News War with Russia

Embattle

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But this is my point though.

We're pretending that Putin is on a par with Stalin or Hitler, when the reality is that it could be *much* worse and the populace could be *way* more indoctrinated.

That's why I disagree with @Scouse when he says we shouldn't do much due to their nukes, but I genuinely think in their current state, they'd find it difficult to get enough people to agree to it.

If we decided to 1919 Germany them, then yeah, I think the likelihood of creating Stalin 2.0 increases massively, and being able to indoctrinate their population with ease, especially if we isolate them completely.

Obviously Ukraine will want to turn them into dust after all this, because that's the emotional response, the similar emotional response we took to Germany post WW1, it doesn't mean it's the best long term solution for anybody.
He is on the same pathway.

I don't think anyone is proposing doing a German post WW1 on Russia providing they leave Ukraine.

Ukraine doesn't want to turn them into dust, it just wants them out of its country and has been rather restrained when dealing with Russia. I find it even more funny when Russia whinges about alleged attacks from Ukraine inside Russia considering the amount of stuff Russia keeps firing at Ukraine.
 

Wij

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Germany WW1->2?

The only way that I could ever possibly agree with humiliating Russia and destroying their economy is if we go in and take control of all the nukes first.

With modern warfare we could pretty easily hold back a Russia on a kamikaze revenge attack on Western Europe, but when they have nukes too? nah.
There won’t be a treaty of Versailles because no one is proposing that Ukraine marches on Moscow, Just that Russia fucks off out of Ukraine with its tail between its legs. Different thing entirely.
 

Scouse

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Give the school bully only half your dinner money and he will never bother you again.
If he can't come out of this looking like he's gained something he won't leave.

We want him to leave, right?
 

Tom

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I don't want him to leave. I want the Russians to make him leave. Permanently. From a rope or something.

He's a brutal dictator who's stolen everything he has from the Russians. His entire family is dripping with stolen wealth. All his mates are the same, they're all a bunch of crooks who contribute nothing to humanity. All they own should be taken back by the Russian people, and what they can't reach we should grab for them to return.

And if the Russians choose a form of democracy that ensures they'll have a more stable economy and a fairer society, that's when we should be investing in Russia - massively. Just like Germany did when the two halves were recombined.
 

Scouse

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I don't want him to leave. I want the Russians to make him leave. Permanently. From a rope or something
We'd all love that. And everything else you said.

Or rather, people like us do - our ruling class had an opportunity to help that happen - and were begged to by Yeltsin - but we didn't give a shit. A criminal Russia has helped a lot of westerners get even more rich.
 

DaGaffer

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If he can't come out of this looking like he's gained something he won't leave.

We want him to leave, right?
No, we want him to lose. Russia have to be forced into a peace treaty; they can't just fuck off back over the border so they can have another go in a few years. This is really important; the conflict can't be left as unfinished business because if that happens, Ukraine can't join NATO. They can only join if they legally aren't in conflict with another state. Once Ukraine are in NATO they're safe.
 

Embattle

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If he can't come out of this looking like he's gained something he won't leave.

We want him to leave, right?
Technically we've already seen your suggestion with Crimea, he nicked that part of Ukraine and the West did little so you propose to do that again as if you giving a hungry wolf a couple of sheep won't stop it coming back for more.
 

Scouse

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No, we want him to lose. Russia have to be forced into a peace treaty; they can't just fuck off back over the border so they can have another go in a few years. This is really important; the conflict can't be left as unfinished business because if that happens, Ukraine can't join NATO. They can only join if they legally aren't in conflict with another state. Once Ukraine are in NATO they're safe.
I italicised the word "looking" for a reason.

Of course we want him to lose. But he's not going to turn and run with his tail tucked between his legs without inflicting unimaginable suffering on the Ukranian people first. So we have to give him an out that makes him feel like he saves some face.

If we're OK with the suffering bit then we should say that though. Western analysis of this horrible situation says we're not going to get out of this unless we suck some cock ourselves. And we don't like sucking cock, one little bit.

As much as we'd wish for one there is literally no outcome where we come out totally shiny, and he comes out totally fucked. (Of course, his press will say he did fine, and our press will say so did we).


As for Ukraine joining NATO? You're having a laugh I think.
 

Scouse

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Technically we've already seen your suggestion with Crimea, he nicked that part of Ukraine and the West did little so you propose to do that again as if you giving a hungry wolf a couple of sheep won't stop it coming back for more.
Not my suggestion at all m8. That's not what "build a golden bridge" means.
 

Gwadien

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I mean, do you expect Russia to give up Crimea even if they *lose* this war?
 

DaGaffer

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I italicised the word "looking" for a reason.

Of course we want him to lose. But he's not going to turn and run with his tail tucked between his legs without inflicting unimaginable suffering on the Ukranian people first. So we have to give him an out that makes him feel like he saves some face.

If we're OK with the suffering bit then we should say that though. Western analysis of this horrible situation says we're not going to get out of this unless we suck some cock ourselves. And we don't like sucking cock, one little bit.

As much as we'd wish for one there is literally no outcome where we come out totally shiny, and he comes out totally fucked. (Of course, his press will say he did fine, and our press will say so did we).


As for Ukraine joining NATO? You're having a laugh I think.
Ukraine absolutely need to be in NATO. Only way to definitively stop Russian aggression.
 

Scouse

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Ukraine absolutely need to be in NATO. Only way to definitively stop Russian aggression.
Might happen in 30 years:

Joe Biden to Ukranian leaders said:
To be very blunt about it, and this is a delicate thing to say to a group of leaders in their house of parliament, but you have to fight the cancer of corruption that is endemic in your system right now
By which time, who knows what the world will look like.
 

Yoni

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Photographs I do not get to take every day... according to the US (NYT) to serve as a warning to Russia and expectations of Swe & Fin once they join Nato:

“The Russians have their Baltic fleet,” General Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said, but NATO would have its own slew of member countries wrapped around the Baltic Sea once Sweden and Finland join. In essence, the Baltic would become a NATO lake, save for St. Petersburg and Kalingrad.
“From a Russian perspective, that would be very problematic for them, militarily speaking,” General Milley said.


...according to Swedish press:

Baltic Operations, Baltops 22, the 51st iteration of a maritime-focused exercise, takes place from June 5-17 in the southern Baltic Sea area.
Sixteen nations with over 45 maritime units, more than 75 aircraft, and approximately 7 000 personnel will participate in Baltops 22.

Baltops 22 provides a unique training opportunity that strengthens combined response capabilities critical to maintaining freedom of navigation, and preserving regional security and stability. The live training events include areas such as air defence, anti-submarine warfare, maritime interdiction, mine countermeasure, amphibious operations, medical response and search and rescue.
This year's exercise is hosted by Sweden under the backdrop of the Swedish Navy's 500th anniversary.
 

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Wij

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I kinda feel the Duma is a bit of a joke, i mean Putin does what he wants he doesn't really need them it seems. So they can say whatever i guess
They wouldn’t say anything that Putin doesn’t approve of though.
 

Embattle

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In essence they were pulling it in for storage before it got harder or they had to commit to reducing reliance on Russia.
 

Ormorof

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Im surprised its so little, if thats a 60% increase Germany were barely importing anything before, assume it does not include gas/oil/coal

For comparison UK imported ~25 billion usd worth of stuff from Russian last year according to Google but not sure if that includes energy stuff (seems Gold is main import from Russia United Kingdom (GBR) and Russia (RUS) Trade | OEC )
 

Gwadien

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To be honest, I don't really understand why the Russian Government just doesn't seize all pro-Ukraine foreign assets *now*...

I mean there's no point trying to keep up and pretence that they're live in a free country, so why don't they just grab what they can before it's all taken out of the country?

Russian allies/neutral countries would love it as it gives them a void to step into.
 

Raven

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To be honest, I don't really understand why the Russian Government just doesn't seize all pro-Ukraine foreign assets *now*...

I mean there's no point trying to keep up and pretence that they're live in a free country, so why don't they just grab what they can before it's all taken out of the country?

Russian allies/neutral countries would love it as it gives them a void to step into.
They can do what they like. The Russian people won't want cheapo crap, they will want Nike (and assorted other brands) which they can no longer have. Brands pulling out is designed to upset the population, who in turn will turn on their government. We know Putin wants to return to the cold war years when people wore beige, but the population don't, they are already too westernised for it.
 

Embattle

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Actually brands pulling out isn't about upsetting Russia markets as much as the simple calculation of brand damage causing more losses in the west whether that is Sales, share price, etc.

In the end it is good business to pull out.
 

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