War on Iraq survey

[Ceap]

and regarding WW2, germany was severly bogged down on the eastern front, russian winter was slaughtering them. while its true that the US helped our victory, over time the battle would have gone our way.

i'm grateful for their intervention then, and if a similar situation i agreed with occured i would be happy for the US to step in.

what i dislike is their arrogance. repeatedly they have shifted the purpose of the war from regime change to WMD to funding Al Quaeda. they claimed Iraq could ready WMD in 45 mins. where were the attacks? There was a forged Niger connection, the false claims of terrorism funding. when the UN wouldnt sanction in, the us went in anyway.
The head magistrate in the UK (his title and name escape me) whose job it was to decide if an unsanctioned invasion would be legal under international law declared afterwards that we would need to find WMD for the move to have been acceptable, because of the strength of conviction tony blair was showing as he campaigned for the war.

Now Alistair Cambell's job is on the line, Rumsfeld is seperating himself from the UK 'dodgy dossier'; a top scientist commits suicide by slicing his own throat...

 

[chosen]

im for the war, just wanne get saddam removed

 

[Falcor]

lol i really hate ppl who flame about world war 2 without understanding what they r saying, the luftwaffe lost the battle of britain thanks to the huricane and spitfire, they lost the majority of there airforce and britain had air superiorty so they could of NEVER landed on england, the russians by that time were driving the nazis back, it would of been bloody, and harder for england but the nazis were finished when hitler decided to invade russia, if he ahdnt of done that, then the war could of been different....the americans ofc made a big difference to the war theres no doubt, but only in terms of man power mostly, and an army of sherman tanks, most artillery, sea power, and air power was brittish, most of the us fleets were tied up in the pacific, as was there carriers and majority of there air force..

As for iraq, yes it need regime change, does iraq have wmd? yes does it support terrorists? yes, was this the reason for war, this im am not sure, but tbh i think u all know that iraq has wmd somewhere thats for sure, could he launch in 45mins? i think thats bollacks, was iraq a danger YES most definitely

 

[--Eraser--]

most of you really miss the point in my opinion. who cares if USA made the difference in WW2 or not. beeing "thankful" for their help/interference is one thing, but that doesnt legitimize them to do what they want.

its the same think just the other way around with us germans. of cause we all need to think and remember what happend there in the fascism regime and its a good thing that this history is been told over and over again in german schools.
but on the other hand you cant blame the germans of today, the younger generation, with these things. cause things developed and the nation changed (haha i remember this daoc-style iraq-chat here on BW, germany:"we re just not into the violence anymore...").

and of course most of the germans are actually not happy about the conflict between germany and the US. we still want to be thankful course its a fact that with alternatives to the marshall-plan like the morgentau-one germany would not be where it is today. we apprechiate the trust that was given in our county.
but this all doesnt mean that you cant stand up against your friend when you think hes doing wrong. even more its a duty.
ok maybe i drove off the topic a bit far...anyway, just my opinion on this one.

 

[yeahyeah]

Originally posted by --Eraser--
most of you really miss the point in my opinion. who cares if USA made the difference in WW2 or not. beeing "thankful" for their help/interference is one thing, but that doesnt legitimize them to do what they want.

its the same think just the other way around with us germans. of cause we all need to think and remember what happend there in the fascism regime and its a good thing that this history is been told over and over again in german schools.
but on the other hand you cant blame the germans of today, the younger generation, with these things. cause things developed and the nation changed (haha i remember this daoc-style iraq-chat here on BW, germany:"we re just not into the violence anymore...").

and of course most of the germans are actually not happy about the conflict between germany and the US. we still want to be thankful course its a fact that with alternatives to the marshall-plan like the morgentau-one germany would not be where it is today. we apprechiate the trust that was given in our county.
but this all doesnt mean that you cant stand up against your friend when you think hes doing wrong. even more its a duty.
ok maybe i drove off the topic a bit far...anyway, just my opinion on this one.

No one is blaming the germans. imo germany and the nazi's were too seperate entities. In ww2, england got invloved when the nazi's (not germany) invaded poland. Hence trying to topple a tyrant. Sound familiar. Adolf hitler killed, tortured, raped his own. Sound familiar? So really, if u are against the war in iraq, then you have to say that ww2 was wrong and that we should of left adolf hitler alone. So all you anti war on iraq people are total hypocrites. Saddam was a threat to world peace and dont say he wasnt and needed removing, just like adolf hitler.

 

[Arnor]

Originally posted by Karam_gruul
maybe i dont like the yanks that much after all...

I dont blame you, you being a

Originally posted by Karam_gruul
nazisisist

 

[Arnor]

Originally posted by yeahyeah
and why do u have to go about it bein about fuckin oil. Of course it wasnt. You knobs all watch too much fuckin TV. I asked a close mate of mine who was in iraq and he just laughed. "about fuckin oil?? of course it wasnt about fuckin oil" So u tellin me that all you lot know more than sum1 who actually served in iraq?? No, i dont think so.

oh, random hillbilly-retard-grunt #13278625 said that it wasnt about oil... cant argue with that umm, you know...research

 

[Ceap]

to say that to oppose this war is to oppose WW2 is farcical.

let me give you some examples.

there are times when it becomes nessecary to play god and remove dictators. and the us knows alot about it...


here is a list of us involvments since WW2. the come from Rogue State, by W. Blum, who was a member of the U.S. State Dept. before becoming appaled at the way his nation used the machinery of power to their own ends.

China: 1945-51 - US aids Chiang Kai-shek's nationalist party against Mao Tse Tung's communists

France: 1947 - US underminds the Communist Party (most of whom had been members of the Resistance. Some of this included diverting funds from the Marshall Plan for this purpose

Marshall Islands: 1946-58 - US tests ICBMs in the Pacific, forcing people from the surrounding islands (Bikini Atoll etc) to relocate. in 1968 Johnson tells the people of Bikini Atoll that the land is safe for people again, only to leave after discovery of huge doses of radiation. in 1983 the US says the people are safe to return home, so long as they eat no home grown food till the 21st century.

Italy: 1947-1970s - 1947 US forces the Italian govmt to dismiss all Socialist and Communist members of the ruling coalition. The CIA then wages a propaganda campaign against the new Socialist-Communist coalition, while funding the Christain Demoscrat party

Greece: 1947-49 - US sides with neo-facists against the communists with whom they'd fought off the nazis. the neo-facists won and plunged Greece into dictatorship for 15 yrs

Phillipines: 1945-53 - While the leftist Huk forces were fighting the Japanese, the US were fighting them. After the war, the US funded a organisation, which, together with CIA assistance, overthrew the Huk and put President Marcos in power. dictatorship and repression followed.

Korea: 1945-53 - US supresses reformist (left-wing) parties (whom it had allied with during the war) in favour of the pro-japanese Conservative party. this leads to the split between north and south korea, the korean war and the current state of north korea today.

Albania: 1949-53 - US and British forces infiltrate the country to try to overthrow the Communist govmt. The party they are trying to get into power is mostly ex-facista and collaborators with Axis powers during the war.

Eastern Europe: 1948 - 56 - Allen Dulles (CIA Director) persuades Jozef Swwiatlo (Polish Security Official) to use Noel Field to spread propaganda amongst Eastern Europe, leading to show trials and executions, and an estimated 100,000+ imprisoned.

Germany: 1950s - CIA propoganda and dirty tricks campaign. As part of Operation Gladio CIA makes a secret army, which conducts a terror campaign, including the bombing of the Bolgna railway in 1980 (86 dead). The purpose of the group is to create a left-wing scapegoat to undermine left-wing organistations.

Iran: 1953 - P.M. Mossadegh is overthrown by US - British forces, despite being democratically elected. The coup restores the Shah to power, leading to 25yrs of repression and torture.

Guatemala: 1953 - 1990s - CIA coup overthrew democratically elected government led by Jacobo Arbenz, instigating 40 yers of death squads, torture that leads to the deaths of an estimated 200,000 people. This was in part caused by the president reclaiming some land from United Fruit Companies, to return to the people. the land was uncultivated and being left fallow and unused.

Costa Rica: mid-1950s; 1970-71 - Jose Figueres was hailed as a liberal democrat, a progressive (slightly left-wing) politician feted by the us democrats. Yet the US tried to overthrow him and led two assasination attempts. this was in part due to his questioning of the Bay of Pigs fiasco

Middle East: 1956-58 - US tries to overthrow Syrian Govmt, lands 14,000 troops in the lebanon, moves its armada and troops around the mediteranean in a show of force against anti us demonstrations in Jordan and Lebanon and tried to overthrow Nasser of Egypt.

Indonesia: 1957-58 - Sukarno, a keen nationalist and neutralist during the cold war, was slandered with a 'phony sex film', attacked by a coup, and survived many assasination attempts. the US funded other parties during the elections.

Haiti: 1959 - US uses its troops to train the forces of noted dictator Francios Duvalier, and helps put down an uprising that looked to overthrow him.

Western Europe: 1950s-60s - CIA uses US organistations and charities to funnel money into anti communist organiations.

Guyana: 1953-64 - US and Britain undermines democratically elected leader Cheddi Jagan, forcing him from office.

Iraq: 1958 - 63 - July 1958 General Kassem overthrows the monarchy and establishes a republic. His socailist-reformist leanings result in the US plotting with Turkey to invade the country, until the Soviets said they would join in on the side of Iraq. He reported to Le Monde in 1963 that he had recieved a warning from the US govmt 'change your ways or else'. he was overthrown days later, and executed. de-classified papers from the British Cabinet show the the coup was backed by (guess who ) Britain and the US

I'm now just going to concentrate on the Iraq issue, for further reading please consult Rogue State, William Blum, ISBN - 1 84277 221 X

Iraq: 1972-75 - Kissinger (watch that name, war criminal) funds the Kurds fighting for freedom (favour for the Iranian Shah) - a total of $16 milion. The purpose was not to free the Kurds, but to sap Iraq's strenght and distract it from Iran. CIA memo, 1974: 'Iran, like ourselves, has seen benefit in a stalemate situation...neither Iran nor ourselves wish to see the matter resolved one way or another'. Congessional Pike comittee, set up to investigate, declares 'This policy was no imparted to [the Kurds], who were encouraged to continue fighting. Even in the context of covert action, ours was a cynical exercise'.
1975 - Iran and Iraq unite over oil, and Iran and the US abandon the Kurds, despite desperate please for aid. this lead to the deaths of hundreds of their leaders, and countless kurds. Kissenger remarked 'covert action should not be confused with missionary work'.

there is more information on these instances, and many more instances.

i do not have to hand information regarding Saddam's rise to power. It was, however, at the head of a US funded coup. He was, 'our kind of guy', and during the Iran / Iraq war the us sold arms to both sides (as with UK during the India / Pakistan encounter recently).

this is why i distrust the US.

further reading:

John Pilger, anything he has written, but notable Heroes, New Ruelrs of the World, Distant Voices

Chomsky: A new generation draws the line, Manufacturing Consent, Culture of Terrorism

there are many other great authors, i cant list nor do justice to them all

www.medialens.org
www.indymedia.org

 

[Staan]

Where is all the french bashing ?

 

[shadybrack]

ceap u got too much time on ur hands?

 

[Ceap]

nah just got sick of people not understanding the situation, or only looking so far as their nose.

by all means agree with the war, but recognise the inherent problems when an Oil man invades a country with the second highest Oil reserves in the world, using evidence which is now falling apart under close scrutiny.

also, bear in mind their less than illustrious history of 'nation building'

cba to argue with people whose idea of balanced reportage is the daily murdoch TBH

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by Ceap
nah just got sick of people not understanding the situation, or only looking so far as their nose.

by all means agree with the war, but recognise the inherent problems when an Oil man invades a country with the second highest Oil reserves in the world, using evidence which is now falling apart under close scrutiny.

also, bear in mind their less than illustrious history of 'nation building'

cba to argue with people whose idea of balanced reportage is the daily murdoch TBH

which is why i also said i will have to wait and see what happens now . I do believe that the USA will do better than they have done in the countries you mentioned, but as you pointed out the USA has its recent history against itself ..

 

[yeahyeah]

Originally posted by Arnor
oh, random hillbilly-retard-grunt #13278625 said that it wasnt about oil... cant argue with that umm, you know...research

Fuck off u little fuckin shit. A lot of brave people (yes including my mate) went to fight in iraq and u have the nerve to call him a hillbilly grunt. Fuckin hell, id love to see u call him that to his face. But alas, your sat behind a pc in a SHITE country known as norway. What a fuckin maggot u are. Its ok for u. u live in a country where all the men are queer (fact) u dont even have a fuckin army.

 

[Ceap]

rofl yeahyeah well argued and reasoned response...

sorry to hear that all norwegians are gay

ow and did you know that in the first gulf war the number one killer of british troops was...


BLUE ON BLUE!!!

(stray US bullets)

 

[Coim-]

Sheesh, someone close this thread.

 

[hercules-df]

Originally posted by Trinilim
My comments and opinions on the war?

Frankly


I don't care.

Do whatever you like, as long as my friend's, my family's, and my life are content, I couldn't care less about what the people in Washington do. Call me selfish, but I really don't see why I should care about what they do. Not as though I can do anything to stop it if I oppose anyway.

well said, and i agree

 

[Ceap]

there is a saying in politics, it goes like this

"only those people who don't vote get the government they deserve"

what happens in the world affects us. If we allow corporations to pump polutants into the air and water, then it will become toxic and our lives will become shit

if we sell weapons to third world dictators, then immigration / refugee's will increase

if we rob the poor to feed the rich, the poor will eventually revolt

if we work together to live in a form of mutual respect (albeit it mistrustful or thinly held together) then we will maintain a status quo for far longer than if we bury our heads in the sand

one day, it will affect your family.

if cigarette companies can advertise to kids, then your children might die of cancer, for instance

most people forget that Sept 11th was originally a day of US agression..... that day was chosen for its significance.

(don't for a second think i am condoning or accepting or justifying those attacks. killing of civilians is wrong whoever does it. but while there is no justifications, there are reasons, and dammed good ones at that. it was still grossly wrong tho)

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by yeahyeah
Fuck off u little fuckin shit. A lot of brave people (yes including my mate) went to fight in iraq and u have the nerve to call him a hillbilly grunt. Fuckin hell, id love to see u call him that to his face. But alas, your sat behind a pc in a SHITE country known as norway. What a fuckin maggot u are. Its ok for u. u live in a country where all the men are queer (fact) u dont even have a fuckin army.

What the soldiers say isnt really a fact though, would the soldiers know what the goverment actual wish is? My guess is no as why the hell would the goverment tell the soldiers that? Better to tell them the same propaganda they tell the rest of us...

 

[Ceap]

Originally posted by yeahyeah
u dont even have a fuckin army.

since when was this a bad thing?

 

[Cap'n Sissyfoo]

Originally posted by yeahyeah
Fuck off u little fuckin shit. A lot of brave people (yes including my mate) went to fight in iraq and u have the nerve to call him a hillbilly grunt. Fuckin hell, id love to see u call him that to his face. But alas, your sat behind a pc in a SHITE country known as norway. What a fuckin maggot u are. Its ok for u. u live in a country where all the men are queer (fact) u dont even have a fuckin army.

Ha ha! You are so retarded you make Repent look like Einstein.

 

[Coim-]

Originally posted by Sissyfoo
Ha ha! You are so retarded you make Repent look like Einstein.

 

[hercules-df]

 

[yeahyeah]

Originally posted by Sissyfoo
Ha ha! You are so retarded you make Repent look like Einstein.

Nahh, its all u cunts that think cos youve seen loads of crap films means u know why the iraq war was fought and hence protest about it that are retarded. If u dont live in the uk andamerica I dont see why u should reply to this post cos u all live in really shit countries that dont even deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as the uk and america. i mean, wtf, what do countries such as belgium, france, spain bring to the world?? apart from being a strain on the eu?? fuck all. Your armies are shite. Your economies are even worse. Would be funny to see the uk leave europe and go with the US cos then we'd see how fucked up europe really is

 

[Coim-]

I live in the UK, and if i recall correctly many european countries (eg. Germany) have better economies than us.

 

[Cap'n Sissyfoo]

~rolls eyes~

I *do* live in the UK and therefore use my rights as a UK citizen to post in this thread and tell you that you are a complete moron.

Out of curiosity, where do *you* live? I only ask because I notice that Arnor's written english is far superior to the gibberish you spray all over the forums, not to mention your total lack of knowledge of current affairs.

 

[yeahyeah]

SO my spelling and grammar aint the best. Big fuckin deal. And i dont read the fuckin "times". So fuckin what. Grats, your intellect is far supperior to mine

 

[Coim-]

That's *superior.

 

[Ekydus]

Your friend went to a pointless war whoopdefuckingdoo. You've proven that you're bias.

The war WAS pointless. However, I do think the only positive thing about it was getting rid of Sadam Hussein. That weirdo dictator was a nuclear war waiting to happen.

I live in the UK, propaganda or not I do think the war put the world on edge which was not needed. To me it just looked like George Bush was flexing his muscles and had to take some anger out on someone at the same time after 9/11, and Tony Blair doesn't want to EVER get on the wrong side of him. America and Britain have always been known as very close allies and a simple thing like that may have fucked up our future with them.

The soldiers don't sign up to go to war over how they believe. They get told. Whether your friend is brave or not yeahyeah does not contribute the to fact the war was a pointless one and as of such has aroused lots of interest within the EU over the real reasons. Despite of Arnor's wording, he made a good point. Just because your friend said so does not make it so. Ofcourse he isn't goigg to want to know he was risking his life over oil. I'm not saying I believe it was about oil, I don't know what it was about and I am just stating what I see.

 

[Cap'n Sissyfoo]

Yeahyeah, I am gonna let you in on a little secret that we 'intellectual supperiors' tend to keep to ourselves;

The Sun isn't a valid source of information when it comes to current affairs!!

If you need to find out how big Jordan's boobs are or who ~insert random football player~ is having an affair with then it is an ideal rag to read but if you are going to try and convince people that America and the UK are superior to all the countries in the EU then you will need to look elsewhere to back up your wild claims.

Oh, and one other thing, the US economy is currently so totally fucked that it makes Bangkok Betty, the infamous Thai whore, look like Mother friggin' Teresa!

 

[Ceap]

Originally posted by yeahyeah
Nahh, its all u cunts that think cos youve seen loads of crap films means u know why the iraq war was fought and hence protest about it that are retarded. B]

name one 'crap film' that explains 'why the iraq war was fought'.