To vegetarians

[Ekydus]

In that case is having a pet animal cruelty aswell? Afterall it isn't natural for them to be pampered and follow a human alpha male or swim around in a little space all day is it?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Originally posted by driwen
So unless a balanced vegetarian diet is better than a balanced meal diet, you havent proven that much.

Final proof of the question: "Do people read what Teh Seel writes"

Answer...chichichiching...no

 

[Annouk]

I agree that a balanced diet with meat in it can also be healthy but very few ppl manage that.

And as for pets most animals we keep in the home have been bred over hundreds of years to be tame and could not survive in the wild now. Animals which are taken out of the wild now to be kept as a pet tho is wrong as like u say, it is not natural for them.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Originally posted by Annouk
I agree that a balanced diet with meat in it can also be healthy but very few ppl manage that.

And as for pets most animals we keep in the home have been bred over hundreds of years to be tame and could not survive in the wild now. Animals which are taken out of the wild now to be kept as a pet tho is wrong as like u say, it is not natural for them.

And i could say not many vegetarians manage a diet aswell. Let's not generalise.

As for the petanimals being bred...arn't farmanimals the same? Bread for food?

 

[Annouk]

Originally posted by old.Tohtori
As for the petanimals being bred...arn't farmanimals the same? Bread for food?

yes and thats why i dont agree with animals being continued to be bred as pets either. Wild animals should not be tamed for any reason.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Originally posted by Annouk
yes and thats why i dont agree with animals being continued to be bred as pets either. Wild animals should not be tamed for any reason.

Yes but.. if a homedog has a puppy. We shouldn't release those into the wild. Right? I think you'll agree.

If cattle have tiny ones, their as much homegrown allready as the puppies of a dog.

In other words, the only way to stop the meatindustry from continuing would be to kill all the cows, chickens and such.

Genocide hardly the answer...

 

[Ekydus]

It isn't animal cruelty and it isn't "natural" by the standards of letting them get on with it on their own. But who's to say some other species would come along and do the same? We are automatically placing ourselves as the high figure in all scenarios, which can also be considered unfair. Although not "natural" so to speak, if put into the position myself I would rather be a pampered dog then some fox going through a dustbin night after night. The whole idea of "tame" is that they are used to human contact and are not as aggressive... Well most animals such as foxes have come to be this way by themselves... By coming into cities for a habitat to claim as it's abode. While I'm on this subject I could also add that cities are not natural and that infact the whole human race on the whole is not natural.

 

[Annouk]

no point in starting a discussion on wot is natural and wot is not now. yes foxes etc have grown accustomed to human contact by coming into the cities etc but this is out of neccessity for them to survive since our cities are taking over so much of their countryside habitat. In general we need to have more consideration for the other species that share the land with us.

I agree that we shouldnt place ourselves highest Eky but the difference between us and other animals tends to be that they do things out of need we do them out of greed. We dont need to kill animals but we still do.

it would not take genocide for the industry to stop since most of the animals are intensively farmed. They would just need to be left to reproduce naturally.

And when i said bout the wild animals i meant that no more wild animals should be deliberatly forced to accept human contact. Puppies etc could no longer survive in the wild so we cannot undo wot is done there.

 

[old.job]

Vegetarians lack a very important enzyme in their diet you can only get from meat, unless they top up with it from a bottle, it means they are very poor at breaking down alchohol and paracetamol in the liver, they are actually much more prone to cirrosis of the liver and can overdose on paracetamol quite easily.

 

[Jonaldo]

Vegetarians are no less or more healthy than omnivores, they can get similar levels carbohydrates and vitamins from eating leaves and things like they do. It's just that they put themselves through unneccesary mundane lifestyles and quality of food to get the right balance of diet.

Myself, I've been raised in captivity, forced to live a lifestyle I don't enjoy, without the freedoms I would like and having to conform with what society deems normal for us just so it's easier to keep control of us. Humans are treated no different to animals, in fact, we are animals and we act that way every day.

I eat meat because it's natural to do so. Humans are omnivores, not carnivore or herbivore. So I'll do what comes naturally to humankind.

 

[Validus]

Originally posted by Annouk
it would not take genocide for the industry to stop since most of the animals are intensively farmed. They would just need to be left to reproduce naturally.

yes well since cows have gotten used to living under captivity their defensive systems have degenerated since we kept them safe from predators. if we set them all loose now, they will surely be extinct after a while. and that's genocide right?

 

[ormorof]

Originally posted by Validus
yes well since cows have gotten used to living under captivity their defensive systems have degenerated since we kept them safe from predators. if we set them all loose now, they will surely be extinct after a while. and that's genocide right?

like Teh Seel said earlier

 

[Tom]

You know what? I see a cow stood in a field and my first thought is - FOOD.

I really couldn't care less how it's killed - how is being hung upside down and drained of blood any worse than a big cat jumping on you and suffocating you to death? Actually, cows are stunned with a whacking great big bolt of electricity, they don't actually feel much at all.

As for vegetarians being more healthy, well, humans evolved as hunter-gatherers. For people to start waffling on about health problems associated with meat eating, is pure hypocracy. To date, I have never seen a healthy looking vegetarian.

Do you know what? Vegetarians fart for England. They absolutely fucking stink!

 

[Annouk]

I havent had a single health problem since i turned vegetarian and trust me i look perfectly healthy and i dont stink (ask my boyfriend)!! I dont have to eat a bland diet and i dont have to worry bout what i am eating to make sure i get enough of everything i need. You cant generalise and say that all vegetarians look unhealthy just like you cant generalise and say that all meat eaters do.

And cows would not become extinct in a matter of time... how many predators do u know of in any country where cows are farmed which would attack them were we not around..?

Originally posted by Tom.
Actually, cows are stunned with a whacking great big bolt of electricity, they don't actually feel much at all.

"Most cows are slaughtered by throat cutting (called sticking) following stunning using a captive bolt pistol. This is held to the cows head and the bolt penetrates the brain when fired. However, the use of a captive bolt does not always succesfully stun the animal. The most common failure in stunning is due to improper positioning of the bolt. This is a particular problem where cattle are agitated and struggling. Other problems may be due to inadequate maintenance of the pistol. Mis-stunning causes considerable distress and can mean the animal is still conscious during throat cutting."

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by Annouk
And cows would not become extinct in a matter of time... how many predators do u know of in any country where cows are farmed which would attack them were we not around..?

uhm a pack of wolves(and the USA does have those)?

and where I live(netherlands) cows cant actually be send into nature(or atleast not the millions that we have) as we have so little of it left and besides that it wouldnt fit it would totally mess up nature, which I do NOT want. By sending back into nature you will upset nature in one way or another (any action always has a reaction) and to be honest I wouldnt wanna risk my country's precarious amount of nature on it.
Now if they are set in the nature they would walk on roads and get hit by cars and all that as they havent learned that road = bad like all other wild animals have. Now that added with the fact that you have no actually clue what will happen to nature if you set cows loose makes it a really bad idea to do that.
But to let them live their lifes out on the farm and then dont eat them would be a rather bad idea aswell as that would mean that the state has to pay all the farmers for keeping those cows alive until they die by nature and then to bury them. That would probably bankrupt every country though . So best thing to do is just let farm animals stay, but decrease the numbers of farms around slightly every year. So that you have no problem with upsetting nature or maintaining expensive farms that make no money.


and those few misfires is the same thing as the animals getting killed by maintaining crops. The nest of birds getting smashed by a tractor or 100 other things that go wrong.. It happens, allthough we should do our best to prevent it.

 

[old.job]

The problem with not killing and eating animals for food purely on moral grounds is where do you stop, it's like banning fox-hunting, the next target then is fishing, after that swatting flies and keeping pets.

It won't be long before( and this is not as ridiculous as it seems) you have thousands of well meaning idealists out in nature stopping animals eating each other.

Plants are alive too, a cabbage is every bit as alive as a human being, it probably has more complicated DNA, the only difference is it doesn't have a mechanism to trigger pity when we kill it.

 

[Tom]

To be honest, the only thing that does concern me about eating meat, is the growth hormones that I've heard are sometimes used.

Other than that, I really couldn't give a toss if people raise animals for slaughter, they taste delicious. Especially bacon. MMMMM, bacon....

 

[old.Tohtori]

Originally posted by ormorof
like Teh Seel said earlier

See? Nobody reads my posts

 

[Jonaldo]

I'm kind of inclined to stop eating certain meats after some of what Annouk has been saying.

But at the same time I'm also tempted to start eating vegetarians instead if they're so fucking healthy.

 

[old.job]

Watch them making a burger or a sausage and you will NEVER eat one again.

 

[Annouk]

We couldnt release cows into the wild, they couldnt survive obviously. All i meant was that they could still be raised on farms but not intensively and killd at such a young age like they are now.

I personally dont have a problem with still using milk from cows as long as it is obtained in a humane way. (at the minute we get a majority of our milk from cows which have had their young taken away to be slaughtered) The farmers would still get an income from this as well as any other by-products which could be obtained after the cows death, such as leather etc.

Yes i think fox-hunting should also be banned and fishing...well.. fishing is a dodgy subject at the minute as there is so much speculation about whether the fish feel pain etc. Personally i dont like it tho.

 

[Tom]

Fish don't feel pain when they are caught. Imagine if someone stuck a 6 inch hook in your lip, and then pulled it hard away from you. Would you:

a) struggle like mad and resist, trying to move away

b) struggle but move toward the person doing the pulling

Which is more painful? That's how much pain the fish feel. I don't mind fox hunting either, I mean, which is the more humane option? Having lots of people running around at night with guns, trying to execute one-shot kills on foxes (and leaving lots of wounded running away), or a bunch of bloodthirsty hounds, chasing down a fox and ripping it to shreds?

It's just an orange dog ffs.

 

[Annouk]

why should foxes have to get killed in the first place tho?? its not like they are a threat to our poor defenceless chickens on the farm anymore, cuz most chickens aint kept anywhere near daylight now and when they are foxes have no chance of getting near them. They arent considered a pest any more so they should be free to live where they choose not hunted down for sport.

 

[Jonaldo]

An acceptable alternative would be to have checkpoints at the entrances/exits to all woodland where foxhunting is permitted.
At the end of the hunt, the hunters check in all pelts and corpses of the foxes they just killed, and in turn one hunter for each fox is also ripped to pieces by lots of angry dogs they keep at the checkpoint, starting with women and children first of course.

 

[tris-]

who cares what happens to the animal? your born, you die, what happens in the middle is a bonus and if that means we can live from eating them, whats the problem? im sure if cows and pigs where clever enough then theyd kill the farmers, escape, make a plan etc and start to farm humans, but as they are not..

 

[mirieth]

Originally posted by Omniscieous
An acceptable alternative would be to have checkpoints at the entrances/exits to all woodland where foxhunting is permitted.
At the end of the hunt, the hunters check in all pelts and corpses of the foxes they just killed, and in turn one hunter for each fox is also ripped to pieces by lots of angry dogs they keep at the checkpoint, starting with women and children first of course.

They should be given at least 12 seconds to run for their lives first though, surely?

 

[temseti]

Eat meat imo, you know cows and pigs would eat us if they could . But i've got nothing against vegetarians, never haveand will have, it's their personal choice.omg if people think animals can't survive without humans you must be dumb. I don't like it when people make their pets too dependant on them, we got about 4 cats and i think its cool when they come back with a rabbit or something after hunting )

Btw i would be really interested if anyone has statistics of the % of vegetarions in certain areas or cultures in different periods of time and if todays society has increased the amount of vegetarians.

 

[temseti]

Originally posted by Annouk
why should foxes have to get killed in the first place tho?? its not like they are a threat to our poor defenceless chickens on the farm anymore, cuz most chickens aint kept anywhere near daylight now and when they are foxes have no chance of getting near them. They arent considered a pest any more so they should be free to live where they choose not hunted down for sport.

They are still a threat, theres no doubt in that. If you've ever had chickens in a pen outside, you'll know if a fox gets in, it will kill every chicken it can and then try and hoard the rest before attention is alerted. Farmers get firearms certificts for this kind of thing, pest control. I don't like the idea of foxes being ripped to shreds, not my kind of thing, but fox hunting is just one of those country tradtions in england. I'd prefer if they just shot the fox *shrug*

 

[Annouk]

loads of info here bout veggies, specially throughout history if ur interested Temseti International Vegetarian Union