR4 and let me tell you (again) they might be OPed in 1 vs. 1 BUT they do not worth shit in groups. given the equal RR a friar can go toe-to-toe with a vampiir so Friars don't need any boosting? Your logic is flawed. Any hib group will take a BM, Champ, Hero over a vampiir anyday.

A Vampiir is only as strong as its current power %. A vampiir that starts a fight with no power will have a hard time against other tanks. Try to attack a Shield specced hero or a friar with no power and see how well you do as a vampiir.

Why would u attack a shield specced hero or friar as a vamp in a grp?
 

Pera

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xxManiacxx said:
Why would u attack a shield specced hero or friar as a vamp in a grp?

I was talking about 1 vs. 1 where vampiirs are considered OPed.
 

Skaven

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Chronictank said:
If you want to grp , you dont roll a assasin as they are not intended to grp with visuals, and they never will be if Mythic has any sence

Then please remove our ml10 spy ability and give us something actually worth going to ml10 for.
 

snushanen

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Pera said:
Isn't it clear from this that stealthers need as much love as Thanes?

Assasins needs some love, but thanes need it way more imo, the only toon i have lv 50 is thane and i have noticed a few things with them.

-they hit to weak and miss a lot
- their spells are weak, speacialy insta pbae ( yes its insta but 20 sec
cooldown so double the dmg :p ) and their time based spells are slow (even with high dex in gear)


I am greatful of the new PvE thingi witch are given to thanes and valks in teh next patches but personly i find thane a nice PvE class as it is tbh ( not as fine as necro, petspammers and summ SMs ofc) but fairly better then many others. What thane realy need is some RvR love, what if they got weap skill and dmg up a little bit and maybe some better cast speed but most of all i woul be happy if they just could benefit from piety buff!
 

Jobbegea

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non-stealthers have a FAAAAR bigger player base? so... more rp's? :)

edit: probaly allready posted but i am in a nocare mode atm..
 

Pera

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Jobbegea said:
non-stealthers have a FAAAAR bigger player base? so... more rp's? :)

1 Bainshee 213 98,095
39 Ranger 575 42,626

The numbers 213 and 575 indicates the number of players...so...no.
 

Jobbegea

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i wonder how many of those rangers are active?
and non-stealthers facing more rp's/battle
 

Pera

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Jobbegea said:
i wonder how many of those rangers are active?
and non-stealthers facing more rp's/battle

"This is from all the servers except classic, gareth, pvp, and chars that are active in the last 3 days with at least 10000 rp earned."

Read much?
 

Pera

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Jobbegea said:
i wonder how many of those rangers are active?
and non-stealthers facing more rp's/battle

Well thats an issue that could be address as Assassins having another short end isn't it?
 

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