United States Corrupt Twattery

Gwadien

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I saw a vid earlier of a teacher showing some journalists the kit she's got for the event of a school shooting.

Imagine visiting a school because your kid might go there and the teacher showing you that shit. Wow.
 

Tom

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I like to think the kit I'd get would be the letter of resignation.
 

Gwadien

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I like to think the kit I'd get would be the letter of resignation.
True.

And I guess that's why there isn't any action in the US, I'd like to think teachers in the UK would go on strike over it.
 

Wij

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The point I was very clearly making is that - even though he wasn't able to legally get hold of a gun, he still got hold of a gun.

So all you people saying "change teh law! it'll stop shootings as people won't be able to get hold of guns" - well, there you go. Same week.
Incorrect. He waited until he was legally allowed to buy the rifle. The day after his 18th birthday. He did the shooting a week later. He literally waited until it was legal.

 

Scouse

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Incorrect.
Not incorrect. I was responding to this - and quoted this:
Mr Hazelett said it is not yet clear how Butler obtained the weapon - which he was not legally allowed to carry as a convicted felon.
Which shows that even if you're a convicted felon and not legally able to buy weapons it's not actually an impediment to getting weapons. - if you want a gun in the US, you can get one.

The fact that your boy bought one doesn't really matter. I stand by my opinion that making it illegal to buy weapons isn't going to help. If you have pre-meditated an act of mass murder in the US, then not being able to legally buy firearms isn't going to impede your plan.

Here's something to think about: In the UK it's different. We haven't got guns all over the shop. I support our restrictive gun ownership laws in the UK. I think they're effective in stopping average joe twat from getting hold of guns to shoot people up with. But I think it's a waste of time trying to retro-fit UK gun ownership laws to the US - because guns are so ubiquitous and changing the law isn't going to change that.

Change the conditions that make predominantly young men go on rampages. That's what's needed. But for some reason - we refuse to countenance reforms to create a fairer society. Instead, we seem to latch on to simple, meaningless "fixes".
 

DaGaffer

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Not incorrect. I was responding to this - and quoted this:

Which shows that even if you're a convicted felon and not legally able to buy weapons it's not actually an impediment to getting weapons. - if you want a gun in the US, you can get one.

The fact that your boy bought one doesn't really matter. I stand by my opinion that making it illegal to buy weapons isn't going to help. If you have pre-meditated an act of mass murder in the US, then not being able to legally buy firearms isn't going to impede your plan.

Here's something to think about: In the UK it's different. We haven't got guns all over the shop. I support our restrictive gun ownership laws in the UK. I think they're effective in stopping average joe twat from getting hold of guns to shoot people up with. But I think it's a waste of time trying to retro-fit UK gun ownership laws to the US - because guns are so ubiquitous and changing the law isn't going to change that.

Change the conditions that make predominantly young men go on rampages. That's what's needed. But for some reason - we refuse to countenance reforms to create a fairer society. Instead, we seem to latch on to simple, meaningless "fixes".
"Scouse in Americans Can't Do Two Things At Once Claim Shock. Film At 11"
 

Aoami

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American attitudes towards firearms need changing. Would changing gun laws do that? Possibly not, but of course it is worth trying it. Why wouldn't it be?
 

Scouse

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Until someone tells me how it would work, nope. It's just people screaming "do something".
 

DaGaffer

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I'm yet to see any actual solid reasons other than just "because it'll work".

Shrug. We disagree.
Fuck's sake. Its a process. You won't change a culture without even starting on the journey.
 

Aoami

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Until someone tells me how it would work, nope. It's just people screaming "do something".
There are hundreds of mass shootings per year in the USA, so many that the vast majority don't even make the news over here. Being shot is now the leading cause of death for people aged 1-19 in the USA.

Surely a large part of this is that more or less anyone over the age of 18 can walk into a shop and buy an assault rifle. That is insane. Obviously this should be stopped entirely, but America. However, even just making it harder to buy weapons is going to be a deterrent, and if it stops one mass shooting then surely that is better than doing fuck all? Attitudes towards guns need changing, which is not going to happen overnight.
 

Scouse

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Fuck's sake. Its a process. You won't change a culture without even starting on the journey.
OK - implicit in that is an admission that at best it won't make any meaningful difference for many years.

Leaving aside the arguments about desirability and potential efficacy - we come back to my point in the first place. If we are willing to embark on a multi-generational cultural change in the US for guns alone - why aren't we willing to embark on a multigenerational change to make the world we live in a better and fairer place?

Ultimately, that is the root cause of the issue. So why the effort for guns alone, when there's much bigger society-wide prizes to win?
 

Scouse

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You have proof for this?
More proof than you've got that "banning buying guns" will make any sort of difference - you just say "it will" but don't have an argument to back it up.

I posted a link from one of the formost experts who said mass shootings, especially in adults, are linked strongly to "financial distress".
The big three mental and societal issues being - psychopathic personality disorder, people suffering psychosis or schizotypal disorders and people who've suffered horrendous trauma and abuse.

You think happy, well adjusted people do this do you @Wij? - so how about changing society so people with mental disorders get proper treatment and care, people who suffer trauma and abuse are helped and catered for? - We know trauma and abuse is linked to financial distress - so why not restructure our society so financial struggle is lessened - instead of having single individuals worth more than whole countries and huge swathes of the population living below the breadline?

It's a fucking no-brainer Wij.

So. Where's your proof? Considering mass shooters who legally can't buy guns still commit mass shootings. (Cute fact: they're under financial distress and suffer mental disorders)
 

Scouse

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@Scouse - thoughts?
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The very definition of upsetting and oppressive.

I for one think we should legislate against free protest in specific circumstances. And whilst we're at it, we can potentially look for other places where free protest could be curtailed because the worst thing ever is to be upset that other people feel differently from you.

Bit weird that you put this in the US corrupt twattery thread tho eh?
 

Aoami

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More proof than you've got that "banning buying guns" will make any sort of difference - you just say "it will" but don't have an argument to back it up.

I posted a link from one of the formost experts who said mass shootings, especially in adults, are linked strongly to "financial distress".
The big three mental and societal issues being - psychopathic personality disorder, people suffering psychosis or schizotypal disorders and people who've suffered horrendous trauma and abuse.

You think happy, well adjusted people do this do you @Wij? - so how about changing society so people with mental disorders get proper treatment and care, people who suffer trauma and abuse are helped and catered for? - We know trauma and abuse is linked to financial distress - so why not restructure our society so financial struggle is lessened - instead of having single individuals worth more than whole countries and huge swathes of the population living below the breadline?

It's a fucking no-brainer Wij.

So. Where's your proof? Considering mass shooters who legally can't buy guns still commit mass shootings. (Cute fact: they're under financial distress and suffer mental disorders)
It's almost as if we have the same issue in this country but we don't have hundreds of mass shootings because we have sane gun control laws
 

DaGaffer

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OK - implicit in that is an admission that at best it won't make any meaningful difference for many years.

Leaving aside the arguments about desirability and potential efficacy - we come back to my point in the first place. If we are willing to embark on a multi-generational cultural change in the US for guns alone - why aren't we willing to embark on a multigenerational change to make the world we live in a better and fairer place?

Ultimately, that is the root cause of the issue. So why the effort for guns alone, when there's much bigger society-wide prizes to win?
Yes of course it will be multi-generational, because it was multi-generational to get to the current shitshow in the first place! "Guns for personal protection" is the result of a sustained marketing campaign that's been going on since the late 70s, but it was not inevitable; gun ownership was in steady decline all through the 20th century until the likes of Wayne LaPierre cottoned on to "fear marketing" and changed the whole narrative. The gun crisis in the US was engineered, and it will take similar efforts to fix it. But you have to start somewhere.

You can talk making society better all you want, but you would still have to address America's dysfunctional, and wholly irrational approach to guns anyway.
 

Scouse

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It's almost as if we have the same issue in this country but we don't have hundreds of mass shootings because we have sane gun control laws
It's almost as if you can't read the thread where this very point has been addressed.
 

Scouse

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Yes of course it will be multi-generational
No problems with this or anything you said in this paragraph. We agree.

You can talk making society better all you want, but you would still have to address America's dysfunctional, and wholly irrational approach to guns anyway.
If we're doing the whole lot then I'm in. If we're only doing the gun thing, and not doing the rest of it- then I'm out. If the future is more of the same with zero effort to make transformative change that affects everyone's lives for the better - then I don't care. Arm the kids, we're all fucked anyway...
 

Scouse

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You didn't address it. You just said you think it's pointless, with no evidence.
I made an argument, including a reason why I support Britain's current legal stance. You've not made an argument, never mind provided any evidence, so...
 

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