US election 2008

[Marc]

I wonder what odds you would get of Obama winning the presidency and then getting assinated within 6 months.

Evens?

 

[Iceforge]

I wonder what odds you would get of Obama winning the presidency and then getting assinated within 6 months.

Evens?

Unfortunately thats the only downside, the increased risk on an assassination because there will be some racist bastards who can't live with a black president

 

[Gorbachioo]

Seems pointless to argue with you, as you take you opinion and keep stating it like it is facts

"there really no disagreement on that" WHAT? I just disagreed with you, but oh no, lets belittle anyone who disagrees opinion and say it doesn't count. Really nice way to argue.

And as said, they want to pull out the american military troops, but will still aid with advisors and stuff, which should be enough to assure peace. You act like you think they are just going to pull everybody out, leaving nothing and saying "good luck" and then turn their back on the entire thing and ignore genocide (if it should happen), I mean, WTF?
That is not what they are saying and if you think thats what they want to do, then you, my friend, are ignorant.

And answer me honestly: Do you think american military troopers being present there creates MORE or LESS conflicts than if the Iraqis found their own countrymen keeping order instead?

Well anyone who knows about these things wont disagree with that. You dont count, sorry xd.

How exactly will those advisors prevent a civil war? They will have to pick a side and the other side will not allow its leadership or a democratic system.

Leaving a couple of advisors behind is the same as just leaving. Again, what the hell can those advisors really do? All this talk about advisors is nothing but politics. Sitting on the fence and trying to convince everyone. They are there or they are not. Its just that simple. Whether im ignorant or not is a whole other discussion but right now i am right.


Try to understand this. They hate eachother just as much as they hate the americans and they will not allow one faction to rule another. Nor will they allow a democratic goverment because as you know, democracy is a system where 51% of the people can take away the rights of the rest 49%.

So my honest answer to you is this: YES, the best thing americans can do right now is to stay. The war can be won and will be won in a couple of years.

 

[Binky the Bomb]

Ron Jeremy for President

 

[Iceforge]

Well anyone who knows about these things wont disagree with that. You dont count, sorry xd.

How exactly will those advisors prevent a civil war? They will have to pick a side and the other side will not allow its leadership or a democratic system.

Leaving a couple of advisors behind is the same as just leaving. Again, what the hell can those advisors really do? All this talk about advisors is nothing but politics. Sitting on the fence and trying to convince everyone. They are there or they are not. Its just that simple. Whether im ignorant or not is a whole other discussion but right now i am right.


Try to understand this. They hate eachother just as much as they hate the americans and they will not allow one faction to rule another. Nor will they allow a democratic goverment because as you know, democracy is a system where 51% of the people can take away the rights of the rest 49%.

So my honest answer to you is this: YES, the best thing americans can do right now is to stay. The war can be won and will be won in a couple of years.

You seem to think it will be settled in a short time "a couple of years". Well, there is 1 year until they will be out with Obama's plan (Election in november + 3 months = Feb '09).

Also, your analysis about Democracy is true for ANY democracy, be it Iraq, UK or USA, so what does that has to do with ANYTHING???

The military units that are to be trained will follow orders from the democratic elected government and will be in place to hold order according to the laws and orders by the governement.

And the ignorance about "Anyone know who's anything about this" just means "Anybody who only know what I know thinks like I do" actually, it is about opening your horizon and accept other views! This will be my last reply in this specific debate, won't mind answering other things in the thread, but my time will just be wasted if I have to argue again and again with someone who so plainly is ignorant´and insist he is right without doing any arguementation for his view, other than keep saying "I'm RIGHT! I'm RIGHT!" like a broken record, and putting down anyone who oppose his views by claiming, without documenting, that all who got knowledge on the issue will agree with him.

Fact in this debate remains that you have not displayed one single arguement for being right, but has just stuck to your side like a child afraid to loose his blanket.

 

[Ezteq]

Ron Jeremy for President

ha hell i'd vote for him!.. actually i would really vote for ron jeremy than any of the bozo's we got in the UK tbh.

 

[Gorbachioo]

You seem to think it will be settled in a short time "a couple of years". Well, there is 1 year until they will be out with Obama's plan (Election in november + 3 months = Feb '09).

Also, your analysis about Democracy is true for ANY democracy, be it Iraq, UK or USA, so what does that has to do with ANYTHING???

The military units that are to be trained will follow orders from the democratic elected government and will be in place to hold order according to the laws and orders by the governement.

And the ignorance about "Anyone know who's anything about this" just means "Anybody who only know what I know thinks like I do" actually, it is about opening your horizon and accept other views! This will be my last reply in this specific debate, won't mind answering other things in the thread, but my time will just be wasted if I have to argue again and again with someone who so plainly is ignorant´and insist he is right without doing any arguementation for his view, other than keep saying "I'm RIGHT! I'm RIGHT!" like a broken record, and putting down anyone who oppose his views by claiming, without documenting, that all who got knowledge on the issue will agree with him.

Fact in this debate remains that you have not displayed one single arguement for being right, but has just stuck to your side like a child afraid to loose his blanket.

Well first of all, why exactly are you getting so personal?

That couple of years was ofcourse just a guess. But i think most people would agree that it will be more or less over in 5 years.

The difference is that in most other democracies dont have such hatred between their ethnic groups like in Iraq. So ofcourse the sunnis dont want to be ruled by the shiites.

The american advisors/trainers and the soldiers they train will be on the side of the elected goverment. Exactly, and the insurgents will fight them. But how do you suggest these people will win the war if the most expensive army in the world cant do it? (Do remember that i already explained why they will be in the same situation)

There is no disagreement on what will happen in Iraq if americans leave now. And most people agree that the war in Iraq will be won soon. You might not, but then do you really claim to know more than journalists and political experts?


If you wish to end this conversation here then do so, but you still havent convinced me that im not a 100% right.

 

[Iceforge]

Well first of all, why exactly are you getting so personal?

That couple of years was ofcourse just a guess. But i think most people would agree that it will be more or less over in 5 years.

The difference is that in most other democracies dont have such hatred between their ethnic groups like in Iraq. So ofcourse the sunnis dont want to be ruled by the shiites.

The american advisors/trainers and the soldiers they train will be on the side of the elected goverment. Exactly, and the insurgents will fight them. But how do you suggest these people will win the war if the most expensive army in the world cant do it? (Do remember that i already explained why they will be in the same situation)

There is no disagreement on what will happen in Iraq if americans leave now. And most people agree that the war in Iraq will be won soon. You might not, but then do you really claim to know more than journalists and political experts?


If you wish to end this conversation here then do so, but you still havent convinced me that im not a 100% right.

Finally, some actual arguements. This I can work with (so going back to replying)

Okay, well, as I see it, you're arguement is that it will not be any less a problem with riots and civil war like attacks without the american army present, well, lets assume for now that you are indeed right about that. Lets say that the situation is the same if it is Iraq military or US military that is the military force present.

How do you suppose the presense of American soldiers for 5 more years is going to change anything? Will the American soldiers presense make it so that in 5 years, the sunnis want to be ruled by the shiites? (Are those the actual English terms for their lines of faith? Really different from Danish ones)

If you think 5 years of American soliders presense will change that, how do you suppose that their presense will have the influence to change it which their own military will not be able to do?

Who are those political and journalistic experts you are refering to, as I have seen no indications anywhere from any experts (Journalistic or Political) which says that the war will be won soon. I actually heard a lot of experts say the excat opposit, that staying there will only lead to more riots, more violence and make it easier for terrorist groups to recruit members into their ranks, and the last part, is a fact. While the riots and violence might not decrease by US military forces leaving, according to your arguement, hopefully you won't be so blindsighted as to dispute that the grounds for hatred against western influence will be lessened and hence terroristgroups will have a harder time recruiting, if the US military forces leaves?

How come the violence between the Sunnis and Shiites was less before the US military forces arrived into the country, yet you claim them leaving won't change a thing?
Do you think that the people of Iraq are only able to live in dictatorships without slaughtering each other?
Do you think the lack of Saddam Hussein specificly is causing the commotion that makes the violence between the ethnic groups spike like it has since the war?
Or is it the lack of influence, meaning 1 ethnic group feeling oppressed and unheard, in which case it might be worth asking if the right solution rather than occupation wouldn't be splitting the country into 2 groups so each group could lead their own government (which then might war each other, or might not, but that can be influenced by politics more easily than civil-war)

 

[Gorbachioo]

Finally, some actual arguements. This I can work with (so going back to replying)

Okay, well, as I see it, you're arguement is that it will not be any less a problem with riots and civil war like attacks without the american army present, well, lets assume for now that you are indeed right about that. Lets say that the situation is the same if it is Iraq military or US military that is the military force present.

How do you suppose the presense of American soldiers for 5 more years is going to change anything? Will the American soldiers presense make it so that in 5 years, the sunnis want to be ruled by the shiites? (Are those the actual English terms for their lines of faith? Really different from Danish ones)

If you think 5 years of American soliders presense will change that, how do you suppose that their presense will have the influence to change it which their own military will not be able to do?

Who are those political and journalistic experts you are refering to, as I have seen no indications anywhere from any experts (Journalistic or Political) which says that the war will be won soon. I actually heard a lot of experts say the excat opposit, that staying there will only lead to more riots, more violence and make it easier for terrorist groups to recruit members into their ranks, and the last part, is a fact. While the riots and violence might not decrease by US military forces leaving, according to your arguement, hopefully you won't be so blindsighted as to dispute that the grounds for hatred against western influence will be lessened and hence terroristgroups will have a harder time recruiting, if the US military forces leaves?

How come the violence between the Sunnis and Shiites was less before the US military forces arrived into the country, yet you claim them leaving won't change a thing?
Do you think that the people of Iraq are only able to live in dictatorships without slaughtering each other?
Do you think the lack of Saddam Hussein specificly is causing the commotion that makes the violence between the ethnic groups spike like it has since the war?
Or is it the lack of influence, meaning 1 ethnic group feeling oppressed and unheard, in which case it might be worth asking if the right solution rather than occupation wouldn't be splitting the country into 2 groups so each group could lead their own government (which then might war each other, or might not, but that can be influenced by politics more easily than civil-war)

If americans win the war the sunnis/insurgents in general wont be asked whether they want to live in a democracy.

Are you telling me that the Iraqi defense forces are stronger than the US military? Ofcourse the US army will be more efficient in a war. And the Iraqi defence forces are there no matter if the americans are there or not.

The general opinion in the media right now is that Al Qaeda is loosing support and Iraq is getting better by the day. Just look at the link i gave earlier. Im quite sure there was something about Al Qaedas popularity there aswell.

There was no violence in Iraq before the US troops because of Saddam. It was the exact same thing in Jugoslavia. When Tito ruled the factions lived in peace but when he died all hell broke loose.

Im sure Iraqis can live in a democracy but right now someone has to force them to it.

As far as i know the population in Iraq is so mixed up that dividing the country is probably going to be a painfull process but i really dont know about this so i wont comment on it.

It seems to me that we keep arguing about the same old question can the war be won. I say yes and you say no. Look at the link i gave.