What do people think about this?

Trem

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I shot my mum when I was 4. The bullet went through her leg and finished up in the bedroom wall, it just missed her shin.

You think I'm lying?

The gun was a Magnum, made famous by Dirty Harry and we were on holiday. My dad decided to take it along with him for some reason.

So the moral to my story is that guns don't kill people(rappers do), they just fuck up holidays.
 

pcg79

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throdgrain said:
If I had my way I would repeal the law banning handguns, and allow them to permit holders for self-defence.

i agreed with you uptill here.

lots of people arent as careful or responsible as you are!
 

Danya

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Ch3tan said:
The right to own a gun, does not imply that it should be kept in your home.

Allowing ownership and proper regulation will help stop blackmarket sales of guns and their increased use by criminals. IMO.
Fair point. No probs with guns in gun clubs or whatever.

Tom said:
AFAIK its not illegal to shoot somebody in your home, there is no law against it. If some burglar decides to break in and wander around with a view to attacking me, and I own a gun, then I'm sorry but that guy is going down. Provided you don't shoot them in the back as they're running away, or through a door, you're not going to get in trouble.
It IS illegal to shoot someone in your home. This isn't the US. You are only allowed to use "reasonable force" (what consitutes that is up to the courts) to defend yourself. There aren't many instances where that includes shooting people. There was a case a year or so ago now about a farmer who shot and injured two people who broke into his house with a shotgun. He did time for it, and he didn't even kill them.
If you just pull a gun and blow someone away, regardless of whether he's running, odds are you'll get sent down for murder or manslaughter.

Guns for defence doesn't work - that's what they like to say guns are for in the US, yet they have more fatal shootings than any other western country by a long way. And guns kept for self defence are involved in more shootings of family members or the owner than shooting intruders.

In any event, if you have to get the gun and ammo from two separate locked cupboards before you can use it, it's not exactly a great self defence weapon as the odds are you'll be attacked well before you can do that. I doubt an intruder (especially if armed) is going to just wait while you go unlock your gun. :p
 

Trem

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Danya said:
There was a case a year or so ago now about a farmer who shot and injured two people who broke into his house with a shotgun. He did time for it, and he didn't even kill them.

If you are on about Tony Martin he did kill one of the pikey scum. The pikey scum that had burgled his house repeatedly over the months. The pikey scum who says(the one thats alive) that they deserved it.

He got about 2 years in jail and the country was in uproar that he was jailed at all.
 

throdgrain

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Indeed Trem, and it was fucking outrageous imo. He should have got a medal, not 2 years in the clink :/
 

kanonfodda

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throdgrain said:
Indeed Trem, and it was fucking outrageous imo. He should have got a medal, not 2 years in the clink :/

unfortunately, there is a bit difference between justice and the law. He should never have gone to jail for that.

As for the gun debate, i don't like the idea of guns in the home, but if that was the law, I could deal with it. Legal ownership, however, with regulated storage (gun clubs etc) would be fine.
 

Tom

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Danya said:
It IS illegal to shoot someone in your home.

No it isn't. Find me any law that specifically outlaws the use of firearms in self defence on your property. You won't find it.

If some fucker breaks into my house and runs at me with what I believe to be a knife, or blunt instrument then I'm perfectly entitled to blow his fucking brains out, and any jury would see that as reasonable force.

Tony Martin (although you may be referring to another case entirely) shot a burglar who was running away - hardly the same thing. There was another case of an elderly gent who was sick of having his allotment patch vandalised and stolen from - and he shot one of the scum through his shed door. That's unreasonable force.

Although tbh, shooting burglars isn't a bad thing. Thieving scum = drain on society = better off dead/disabled.
 

Tom

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Danya said:
I doubt an intruder (especially if armed) is going to just wait while you go unlock your gun. :p

If somebody pointed a gun in your direction, would you wait to see if it was loaded or not?
 

Danya

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Tom said:
If somebody pointed a gun in your direction, would you wait to see if it was loaded or not?
No, but if the gun is locked away, it's not exactly to hand.

Tom said:
If some fucker breaks into my house and runs at me with what I believe to be a knife, or blunt instrument then I'm perfectly entitled to blow his fucking brains out, and any jury would see that as reasonable force.
You hope.
You also hope it's not a family member. :p
 

Vae

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There was the point made in the West Wing that if you took the populations of western Europe you'd have roughly the same population as the US. The US had something like 30,000 gun deaths compared to 100 or so in Europe.

Ch3tan said:
Allowing ownership and proper regulation will help stop blackmarket sales of guns and their increased use by criminals. IMO.
This is absolutely incorrect. All it will do is increase the supply of guns!

Now you can't say that making guns legal under whatever controls isn't going to increase the number of gun deaths. If there are more guns out there then there is more opportunity for accidents involving them, more opportunity for them to be stolen and thus get onto the streets (yes even if they are secured in gun cabinets etc), more opportunity for people (even with background checks etc) to obtain them for illegal uses and more opportunity for them to be turned on family/public if someone goes mad.

If you take the arguement that the guns and ammo have to be kept in seperate safes at home then how is that going to help you act in self defence! You won't have the time available.
 

Danya

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Guns in the house just sparks an arms race with the criminals - they feel they have to carry a gun in case the householder has one too. Would you rather face an unarmed person or one with a gun? You pull a gun on them and their first reaction is likely to be shoot first and worry about whether yours was loaded or not later. :p
 

Tom

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You might as well just say that knives in the house increases the chance of an intruder carrying a knife.

The difference is that if somebody goes armed, and they get caught, the sentence goes from months, to years.

Ban everything thats fun tbh. Then nobody gets hurt!
 

nath

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I like rocket propelled grenades, they're fucking fun. If or when, should I say, some intruder attacks my house with an apache longbow, I want to be able to defend it. Let me have an rpg to do so. Plus, I like blowing up shit in my back garden.


You're not the only one who can play the take the example to the extreme game.


Fact is, guns are designed to kill people. Knives are designed to cut up your dinner. People are, on the whole, stupid and as such I'm glad we're not allowed guns despite the fact that I really would like to go to a gun club and break my wrist firing off a few rounds of a desert eagle. We live in a society with fucking idiots - because of this, we need to make concessions.

Oh and another thing - it's absolutely right that the farmer went to prison. I'd have loved to be there and watch that shit **** die but the point is he shot someone in the back. Even though they had just robbed again/were trying to vandalise/whatever his place again he acted with undue force and got done. Imagine he got off - the courts would be saying hey, it's ok to shoot people as long as it looks like they're trying to do something bad. His life was in 0 danger when he shot them, I sympathise with the guy but the sentence was just.
 

throdgrain

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I disagree with you Nath on this one, as you may expect, and the subject is wildly away from my original point, ie I want to shoot my gun, I dont want to hurt anyone, and I resent the wankers in the government telling me Im not allowed.
 

Gumbo

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Barras wasn't running away when Tony Martin shot him, If you read the court reports you will see the forensic people said he was shot as he was bent over a holdall stuffing Tony Martins silver into it. Absolutly fair game if you ask me.

Legally held handguns were banned in this country in a knee jerk labour government inspired response to Dunblane where a licensed gun owner killed a bunch of kids. Interestingly 2 of the 4 handguns he used were illegally held and unlicensed.

Tony Martin had had his shotgun license removed after he shot the back out of a delivery van, so he did have a little previous, but I still have no problem at all with taking out one of the thieving pikey sum who were inside his home, taking his belongings, again.

Yes guns are just designed to kill things, in fact that's all I use mine for, though I am a bit tempted to test my skills against others with that air rifle golf type thing throdders seems to like.
 

Tom

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nath said:
Fact is, guns are designed to kill people. Knives are designed to cut up your dinner.

Really? I thought the original purpose of a knife was to kill animals for food.
 

Driwen

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Tom said:
Really? I thought the original purpose of a knife was to kill animals for food.
I think people would rather use a spear/sling/bow and arrow to kill wild life than a weapon that requires you to get within 1 feet of the animal. Knifes were more to cut up the meat and get the skin/slice it or leather.
 

nath

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Tom said:
Really? I thought the original purpose of a knife was to kill animals for food.

Not kitchen knives. As far as I recall, combat knives (which are designed for use against animals/humans) are restricted though I may be wrong. If I'm not wrong, I also believe they're not quite as restricted as guns - but then they're not as lethal as guns are they.

And either way - knives are no where near as dangerous as guns. Throd I know how you feel with respect to not being able to shoot your gun for sport/leisure, as I said before I'd love to do that. However I personally believe the risk is too much.

Thinking about this did make me think about what was displayed in Bowling For Columbine - the fact that in Canada guns are about as freely available as they are in the states, but gun crime/death is not even close. You could use this fact to argue that we could legalise guns here again and still be ok, but I honestly don't think you can compare so easily. There's so many factors involved in a gun crime beyond gun availability that comparing two nations gun law/gun death ratio is just doesn't prove anything.
 

Tom

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But to use the same analogy, hunting rifles aren't meant to kill people - although they're capable of doing it (just as a knife is). Many firearms are designed specifically for hunting, target practice, etc. Just because a minority of pillocks decide they're better used to hurt people doesn't mean they should be banned.

So what is the difference? I can point a gun and shoot it and hurt somebody. I can grab a knife and throw it and hurt somebody. Either way could result in death or serious injury.

This country is fast turning into "I don't like it, so lets ban it". Its a disgrace.
 

nath

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It's still possible to get shotguns for use with hunting and clay pidgeons etc. Oh and it's not a disgrace at all - it basically comes down to where you draw the line. Would you find it acceptable to own assault rifles? How about RPG's, frag grenades etc. The point is, knives are considerably less dangerous than guns there's absolutely no arguing that fact. The line has been drawn at shotguns and (as far as I recall, though I may well be wrong) some very low calibre rifles - I'd really like to shoot loads of different guns at a range, I can't but tough shit on us as far as I'm concerned. Like I said, if you want to live in a modern society you can't do everything you want because *you* deem it acceptable for *you* to do.
 

throdgrain

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No I agree with Tom. My rifle is made as a hunting rifle, even though I rarely use it as such, I use it as a target rifle.
After the election the Tories are talking about "reviewing airgun laws" , guess who suffers then ? yup, my £500's worth (at least) of rifle kit gets the knock. And no doubt my two pistols. Not fair.
I like vindaloo, maybe you dont, but it doesnt mean to say you have to stop ME eating it :/
 

nath

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Vindaloo can't be used as a (very effective) offensive weapon though can it. That's my point about the whole society thing - you know you can use the gun safely and not attack anyone with it, but laws aren't designed for individuals - they're designed to best fit the population as a whole. That means plenty of people are going to be pissed off with it. Tough luck imo :\
 

throdgrain

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You try it in the eye mate!!

Seriously, the point is that the vast majority and I mean VAST majority of gun crime is with illegal guns, and was too even before the banning of handguns. So really, its , to me, the same thing as everything else in this country, the law abiding citizens have to pay, and the criminals continue to get away with it.
I drive my car at 80 mph on the m4 now, I get a speeding ticket, a fine, some points on my licence. Someone whos nicked a car doing the same thing gets nothing. Someone who doesnt have the car registered in his own name gets nothing. And quite possibly that person has no insurance, or MOT. That car is a deadly weapon in his hands, but the chance of him getting caught and stopped for it and much much smaller than me Joe Paying Public getting caught for speeding.
Same with guns. if I own a handgun the only time I will use it is at a shooting range, or in the very unlikely event of having my house attacked and having to defend myself.
Yet Mr Psudo gangster has bought HIS gun in the pub for £200. Its probably not maintained properly, and his only uses for it are to make him look good and in some form of criminal activity.
If handguns were reintroduced I dont think it would make any difference at all to the crime figures. The criminal types can get a pistol far quicker in thier local boozer than by stealing an officially registered and sanctioned piece.

Oh, by the way, I meant the LABOUR government are going to review airgun laws, not the tories. The tories have no chance of being a government.
 

Ch3tan

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Lol, an arms race with criminals? Fuck off, come live in South London. They all have guns anyway. They need to tighten up gun laws and regulate it properly, but they do not need to ban guns ffs.
 

Uncle Sick

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Erm... when did this threat turn into a "Should guns be legal for self-defense or not?" discussion? We were talking about kids and guns and all of a sudden this turns into a piss-off-you-liberal-wankers-if-I-want-to-protect-my-home-I'll-get-a-.50 cal thing.

It's like comparing apples and pears. Guns are designed to kill. Period. Knives are multi-purpose tools. Yes, you can kill someone with it or slice meat with it.

The whole pissy attitude is completely wasted simply because defending your home and the right to bear arms or shooting sports were never the real topic... it's all about the kids, remember?

Anyways.. the best way to deter a burglar is a trained guard dog or two.
Lets say you pick a lock or smash a window and a Rottie or two come around the corner all teeth and bad attitude instinct takes over and le burgler makes a run for it. Reasonable force - self defense.

Now lets say you have a 9mm in your drawer... will the crook here you putting a bullet in the chamber? So lets say you see said crook unplugging your stereo and you pump him full of bullets. That's murder. The crime didn't warrant the means of self defense. At least imfo...

To return to the original topic.

Kids are not allowed to marry until a certain age.
Kids are not allowed to drink alcohol until a certain age.
Kids are not allowed to vote until a certain age.
Kids are not allowed smoke until a certain age.
And, and, and... right?
So why the fuck should they be allowed to handle a deadly firearm??
What is so damn hard to understand about that?
 

nath

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Hate to tell you this Sick, but sometimes - just *sometimes*, threads go off topic :)

As to your point about kids and guns, I totally agree. You really need to be old enough to understand the responsibility of wielding a firearm - even under supervision.
 

Uncle Sick

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nath said:
Hate to tell you this Sick, but sometimes - just *sometimes*, threads go off topic :)

I know, I know...
Sometime it's just the way threads go off-topic that's disturbing.;)
 

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