News Whaling Petition

[Tom]

d

They are not farming the whales. If they were, and killed them humanely I would share your view.

So then you're in favour of banning recreational fishing?

 

[DaGaffer]

d

So then you're in favour of banning recreational fishing?

No because one is industrialised and the other isn't.

 

[Wij]

Public outcry from other areas of the planet, particularly in the west, made western governments put pressure on other governments to ban the whaling.

I blame western governments for not keeping up that pressure for the current situation...

I blame the cetecea for nuking Japan.

 

[Scouse]

So then you're in favour of banning recreational fishing?

Last time I looked I've never hooked a rare 40-ton mammal. Other than in a nightclub.

Plus, I never fish inland - don't see the point if you're not going to kill and eat the fish you catch.

 

[Tom]

But whales aren't rare, and how morally is hooking a fish any different to hooking a whale?

Or is it a case of not caring about creatures with whom we find it difficult to empathise?

 

[ECA]

Whales support the whole ocean ecosystem, why fuck it any harder than we are already?

 

[Scouse]

But whales aren't rare, and how morally is hooking a fish any different to hooking a whale?

Or is it a case of not caring about creatures with whom we find it difficult to empathise?

I was waiting for this. You'd been angling so I figured I'd bite.


Firstly - whale populations are fragile. Minke whale (which are the most hunted whales) populations have crashed recently.

Secondly. Hooking a fish (as opposed to a mammal) reeling it in and then killing it instantly (blow to the head) doesn't take long. Say sub 1-minute on average.

Thirdly. Harpooning a whale, dragging it on board and killing it takes a prolonged amount of time during which the animal suffers greatly. I'd say they also scream loudly, but that's unimportant in this argument.

Fourthly. Whales are (reasonably) intelligent mammals that feel pain in much the same way humans do. Fish do not do this.

Fifthly. I do feel bad every time I kill a fish. I wouldn't kill a whale given the option - because it is different.


There's a complex set of reasons why I'd decide to kill and eat one animal over another. I'm unaware of "empathy" being part of my reasoning.

Also, if I am presented with an argument that shows me that I'm incorrect I have, in the past, actually changed my behaviour. I no longer eat veal because of this.





Edit: I've a stack of other reasons too - which may be more persuasive than the above, but I'm about to have a game of L4D2

 

[Ctuchik]

I don't see any difference between hunting whales, and keeping cows in a field.

not from a moral standpoint its not.

but iirc whales are pretty thinned out in numbers.

 

[gunner440]

What's all the fuss. It's just a whale.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

"We're whaling on the moon..."

New Futurama is back soon.

 

[rynnor]

This is cultural relativism mixed with a big dollop of anti-Japanese racism and I do not support it.

Furthermore I would consider it the height of hypocrisy for people who eat pork/beef to take the moral high ground on this issue.

 

[Scouse]

Even given the above rynnor?

I wouldn't eat pork/beef if wild cows and pigs were harpooned from across the field, left to kick about for a while then dragged unceremoniously onto a concrete slab before being butchered alive.

Don't know how that would make me a hypocrite.

 

[gunner440]

Food is food. Just be thankful it's us eating them and not the other way around. Food chain superiority is something to be proud of.

 

[Tom]

I was waiting for this. You'd been angling so I figured I'd bite.


Firstly - whale populations are fragile. Minke whale (which are the most hunted whales) populations have crashed recently.

Secondly. Hooking a fish (as opposed to a mammal) reeling it in and then killing it instantly (blow to the head) doesn't take long. Say sub 1-minute on average.

Thirdly. Harpooning a whale, dragging it on board and killing it takes a prolonged amount of time during which the animal suffers greatly. I'd say they also scream loudly, but that's unimportant in this argument.

Fourthly. Whales are (reasonably) intelligent mammals that feel pain in much the same way humans do. Fish do not do this.

Fifthly. I do feel bad every time I kill a fish. I wouldn't kill a whale given the option - because it is different.


There's a complex set of reasons why I'd decide to kill and eat one animal over another. I'm unaware of "empathy" being part of my reasoning.

Also, if I am presented with an argument that shows me that I'm incorrect I have, in the past, actually changed my behaviour. I no longer eat veal because of this.





Edit: I've a stack of other reasons too - which may be more persuasive than the above, but I'm about to have a game of L4D2

The article you linked is from 2001. I wouldn't say that was "recently".

There's a fair bit of hypocritical thought on the subject of whaling. I don't buy into the idea that the capture and consumption of certain animals should be socially unacceptable. If you're happy to eat beef et al, then I don't see how you can complain when other people want to eat Whale. Over in Asia its entirely acceptable to eat dogs and cats, but over here its illegal, and the thought of doing so for most people is repulsive. Its nothing more than social conditioning driven by those communist spackers, Greenpeace.

There are more important things to worry about. Battery farming is one of them. Nobody gives a shit, however, because everyone likes cheap chicken. Even free-range chickens are treated like shit, and have a pretty miserable life.

Oh, and species die out all the time. The world won't blink at the loss of whales, sad for humans as that might be.

 

[Tom]

Even given the above rynnor?

I wouldn't eat pork/beef if wild cows and pigs were harpooned from across the field, left to kick about for a while then dragged unceremoniously onto a concrete slab before being butchered alive.

Don't know how that would make me a hypocrite.

So the only animals you'll eat are those that have been produced for and killed by a rather large and unfeeling system of food production?

How do you think people used to eat? At Ye Olde Tescos?

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

This is cultural relativism mixed with a big dollop of anti-Japanese racism and I do not support it.

Working to prevent the extinction of Whales is racism against Japanese?

 

[Tom]

The conservation status of the Minke Whale is currently "least concern".

 

[rynnor]

Working to prevent the extinction of Whales is racism against Japanese?

They arent going extinct and it wouldnt be in the japs interest to make them so.

They are just another type of seafood - eventually even the west will eat them as seafood shortages occur.

 

[rynnor]

On the racist part the anti-whaling 'cause' is a focus for anti-japanese racists to have a semi-respectable front - its like if the BNP hijacked some charitable cause.

Blind Carbon Copy: Sea Shepherd: Heroics, racism, and conservation

An anti-whaling or anti-Japan flag? | Kiwiblog

Its also crazy that we who are munching up all the fish in the North Sea and the Atlantic, pushing them to the edge of extinction seem happy with that but worried about whales that aren't threatened.

I smell the stink of fashionable causes and hypocrisy.

Edit - or this Most Racist Australian Commercial - Video

 

[Pfy]

Even given the above rynnor?

I wouldn't eat pork/beef if wild cows and pigs were harpooned from across the field, left to kick about for a while then dragged unceremoniously onto a concrete slab before being butchered alive.

Don't know how that would make me a hypocrite.

If an animal is not accurately stunned or the correct cartridge strength is not used, the stun will not be effective. The EU Scientific Veterinary Committee estimate that around 5 to 10% of cattle are not stunned effectively with the captive bolt - or up to 230,000 animals a year. These animals experience the pain of being shot in the head and will either be stunned again (a difficult procedure) or continue on for knifing whilst conscious.

In an attempt to improve accuracy, legislation requires that cattle are either confined in a stunning pen or have their heads 'securely fastened'. However, head restraint systems can cause great distress. The MHS says that 17% of abattoirs either do not use a restraint or use an "inefficient" restraint which can result in the stun being delivered ineffectively.

Says abattoir vet Gabriele Meurer, 'Not many animals stand still. They are all upset, some very frightened and some move violently. The animals are never given time to calm down. Sometimes the slaughterman misses, wounding the animal terribly instead of stunning it. It may happen that the second shot cannot be done immediately and the animal is suffering for quite some time.'

- Viva! - Vegetarians International Voice for Animals

Guess I'll go get you some pine nuts and carrots then.

 

[Scouse]

Tom. IMHO I think you've failed to address any of the points I've made in my posts. Your replies have already been answered in my previous post.

However, I will address them (again):

• I didn't argue on the basis of "social acceptability" - I wouldn't particularly find eating whales socially unacceptable if done correctly
• I said that killing whales the way they do is cruel - for this same reason I don't eat veal
• I said that cattle are killed more humanely
• I said that whale numbers are fragile (they are) - sorry if my specific example wasn't good enough for you

To address your argument further:

• I don't give a monkeys if we eat dog or cat as long as it's humane
• I don't give a monkeys what anyone wants to eat in other cultures - it's not racism that drives this
• It doesn't matter if we have an "unfeeling" production line for our meat - it's humane
• I've killed and eaten my own food since I was a young boy - so I understand exactly what it means

Care to address any of these points, Tom? Or are you going to ignore them and repeat the same sentiment again?

 

[Tom]

Tom. IMHO I think you've failed to address any of the points I've made in my posts. Your replies have already been answered in my previous post.

However, I will address them (again):

• I didn't argue on the basis of "social acceptability" - I wouldn't particularly find eating whales socially unacceptable if done correctly
• I said that killing whales the way they do is cruel - for this same reason I don't eat veal
• I said that cattle are killed more humanely
• I said that whale numbers are fragile (they are) - sorry if my specific example wasn't good enough for you

To address your argument further:

• I don't give a monkeys if we eat dog or cat as long as it's humane
• I don't give a monkeys what anyone wants to eat in other cultures - it's not racism that drives this
• It doesn't matter if we have an "unfeeling" production line for our meat - it's humane
• I've killed and eaten my own food since I was a young boy - so I understand exactly what it means

Care to address any of these points, Tom? Or are you going to ignore them and repeat the same sentiment again?

I don't think I've ignored anything, but to suggest that cattle are killed humanely, and to imply that the battery system of keeping hens is a humane method of producing eggs and chicken, is laughable. As Pfy has mentioned above, killing a cow is not without its problems. I think it's hilarious that you presume that keeping cattle in captivity their entire lives before slaughtering them is somehow a more humane way of treating animals than strolling up to a free whale and firing an explosive harpoon into its body. A lifetime of relative misery and a possible few minutes of agony, compared to a life of freedom and a possible few minutes of agony? I know which I'd choose.

The fact is, on this topic you're a hypocrite. I don't know much about whaling or farming, but what I do know makes me certain that there is nothing more inherently cruel or irresponsible about killing whales than there is about modern farming methods.

 

[Scouse]

I disagree Tom. The whales take ages to die, even when harpooned correctly. Half an hour or more is not uncommon.

Aside from the suggestion (that I reject) that cows feel "misery" all their lives - does it take half an hour for the bolt into the brain to work?

As for battery hens - I've not even mentioned that at all. Looks like you're reaching. But either way, I don't buy battery eggs - only soil association approved organic ones. I also don't buy battery chickens - again only soil association approved organically reared free-to-rome-wherever-the-fuck-they-like chickens.

Yes, it costs a fucking fortune - but if it means the animals I buy (for I have to buy them somewhere) haven't suffered too much then that's fine by me.

It's pretty simple - I think the way they kill and butcher whales is cruel, in the same way that veal is cruel. Therefore I wouldn't allow it. I also wouldn't allow battery farms, but can't stop them myself.


I don't see how the above makes me a hypocrite?

 

[Tom]

You sound like the typical modern Good Lifer. "Look at me, I eat only organic approved chickens. Have you seen where they live? In 5-star chicken hotels, with daily massages and Sky TV".

Its bollocks. Justify it however you like, the conditions in which your chicken survives exist not out of some inflated sense of animal welfare, but because a market exists for it. I'm sure the chicken would be happy to know that it will only get to live for less than 100 days, rather than the ten years or more it would expect.

The industry isn't even particularly transparent:

Factory life of ‘organic’ chickens - Times Online

 

[ECA]

On the racist part the anti-whaling 'cause' is a focus for anti-japanese racists to have a semi-respectable front - its like if the BNP hijacked some charitable cause.

Blind Carbon Copy: Sea Shepherd: Heroics, racism, and conservation

An anti-whaling or anti-Japan flag? | Kiwiblog

Its also crazy that we who are munching up all the fish in the North Sea and the Atlantic, pushing them to the edge of extinction seem happy with that but worried about whales that aren't threatened.

I smell the stink of fashionable causes and hypocrisy.

Edit - or this Most Racist Australian Commercial - Video

It's pretty ridiculous to defend whaling by saying anti-whaling activists are anti-Japanese racists.

cmon.

 

[Scouse]

You sound like the typical modern Good Lifer.
The industry isn't even particularly transparent:

Factory life of ‘organic’ chickens - Times Online

And you sound like someone who's changing his argument and (now) using predjudice every time I put up a solid defence.

Here's my solid defence from the article you quoted above - using a quote from your article:

“This is a sham,” said Ritchie Riggs, an organic poultry farmer and adviser to the Soil Association

I only buy wellfare verified produce from trusted sources. Simple eh?

Sorry if, in your eyes, that makes me a "typical modern good lifer" (I'm not). If someone is committing fraud by selling products that aren't what they say that's not my fault - and I already do my best to mitigate that possibility. Hardly the actions of a "hypocrite" eh? Maybe it's the actions of someone with conviction, though.



My stance is simple: I don't eat animals that have been treated cruelly.

Whaling is cruel. Hence I think whaling is bad. You've not actually said anything about that other than "battery farming chickens is cruel". Which I agreed with...

 

[rynnor]

It's pretty ridiculous to defend whaling by saying anti-whaling activists are anti-Japanese racists.

cmon.

The two are bound up to a great extent - I'm not saying everyone who's anti-whaling is intentionally racist but because its an issue of cultural relativism westerners come at the question with strong prejudices that often overflow to the racist stereotype of the Japanese as cruel and heartless.

Fundamentally theres no difference between eating a pig and eating a dog or a horse or a whale - its purely cultural thus theres no real moral basis for one side to tell the other what they should and shouldnt do.

 

[Scouse]

The two are bound up to a great extent - I'm not saying everyone who's anti-whaling is intentionally racist but because its an issue of cultural relativism westerners come at the question with strong prejudices that often overflow to the racist stereotype of the Japanese as cruel and heartless.

Fundamentally theres no difference between eating a pig and eating a dog or a horse or a whale - its purely cultural thus theres no real moral basis for one side to tell the other what they should and shouldnt do.

This is bullshit rynnor.

I've already stated that I've no problem with what anyone else eats. Dog, cat, horse (which is quite nice btw).

I'm objecting to whaling on cruelty (and species preservation) grounds - which most whaling "activists" do.

It's fuck all to do with racism. That's the argument of pro-whalers trying to paint anti-whalers in a bad light. It seems to have worked with you...

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Finding the racism card played by rynnor hilarious after his comments on North Korea.

 

[Jail Bait]

I disagree Tom. The whales take ages to die, even when harpooned correctly. Half an hour or more is not uncommon.

You city dwellers that haven`t hunted ever should not be allowed to eat an meat ever. If you hunt with a bow and arrow the animal can take a half hour to die. Boo Hoo it is food.

In fact one of the deer that I shot last year had an arrow embedded in it, probably for weeks.

Whales are no different to any other animal.

You all probably get all weepy when the Eskimos go out an harvest the seal pups too.