United States Corrupt Twattery

Scouse

Scouse

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Wij said:
Wtf?


View: https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1482550133166329857
Click to expand...

Donald Trump taking advantage of this:

www.wsj.com

Opinion | New York’s Race-Based Preferential Covid Treatments

New guidelines say whites may not be eligible for antibodies and antivirals, while nonwhites are.
www.wsj.com www.wsj.com

looks like a policy that explicitly mentions race - not socio economic status - as a qualifying factor.

He's using it for his own means, of course, but on the face of it he's not wrong. And Democratic policymakers should know and be better.
 
Wij

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Scouse said:
Donald Trump taking advantage of this:

www.wsj.com

Opinion | New York’s Race-Based Preferential Covid Treatments

New guidelines say whites may not be eligible for antibodies and antivirals, while nonwhites are.
www.wsj.com www.wsj.com

looks like a policy that explicitly mentions race - not socio economic status - as a qualifying factor.

He's using it for his own means, of course, but on the face of it he's not wrong. And Democratic policymakers should know and be better.
Click to expand...
It mentions race for very specific treatments that are in short supply. It mentions it as a factor because black people specifically are more likely to get covid worse than white ones.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Trump fact-checked for claiming white people are denied COVID vaccines

'The left is now rationing lifesaving therapeutics based on race, discriminating against and denigrating... white people to determine who lives and who dies', Trump declared at his first rally of 2022.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk

It doesn't bar white people or put them to the back of the queue and blaming it on democrats is completely ridiculous when similar guidance is in place in very-much-not-democrat Utah.

It's called race-baiting.
 
Scouse

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Firstly Wij:

Wij said:
It's called race-baiting.
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Yes. Yes it is.

But:

Wij said:
black people specifically are more likely to get covid worse than white ones
Click to expand...
...because of socio-economic status and cultural issues that mean they're less likely ro get vaccinated.

However, the policy is based on colour of skin - not economic status. So is de-facto racist.

That's why Trump is using it to his nefarious ends. It's a racist policy run by dems in NY.

The fact that utah is equally as dumb is by-the-by - Trump already lands his punch.


I've a further, additional, argument to make: colour-of-skin policies are incredibly dangerous. If black people are more likely to carry covid because of the colour of their skin (which is what colour of skin policies say) - then you lend weight to the arguments of racists who would wish to segregate and exclude people based on their colour of skin.

Colour of skin policies legitimise racist arguments.
 
Scouse

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Deebs said:
oooh


View: https://twitter.com/NewYorkStateAG/status/1483652354398429184
Click to expand...


"No one in this country can pick and choose if and how the law applies to them"

Well, considering laws have been written by the rich, for the rich, and they pretty much own the legal resources to defend themselves I'd say whilst they can't pick and choose they can certainly reduce their exposure.

Even if they find trumps organisation is corrupt, it's a long way from laying a glove on trump.
 
Wij

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Scouse said:
Firstly Wij:


Yes. Yes it is.

But:


...because of socio-economic status and cultural issues that mean they're less likely ro get vaccinated.

However, the policy is based on colour of skin - not economic status. So is de-facto racist.

That's why Trump is using it to his nefarious ends. It's a racist policy run by dems in NY.

The fact that utah is equally as dumb is by-the-by - Trump already lands his punch.


I've a further, additional, argument to make: colour-of-skin policies are incredibly dangerous. If black people are more likely to carry covid because of the colour of their skin (which is what colour of skin policies say) - then you lend weight to the arguments of racists who would wish to segregate and exclude people based on their colour of skin.

Colour of skin policies legitimise racist arguments.
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Missing the point. Data before vaccination was even a thing found that black people were more likely to get covid more seriously.
 
Scouse

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Wij said:
Missing the point. Data before vaccination was even a thing found that black people were more likely to get covid more seriously.
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Because they are black,? or because of cultural and socioeconomic status / living in HMOs, crowded housing etc?

I'm not missing the point at all @Wij. Not for a second.
 
Scouse

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Raven said:
There are a couple of conditions that are predominantly found more in certain ethnic groups. The conditions aren't racist, btw.
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Completely aware of stuff like sickle cell etc. But not seen a single thing on covid other than socioeconomic status and cultural sillyness.
 
Scouse

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Wij said:
Well now you have.
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Comorbidity. If you have sickle cell disease you should be a priority. And they already will have - because they'll have been getting treated for it for years.

NOT the same as simply having "black skin".

Your hatred of Trump is blinding you to actual racism. If people are serious about taking Trump on and negating his race-baiting then they *have* to be squeaky clean - because any chink in the armour gives him cards to play that aren't just total bullshit.
 
Wij

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Scouse said:
Comorbidity. If you have sickle cell disease you should be a priority. And they already will have - because they'll have been getting treated for it for years.

NOT the same as simply having "black skin".

Your hatred of Trump is blinding you to actual racism. If people are serious about taking Trump on and negating his race-baiting then they *have* to be squeaky clean - because any chink in the armour gives him cards to play that aren't just total bullshit.
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And there are lots of studies showing that black people, native Americans, Pacific Islanders etc are more likely die from covid and the data is not yet conclusive enough to be able to show that this is entirely to do with co-morbidities, age, number of people per household or anything else. It's just not conclusive yet. In the absence of that and an individualised questionnaire for all other confounding factors being given to people in respiratory distress it is surely ok to accept the guidance that maybe ethnic group should be something to consider clinically.

I thought we'd kind of got past the point where we thought that never mentioning race and pretending it doesn't exist was the best way to racial equality. "I don't even see black or white!", says portly, balding Uncle Tony, whilst putting the world to rights.

You don't scream about sexism in society when you state that being a woman is a risk factor for breast cancer? Being a woman just makes it more likely. Fact. As far as doctors know, being black might also be a risk factor in the severity of covid. If it turns out not to be then fine but it's not racist to consider it until it has been proven not to be.
 
Wij

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Scouse said:
Even if they find trumps organisation is corrupt, it's a long way from laying a glove on trump.
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Given how the Trump Org is run I’d say it’s not a long way at all. He can hardly claim to be at arms length with no operational control or knowledge.
 
Scouse

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When reading this Wij, remember - I'm playing devils advocate (somewhat) and on your side:

Wij said:
And there are lots of studies showing that black people, native Americans, Pacific Islanders etc are more likely die from covid and the data is not yet conclusive enough to be able to show that this is entirely to do with co-morbidities, age, number of people per household or anything else. It's just not conclusive yet
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That's quite a bold statement @Wij. Have you come to this conclusion yourself or is there expert opinion that says this?

Absolutely everything I've read, absolutley everything, has talked about structural issues - economic, cultrual, structural racism against black people - both conscious and unconscious - etc. etc. etc. (eg) - but I've not seen a single thing that shows a genetic predisposition.

Even if I accept your argument (and I'm not) - then as you say explicitly say above - "the data is just not conclusive yet" - so that would have to include the genetic basis for increased susceptibility for covid morbidity. You can't have it both ways.


Remember - I'm on your side. I absolutely see that Trump is race-bating. And he weaponises where he sees weaknesses. They don't have to be even nailed-on - they only have to "smell" like weaknesses and it makes his weapons more powerful.

If we're serious about undermining Trump then we cannot use un-evidenced supposition to prioritise medical treatments based on the colour of people's skin. Especially when there are plenty of other things we can point at to bring out a fair outcome: "Oh! You're in the lowest 25% income base? Great! - we'll prioritise these treatments - oh, you happen to be black do you? Well, who knew?!"


No matter what flips and twists you do, the NY policy is racist. Trump is using that. It doesn't need to be - there are policy amendments that can be made where you can't even un-reasonably levy a "race" argument. <<< We should make those policy changes.
 
Wij

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Scouse said:
Even if I accept your argument (and I'm not) - then as you say explicitly say above - "the data is just not conclusive yet" - so that would have to include the genetic basis for increased susceptibility for covid morbidity. You can't have it both ways.
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I'm absolutely not trying to have it both ways. If black people are more susceptible to serious covid than white ones once other factors have been controlled out then it must have a genetic basis. The fact that black and white people have different distributions of genes is not at all controversial or racist. If they didn't we would all look the same. Black people are more susceptible (and for other diseases less so) to other diseases. Just like taking people's sex into account in a clinical situation is not controversial.

Scouse said:
If we're serious about undermining Trump then we cannot use un-evidenced supposition to prioritise medical treatments based on the colour of people's skin. Especially when there are plenty of other things we can point at to bring out a fair outcome: "Oh! You're in the lowest 25% income base? Great! - we'll prioritise these treatments - oh, you happen to be black do you? Well, who knew?!"
Click to expand...
We absolutely have evidence showing that black people are more likely to die from Covid. What we don't have is enough data and double-blind experiments etc to prove that this is not about the genetic differences between races. Therefore 'un-evidenced' is completely misleading. These are clinical decisions. It's not a court of law. Until it's proven exactly what the mechanism is then it is perfectly acceptable to consider it. Mentioning race is not racist.
 
Scouse

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Wij said:
I'm absolutely not trying to have it both ways. If black people are more susceptible to serious covid than white ones once other factors have been controlled out then it must have a genetic basis
Click to expand...
By your own admission, there's no strong evidence for this. So policies based on skin colour alone are unacceptable.

Wij said:
We absolutely have evidence showing that black people are more likely to die from Covid.
Click to expand...
Yes, and a lot of strong evidence showing socio-economic status, structural racism leads to worse outcome for a whole range of diseases for black people, not just covid. So making a policy around socio-economic status is certainly reasonable.

What we don't have evidence for is a genetic basis for these decisions around covid. So:

Wij said:
Mentioning race is not racist.
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Agree. 100%. But in the absence of evidence - excluding a set of people from a medical intervention based on their skin colour alone IS.


I've already given you the solution to this dilemma. Why are you trying to keep the argument alive? The policy should be changed to target people from a socio-economic realm. Not race. We've no good evidential basis to support race-based targetting. But we've lots of very good evidence in other areas.

Use the evidence we have, not the evidence we don't have. It's a win win - we target based on evidence, we undermine Trumps racism argument. Don't see the problem?
 
Wij

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Because they have no proof that it is based on socio-economic status. That's an assumption. E.g: DEFINE_ME

We can't base public health guidance on how bad-faith actors are going to frame them. They'll always find a way to distort things and the more you twist things to accommodate their games the more they will see it works.

Also: "excluding a set of people from a medical intervention based on their skin colour alone IS."

This absolutely is not what is happening. They are already winning by convincing you that it is just by asserting it and saying 'racism'.
 
Tom

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All those types of posts can be condensed down to "I don't understand this therefore the fault must lie elsewhere".
 
Wij

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Raven said:
www.bbc.co.uk

Texas butterfly centre closes after QAnon threats

The National Butterfly Center in Texas was a major opponent of the US-Mexico border wall.
www.bbc.co.uk

The country is barking mad, I don't even know how you go about fixing such large group delusion.
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Turn off the internet but then people would just go back to religions for their fix of ‘I’m living in a sci-fi fantasy space opera’.
 
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