To all infiltrators!

[ztyx]

Problem with Double Frost on a inif/NS is that u need to get 2 hits in a row and with high evades that's kinda hard So you have like 25% (with evade 50%) to get it in after each evade compared to the Dragons Fang's 50% (with evade 50%).

But I guess it's almost even considering LA styles do massive dmg.

btw where are all the Nightshades?

 

[Vasconcelos]

Originally posted by old.Sanar
I have been playing friends 50 dw infil a lot lately and I havent found getting evade for df any hard when using dual shadows. Feels like its better to use dual shadows and wait for that evade than tranquilize+wywernfang. On top of the damage, DS doesnt take much endurance at all.

I recall reading from some VN board that someone was testing defensive penalties and found out that they only affect how much you take damage, not chance to evade, parry, block. Dunno if thats true then cause theres many posts saying the exact opposite.

Dual Shadows: Medium Defense Penalty
Tranquilize: Medium Defense Bonus
Obscure (18 DW style): High Defense Bonus

So Obscure>Tranquilize>>>Dual Shadows in terms of increasing Evade chance.

 

[katt!]

Originally posted by belth


Defensive penalty/bonus affects evade. Here's an example of me at lvl49 giving Korv some major Hamstring goodness:

Poor SB even used IP

I also had 48% evade rate at 49 against low to high yellow and low orange mobs, when doing Tranquilize/Wyvernfang. No Dodger, Aug Qui or buffs

buffed + dodger 2 fighting yellow/orange spindels i had 68% evade. both when using doublefrost and snowblind (defense penalty).

 

[Pin]

Defensive bonus/penalty does not modify chance to evade/block/parry, but does modify the amount of damage you take in the following combat round (I don't know if it affects plain miss rate). Basically, spamming Tranquilize (would use Obscure, but haven't been bothered respeccing yet - will probably do so at RR7) will keep me alive for an extra 2 rounds, which I prefer over doing an extra 200 damage on a +damage style (while taking extra damage from giving a defensive penalty). Staying in the fight for a couple of extra rounds gives more chances to evade in itself (more chance to stun, more chance to launch into the CS evade chain doing even higher damage, with a defensive bonus of it's own), gives more ticks from Lifebane, etc.

 

[dexa]

Originally posted by Pin


Sure. Dragonfang is 9 seconds.
http://www.camelotherald.com/styles/style.php?s=252

And? Been argued about many many times before. Level 50 style. Must spec to 50 in a line to get it.

Nightshades get theirs at 25 spec. Shadowblades at 39.

Can't compare a style just on the stun duration when clearly a level 50 style is supposed to be more powerful.

Also add that Frosty Gaze does higher damage than Dragonfang, and doesn't have a defensive penalty with it.

And Diamondback has a defensive bonus and has 2 styles to chain afterwards with higher damage. But sure.... just compare a level 25 and 39 styles with a level 50 style purely on the stun duration

speecing for the 2 chains after diamondblack well

offcourse a 50 is better then a 25 stile but why not put all 3
assasins stunstil at 39 and all have 7 sec stun but then u maby
loose the 2.5

 

[katt!]

just making dragonfang chain of some lower evade-based style would be a big nerf :O

oh.. and lower the +to hit on it.

 

[Vasconcelos]

Originally posted by kedal
just making dragonfang chain of some lower evade-based style would be a big nerf :O

oh.. and lower the +to hit on it.

Ok, n in exchange give us LA instead of DW

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by Noche


Doing 200-300 (SZ dmg) on me unbuffed (aka no baseline af buff) with 1 h and hit as fast as me, and when die drops 6 buffs, that´s called ubah infil

heaven forbid dual wield doing the same damage as left axe..

DW+buffs = left axe unbuffed !

 

[belth]

Originally posted by Vasconcelos


Dual Shadows: Medium Defense Penalty
Tranquilize: Medium Defense Bonus
Obscure (18 DW style): High Defense Bonus

So Obscure>Tranquilize>>>Dual Shadows in terms of increasing Evade chance.

On paper yes. In reality, no. I had people miss me more when using Obscure, which in turn resulted in less evades. Other way around with Tranquilize, which also has the added bonus of having a follow up which does acceptable damage (but seems to miss more than Tranquilize itself).

 

[Vasconcelos]

Originally posted by Pin
Defensive bonus/penalty does not modify chance to evade/block/parry, but does modify the amount of damage you take in the following combat round (I don't know if it affects plain miss rate). Basically, spamming Tranquilize (would use Obscure, but haven't been bothered respeccing yet - will probably do so at RR7) will keep me alive for an extra 2 rounds, which I prefer over doing an extra 200 damage on a +damage style (while taking extra damage from giving a defensive penalty). Staying in the fight for a couple of extra rounds gives more chances to evade in itself (more chance to stun, more chance to launch into the CS evade chain doing even higher damage, with a defensive bonus of it's own), gives more ticks from Lifebane, etc.

From Safehouse forums (class specified forum for assasins classes):
http://pub146.ezboard.com/fthesafehousefrm19.showMessage?topicID=4475.topic
According to that Defense Bonus from styles DOES increase evade/block/parry chances n miss from enemy also.
But i think u can find other posts which say the opposite.

And yes, agreed that DF is an almost-win style if u evade at time (i mean: 2nd blow from a buffed sb since the 3rd often kill ya )

 

[katt!]

17,You enter combat mode and target [Almecunia]
17,Almecunia is too far away to attack!
0,You auto-stick Celt.
16,Almecunia casts a spell!
29,You are hit for 182 damage.
17,Almecunia parries your attack!
17,Almecunia evades your attack!
18,Almecunia attacks you with his sword!
29,You are hit for 237 damage.
0,You are no longer auto-following your target.
0,You prepare to perform a Comeback!
0,You are now preparing to perform a Doublefrost style as a backup for Comeback!
0,You auto-stick Celt.
0,You are no longer auto-following your target.
17,You perform your Doublefrost perfectly. (+115)
17,You attack Almecunia with your axe and hit for 120 (-77) damage!
17,You critical hit for an additional 22 damage!
17,Almecunia is poisoned!
16,You hit Almecunia for 62 damage!
17,You attack Almecunia with your axe and hit for 25 (-16) damage!

this is LA unbuffed

 

[belth]

Originally posted by Pin
Defensive bonus/penalty does not modify chance to evade/block/parry, but does modify the amount of damage you take in the following combat round (I don't know if it affects plain miss rate). Basically, spamming Tranquilize (would use Obscure, but haven't been bothered respeccing yet - will probably do so at RR7) will keep me alive for an extra 2 rounds, which I prefer over doing an extra 200 damage on a +damage style (while taking extra damage from giving a defensive penalty). Staying in the fight for a couple of extra rounds gives more chances to evade in itself (more chance to stun, more chance to launch into the CS evade chain doing even higher damage, with a defensive bonus of it's own), gives more ticks from Lifebane, etc.

If defensive penalty/bonus affects damage taken, it's an indirect function of AF, which in turn affects atleast hits and misses on the receiving end.

Miss->Evade->Parry->Block->BT->Hit

Think that's the order the game checks the "events" when someone swings a weapon at someone. It's in a Grab Bag of Phenomenal Inaccuracy somewhere.

Basically if it affects hit/miss ratio, it will also affect the other defensive measures unless the bonus causes a hit. I bet it's a scale where normally a player is at zero point and the defensive bonuses/penalties move the "slider" to one direction or another, to put it simply.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by kedal

17,You enter combat mode and target [Almecunia]
17,Almecunia is too far away to attack!
0,You auto-stick Celt.
16,Almecunia casts a spell!
29,You are hit for 182 damage.
17,Almecunia parries your attack!
17,Almecunia evades your attack!
18,Almecunia attacks you with his sword!
29,You are hit for 237 damage.
0,You are no longer auto-following your target.
0,You prepare to perform a Comeback!
0,You are now preparing to perform a Doublefrost style as a backup for Comeback!
0,You auto-stick Celt.
0,You are no longer auto-following your target.
17,You perform your Doublefrost perfectly. (+115)
17,You attack Almecunia with your axe and hit for 120 (-77) damage!
17,You critical hit for an additional 22 damage!
17,Almecunia is poisoned!
16,You hit Almecunia for 62 damage!
17,You attack Almecunia with your axe and hit for 25 (-16) damage!

this is LA unbuffed

What are you trying to show with this? It doesn't tell what weapons you are using, what buffs Almecunia has, or anything much really.... Just that Almecunia has 39% total slash resist and your anytime style works out to having a dps of around 23 (assuming you have a 16.2dps mainhand weapon).

And well, 23dps style damage is kinda insane. The only styles I have with higher are backstab (requiring rear position + stealth), backstab2 (requiring rear position + stealth), perforate artery (requiring front position + stealth) and stunning stab (3rd in chain after perforate artery).


So... Tell me again what you are trying to show?

 

[belth]

Originally posted by kedal

17,You enter combat mode and target [Almecunia]
17,Almecunia is too far away to attack!
0,You auto-stick Celt.
16,Almecunia casts a spell!
29,You are hit for 182 damage.
17,Almecunia parries your attack!
17,Almecunia evades your attack!
18,Almecunia attacks you with his sword!
29,You are hit for 237 damage.
0,You are no longer auto-following your target.
0,You prepare to perform a Comeback!
0,You are now preparing to perform a Doublefrost style as a backup for Comeback!
0,You auto-stick Celt.
0,You are no longer auto-following your target.
17,You perform your Doublefrost perfectly. (+115)
17,You attack Almecunia with your axe and hit for 120 (-77) damage!
17,You critical hit for an additional 22 damage!
17,Almecunia is poisoned!
16,You hit Almecunia for 62 damage!
17,You attack Almecunia with your axe and hit for 25 (-16) damage!

this is LA unbuffed

That's a worst-case scenario pretty much, with a whopping 39% slash resist. Almecunia has 3% racial slash resist, 10% from armor and capped from items... Without any resists, that's nearly 200 on mainhand and 40 offhand (which does suck actually). Also, you're a 5-spec, correct?

[18:33:24] You perform your Dual Shadows perfectly. (+80)
[18:33:24] You attack Venomis with your sword and hit for 151 (-38) damage!

That's 50 thrust and DW unbuffed. Venomis did worse damage in an earlier fight though, beats me why - 34 LA only?

That's the only good reference I could find from my logs currently. Quite different style bonus, for you Doublefrost gives 115 out of 197 damage (58% of total damage), while Dual Shadows gives me 80 out of 189 damage (42% of total damage).

You've specced LA to 39 at best if 5-spec, axe to 39 or 44 at best. I've specced both Thrust and Dual Wield to 50, just to have a chance to match damage. That's quite a LOT of points, more than my 0.3 extra points/lvl.

Also, Doublefrost apparently caps at 400+ whereas Dual Shadows caps at 300+... There is no comparison, even with my offhander doing "full" damage when it connects. Nevertheless, I still like my damage. DW styles look more funky than that 1 animation LA has, too

Edit: Misread a bit, but not anything groundshaking.

 

[belth]

Dammit Pin, you should've looked for something in your logs like I did

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by belth
Dammit Pin, you should've looked for something in your logs like I did

Sorry, not at home, so have no logs to go through.

 

[belth]

Originally posted by Pin


Sorry, not at home, so have no logs to go through.

Looks nasty when there's 2 long posts in a row

 

[katt!]

Originally posted by Pin

What are you trying to show with this?

that LA damage is not as UBAH as you may think. with mid leather (+10% thrust) and 19% thrust resist i still get hit for 200+ on non PA styles from buffed infils.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by kedal


that LA damage is not as UBAH as you may think. with mid leather (+10% thrust) and 19% thrust resist i still get hit for 200+ on non PA styles from buffed infils.

And?

As you said, you were unbuffed.

If I am unbuffed, being hit by a buffed SB I get hit for 300-400. So, again... What are you trying to say?

My point was that Dragonfang and Dual Shadows style damage accounts for something in the region of 40-45% of damage from the style (one being positional, the other reactionary), Hamstring, Leaper, Rib Separation go for 50-55% of damage (reactionary, 3-style chain).

DoubleFrost is accounting for 60% of your damage and it's anytime - your positional styles in LA hit even harder. So... tell me again how LA damage isn't 'UBAH'.

 

[katt!]

Originally posted by Pin
DoubleFrost is accounting for 60% of your damage and it's anytime - your positional styles in LA hit even harder. So... tell me again how LA damage isn't 'UBAH'.

1: high end cost
2: low hit bonus
3: requires high spec, on 2.2 points to be useful.

it is the best "dual wield" spec no doubt. but the sbs got the short stick almost everywhere else.

(nightshades doesnt count )

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by kedal


1: high end cost
2: low hit bonus
3: requires high spec, on 2.2 points to be useful.

it is the best "dual wield" spec no doubt. but the sbs got the short stick almost everywhere else.

(nightshades doesnt count )

So... similar to Garotte then, except Garotte does half the damage.

And Dragonfang and Dual Shadows require 50 spec in Thrust and DW to get them. Not 34.... Sure, the higher you spec beyond 34, the higher the damage gets, who cares about the 0.3x extra spec points when you don't need to pump a line to 50 to get the good styles. Stop at 44LA and have SnowSquall -> Icy Brilliance for even sicker damage.

I really don't see how you can say you have the short end of the stick. Higher damage from lower spec styles which scale better if specced higher. Yeah, gotta pity that situation.

 

[katt!]

Originally posted by Pin

Stop at 44LA and have SnowSquall -> Icy Brilliance for even sicker damage.

then you wont get high poisons or pa/cd - you are melee focused - shouldnt you beat other assassins not specced for melee then?

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by kedal


then you wont get high poisons or pa/cd - you are melee focused - shouldnt you beat other assassins not specced for melee then?

Exactly... Everyone gives up something in their template.

I have 44CS and 16DW, I gave up high DW to have high CS and envenom.

You had the choice of CB, SZ, or a 5-spec (a bit of both). If you're 5-spec, then post a damage log from a pure SZ and then comment on LA damage again. Or look at a 1800 point perf from a CB and then comment on my 1140 (with maximum crit) PA and comment again.

Personally I don't rate a 5-spec SB as much, takes a lot of RR to give it the edge in my opinion.

 

[katt!]

Originally posted by Pin

I have 44CS and 16DW, I gave up high DW to have high CS and envenom.

You had the choice of CB, SZ, or a 5-spec (a bit of both). If you're 5-spec, then post a damage log from a pure SZ and then comment on LA damage again.

but then again - DW is effective even when not specced. a "cookie cutter" infil should be compared to a 5-spec.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by kedal


then you wont get high poisons or pa/cd - you are melee focused - shouldnt you beat other assassins not specced for melee then?

And well. Tell me how another assassin can spec for melee like a SZ? The fact is that even with a higher number of spec points to allocate, an inf cannot spec to do equal damage to a SZ.

Infiltrators rely on stuns, defensive bonus styles, very heavily on debuff poisons and luck (as does everyone) in order to win.

Shadowblades have higher damage. I don't think you can successfully argue against that one.

 

[katt!]

Originally posted by Pin
Shadowblades have higher damage. I don't think you can successfully argue against that one.

did i ever?

but dont forget to mention that it comes with a cost.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by kedal


did i ever?

hmmmmm

Originally posted by kedal


that LA damage is not as UBAH as you may think.

 

[katt!]

greater != ubah.

its better, but not UBAH compared to infils. some people want it to sound like sbs hit for 300-500 constantly, that DF outdamages PA constantly etc.

 

[belth]

What's your LA spec and Doublefrost cap?

 

[Noche]

pufff.... wot´s NS´s anytime beside garrote? A 4 hit pierce chain? :/

<cries>