US election 2008

[Ezteq]

He's half-caste so that's a wee bit irrelevant.

lol dont you watch telly? anyone whos got like a drop of 250 year old black blood in them can call themselves black n proud uh huh yeah!

theyre still trying to prove whether or not jacksons black or white..the whites say he's black the blacks say uh huh we dont want him, he's white!

 

[Gorbachioo]

For chronic:

Iraq looks a lot different a year later - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com



And its nbc, not fox!

Like i said i think americans have a moral obligation to finish it now that it is very much possible.

 

[Chronictank]

For chronic:

Iraq looks a lot different a year later - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com



And its nbc, not fox!

Like i said i think americans have a moral obligation to finish it now that it is very much possible.

This may be true but responding to the follow-on point from yourself

Violence in Iraq has decreased and the Iraq security forces are gaining more numbers all the time. According to what i've read from several sources the situation is looking good in Iraq right now. The reason why Afghanistan hasnt been sorted out yet is that all troops are in Iraq.

I responded

People are pulling out of Iraq anyway, so he will achieve nothing that will not be done anyway
What he will do is continue Bush's legacy of causing more trouble in the middle East, and ultimately the world
The damage may be done, but the problem hasn't been well and truley fu**** to the extent it cannot be fixed.
I truely believe if he gets into power he will be the instigator of chaos with his attitude of strong arming anyone who doesn't follow the foreign policy he wants.

You say he will benefit, but i fail to see how. The difference between McCain and Obama is that Obama actually has an exit strategy, McCain has none he is just going to employ the same policies as Bush, which seems to be stay there indefinitely as they keep pushing their deadline forward and forward.

Nice link btw, it was a reasonable account from the yank POV of a timeline.

 

[Gorbachioo]

But if he has no intentions of leaving iraq before the war is over then why does he need an exit strategy? I mean you dont really need much of a strategy to leave a peaceful country now do you? You just leave.. ;C


Or did i misunderstand your point? -,-

 

[old.Tohtori]

But if he has no intentions of leaving iraq before the war is over then why does he need an exit strategy? I mean you dont really need much of a strategy to leave a peaceful country now do you? You just leave.. ;C


Or did i misunderstand your point? -,-

The war never started really, but, even if you count it as a war, then it's been over a long while.

Now they just hang about and the exit strategy is concerning how to set up iraq so that they don't need outside help.

As in goverment etc.

Atleast that's what i think Chronictank meant by exit strategy.

 

[Chronictank]

But if he has no intentions of leaving iraq before the war is over then why does he need an exit strategy? I mean you dont really need much of a strategy to leave a peaceful country now do you? You just leave.. ;C


Or did i misunderstand your point? -,-

As seel said, Obama has no intention of leaving without fixing things first from what he has said, however he has a plan for giving power to the Iraqi's and puling out.
You say it as if it is going to be an overnight thing before the job is finished when this is not the case, however unlike McCain they at least have a stratergy to have a phased withdrawal slowly giving power back to the Iraqi police.
The war has officially been over for years

 

[Gorbachioo]

As seel said, Obama has no intention of leaving without fixing things first from what he has said, however he has a plan for giving power to the Iraqi's and puling out.
You say it as if it is going to be an overnight thing before the job is finished when this is not the case, however unlike McCain they at least have a stratergy to have a phased withdrawal slowly giving power back to the Iraqi police.

And what if Obama fails to fix things. Does he still leave? Cos if not, then i dont really see any difference between Obama and Bush.. I mean thats exactly what Bush is trying to do isnt it?


Also, could you explain the exit strategy in a nut shell im bad with long texts in english ;>

 

[Chronictank]

And what if Obama fails to fix things. Does he still leave? Cos if not, then i dont really see any difference between Obama and Bush.. I mean thats exactly what Bush is trying to do isnt it?

Essentially yes, however Bush is likely to go take honey the Bee's nest that is Iran and then stick his middle finger up at them for getting pissed off.
Obama is the other end of the spectrum in the sense that he is likely to ask for it instead

However the problem with the Bush administration is their sheer short sightedness, they dont seem to have the ability to sort long term problems out, instead they just put a bandage on it and hope it heals itself.

Also, could you explain the exit strategy in a nut shell im bad with long texts in english ;>

Will dig that up for you when i get some time a bit snowed under at work today

 

[Iceforge]

Basicly, if I got Obama's strategy for exiting Iraq right, it is pulling out all "military" forces over 3 months and only leaving American military there in the form of advisors and trainers (if I am correct, that is)

Also, a major thing the makes Obama very great in my eyes, is that he reject taking money from lobbyists, and want to distance from lobbyists influencing the government and it's decisions and he is also against the patriot act, as he believes in the US constitution and he wants to close down Guantanamo.

 

[Hawkwind]

Obama Bin Laden for Pres. First mission declare civil war on rednecks!

 

[Gorbachioo]

Basicly, if I got Obama's strategy for exiting Iraq right, it is pulling out all "military" forces over 3 months and only leaving American military there in the form of advisors and trainers (if I am correct, that is)

Also, a major thing the makes Obama very great in my eyes, is that he reject taking money from lobbyists, and want to distance from lobbyists influencing the government and it's decisions and he is also against the patriot act, as he believes in the US constitution and he wants to close down Guantanamo.

I really dont see why that is so great. If that were to happen now it would cause a civil war and genocide. Ofcourse with the way things are going right now it might be that thats what will happen by the time of the election anyway. But then, thats all because of Mr. Bush ;>


George Bush once said that history will look at him differently. And to be honest, i think that might just be the case.. I truly do think that in 30 years he will be celebrated as the man who free'd the middle east and made 2 more democracies. Bit ironic isnt it.. xd (And no, im in no way a Bush fan)

I mean, had vietnam been succesfull Nixon would probably be considered a great american hero. Do you see anyone critisizing americans for Korea?

 

[Iceforge]

The point and fact at the moment (Which is what concerns me, not how people will look at it in 30 years) is that the presence of a foreign opression force (U.S. Military) in Iraq is NOT decreasing the violence happening there and it is increasing tensions with the surrounding hostile nations, one of which (Iran) has a nuclear program.

The entire war on Iraq as part of the war on Terrorism has failed completely, as it has until now only provided the terrorists with a new provinse to harvest young suicide bombers from.

Pulling out and giving the power back to the people of Iraq will force them to find a solution and the aid of advisors and trainers will help the government (local) in Iraq to lead safely and develop their own military for protection and upholding the laws of the country in a better way than any foreign force can.

 

[Gorbachioo]

The point and fact at the moment (Which is what concerns me, not how people will look at it in 30 years) is that the presence of a foreign opression force (U.S. Military) in Iraq is NOT decreasing the violence happening there and it is increasing tensions with the surrounding hostile nations, one of which (Iran) has a nuclear program.

The entire war on Iraq as part of the war on Terrorism has failed completely, as it has until now only provided the terrorists with a new provinse to harvest young suicide bombers from.

Pulling out and giving the power back to the people of Iraq will force them to find a solution and the aid of advisors and trainers will help the government (local) in Iraq to lead safely and develop their own military for protection and upholding the laws of the country in a better way than any foreign force can.

No.

Look at the link i gave you. Violence is decreasing in Iraq. I believe that Iran might be bold enough to try to get that nuke but it wont. Israel or America will not allow that.


Failed completely? Well that depends. As i said there are 2 new democracies in the middle east and Al-Qaeda is loosing support in both of these countries. That is the case in Pakistan aswell. Iran stands pretty much alone against the west and i believe it will seek a peaceful solution. America chose its path in this and its too late to change now.


Leaving Iraq now will only result in a civil war and genocide. Just look at what happened to Jugoslavia. When Tito died everyone started killing eachother and didnt stop until the west got involved. Iraq and Jugoslavia are very much alike and one could argue that the same thing would have happened in Iraq if Saddam had died for natural reasons. Or not, but it sure as hell wouldnt be a democracy.

 

[Chronictank]

Failed completely? Well that depends. As i said there are 2 new democracies in the middle east and Al-Qaeda is loosing support in both of these countries. That is the case in Pakistan aswell. Iran stands pretty much alone against the west and i believe it will seek a peaceful solution. America chose its path in this and its too late to change now.

Pakistan never supported Al-Qaeda, it just refused to let the American's have miliary personnel in the country for a long time
The country has always been a democracy, Musharaf declared a state of emergency when he believed civil order was at risk (same as Bush) for a short spell

 

[Jupiter]

Democrate = Environment issues, proper foreign policy, out ward economy (hence growth)
Republican = Extreme Capitalism, environmental exploitation, warmongering, inward spending

gimme a democrate anyday of the week please

 

[Gorbachioo]

Pakistan never supported Al-Qaeda, it just refused to let the American's have miliary personnel in the country for a long time
The country has always been a democracy, Musharaf declared a state of emergency when he believed civil order was at risk (same as Bush) for a short spell

I didnt mean the actual Pakistani regime but rather the people in Pakistan. A couple of years back almost 50% of pakistanis supported Al Qaeda but now the numbers have dropped significantly.

And jupiter: I think you just proved that democracy doesnt work.

 

[Jupiter]

I didnt mean the actual Pakistani regime but rather the people in Pakistan. A couple of years back almost 50% of pakistanis supported Al Qaeda but now the numbers have dropped significantly.

Propaganda

And jupiter: I think you just proved that democracy doesnt work.

Orly and how u figure that? I can only speak about the US presidents of my generation. Was/Is the World a safer place under Carter & Clinton compared to Reagan, Bush 1 & 2. And dont get me started about the state of the planet

 

[Himse]

I saw somebody write about Hillary using "her being the first female president to get into power"

you could say the same for Obama being the first black president.

Personally i think Obama would be more legit & a better president, Hillary seems a bit, mm, sneaky to me. lol

 

[old.Tohtori]

I saw somebody write about Hillary using "her being the first female president to get into power"

you could say the same for Obama being the first black president.

Personally i think Obama would be more legit & a better president, Hillary seems a bit, mm, sneaky to me. lol

Quite basic politics i say.

Woman side says "i am woman make me first president female thingy!"

Ok, get votes.

Other side sayes "you is using womanhood to get votes!"

Ok, woman loose votes.

Other side says "I is black, make me first president black thingy!"

Ok, get votes.

Woman side says...nothing *grin*

 

[Levin]

Quite basic politics i say.

Woman side says "i am woman make me first president female thingy!"

Ok, get votes.

Other side sayes "you is using womanhood to get votes!"

Ok, woman loose votes.

Other side says "I is black, make me first president black thingy!"

Ok, get votes.

Woman side says...nothing *grin*

Republican says "You both speak like internet troglodytes!"

Ok, republican wins.

 

[Huntingtons]

Huntingtons says "vote me or i will rape your children"

Huntingtons' wins. claims dicatorship and nukes world. all problems solved both enviromental and terrorwise!

 

[Sharma]

And that is why you're not allowed to have a seat of power in any form.

 

[Iceforge]

I saw somebody write about Hillary using "her being the first female president to get into power"

you could say the same for Obama being the first black president.

Personally i think Obama would be more legit & a better president, Hillary seems a bit, mm, sneaky to me. lol

OMG! Okay, let me put this straight ONCE again!

Clinton has HERSELF said "I will be the first female president, females should vote for me" (not excat quote) i.e. SHE has HERSELF told people to vote for her BECAUSE then she will be the first female president

Obama has NEVER himself said "I will be the first black president, black people should vote for me" i.e. HE has never HIMSELF nor has ANYONE in his campaign staff used his skin colour as a tool to get people to vote for him.

A big difference.

What random people on the street say is useless as there will always be women who vote for Clinton due to the gender and people who vote for Obama due to the skin colour, the question is which one of them has actively used it in their campaign as a REASON to vote for them.

Some people here and on other forums keep repeating the same nonsense about them being equally bad about this, but Obama has never used it as a tool or a reason, while Clinton have.

And again, why do people keep refering to Clinton by firstname? it is just rude when refering to the others by Lastname.

 

[Iceforge]

Also, about the violence declining, yeah, it is true the violence in Iraq has declined over, I think, the last 6 months or so, but using that as an arguement for the occupation working is silly. Go occupy, see violence spike to 500-1000% more than normal, the decline by 10% and yell victory, WHAT THE FUCK? It is still more than before? And why do you attribute it to the occupying force? The democratic government has been established and they will not be left without any defense to the government or let the democratic elected government be overthrown, they are just going to let it work on it's own, instead of occupying and actually deciding everything instead of the government.

You could have used the same arguement about the nazi occupation, I am quite sure the violence between people in Denmark during the 5year occupation was lower than normal, that doesn't quite mean that the occupation made life more peacefull or better.

 

[Gorbachioo]

Also, about the violence declining, yeah, it is true the violence in Iraq has declined over, I think, the last 6 months or so, but using that as an arguement for the occupation working is silly. Go occupy, see violence spike to 500-1000% more than normal, the decline by 10% and yell victory, WHAT THE FUCK? It is still more than before? And why do you attribute it to the occupying force? The democratic government has been established and they will not be left without any defense to the government or let the democratic elected government be overthrown, they are just going to let it work on it's own, instead of occupying and actually deciding everything instead of the government.

You could have used the same arguement about the nazi occupation, I am quite sure the violence between people in Denmark during the 5year occupation was lower than normal, that doesn't quite mean that the occupation made life more peacefull or better.

Theres no doubt that alot of progress has happened in Iraq. The violence IS decreasing now and theres no reason to assume that it wont keep doing so in the future. I never said that invading Iraq was a good idea. I said that leaving now is a bad idea. The damage is already done, the only thing left is the healing.

 

[Ezteq]

Democrate = Environment issues, proper foreign policy, out ward economy (hence growth)
Republican = Extreme Capitalism, environmental exploitation, warmongering, inward spending

gimme a democrate anyday of the week please

lol theres a sweeping statement. Its a bit like here in the UK we have the conservatives (republicans) and labour (democrats), however i wouldnt dream of putting together a statement like that because tbh theyre all shit.

they all make promises and dont keep them (and imo this makes labour/democrats worse because they make all these warm fluffy promises and dont do anything about it, at least with conservatives/republicans you know your getting something spikey.

I really dont think there is a Good Party and a Bad Party, like i said to me they all seem to be the same and any vote i make will be based on the lesser of two evils, and in some cases theyve both seemed so damned bad and unviable i cant bring myself to vote for any of them.

 

[kivik]

Democrate = Environment issues, proper foreign policy, out ward economy (hence growth)
Republican = Extreme Capitalism, environmental exploitation, warmongering, inward spending

gimme a democrate anyday of the week please

Amen brotha!

 

[Iceforge]

Theres no doubt that alot of progress has happened in Iraq. The violence IS decreasing now and theres no reason to assume that it wont keep doing so in the future. I never said that invading Iraq was a good idea. I said that leaving now is a bad idea. The damage is already done, the only thing left is the healing.

I think the violence will decrease even more rapidly if they are allowed to work it out for themselves instead of seeing an foreign occupying force controlling everything for them.
And I see no reason for violence to escalate at all due to pulling out military force, as most of the violence is an expression of the rage of being occupied.
You have democrates saying they want to pull out, like Obama and Clinton, where of Obama is the one with a detailed plan on how to do so, or you got McCain who says they might have to stay there for 100 years, yes, that is correct, 100 years he says.

Now, which do you really think is the most wise?

 

[Gorbachioo]

I think the violence will decrease even more rapidly if they are allowed to work it out for themselves instead of seeing an foreign occupying force controlling everything for them.
And I see no reason for violence to escalate at all due to pulling out military force, as most of the violence is an expression of the rage of being occupied.
You have democrates saying they want to pull out, like Obama and Clinton, where of Obama is the one with a detailed plan on how to do so, or you got McCain who says they might have to stay there for 100 years, yes, that is correct, 100 years he says.

Now, which do you really think is the most wise?

If americans pull out there will be a civil war and most likely a genocide. Theres really no disagreement on that. And what will there be then? A pointless war, followed by a civil war resulting in a religious dictatorship. Iraqis are not united against americans, theres just as much hate between the different factions as there is towards americans. My personal opinion is that the democrats are extremely spineless for doing this because they know what will happen if they do what they promise.

 

[Iceforge]

If americans pull out there will be a civil war and most likely a genocide. Theres really no disagreement on that. And what will there be then? A pointless war, followed by a civil war resulting in a religious dictatorship. Iraqis are not united against americans, theres just as much hate between the different factions as there is towards americans. My personal opinion is that the democrats are extremely spineless for doing this because they know what will happen if they do what they promise.

Seems pointless to argue with you, as you take you opinion and keep stating it like it is facts

"there really no disagreement on that" WHAT? I just disagreed with you, but oh no, lets belittle anyone who disagrees opinion and say it doesn't count. Really nice way to argue.

And as said, they want to pull out the american military troops, but will still aid with advisors and stuff, which should be enough to assure peace. You act like you think they are just going to pull everybody out, leaving nothing and saying "good luck" and then turn their back on the entire thing and ignore genocide (if it should happen), I mean, WTF?
That is not what they are saying and if you think thats what they want to do, then you, my friend, are ignorant.

And answer me honestly: Do you think american military troopers being present there creates MORE or LESS conflicts than if the Iraqis found their own countrymen keeping order instead?