Thx albs for some fun rvr tonight .. or

charmangle

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
May 27, 2004
Messages
1,376
You are a month to late to know the reason for this mate!:)

You are about a month to late to actually know the reasons for mids not serging etc. What you have to understand is that mids are still a great open field realm, but we stand no chance what so ever at taking keeps fast enough for us to be competetive. In my humble opinion the biggest (even though there are many other examples but those can be countered) issue is still the petspamming of albion/hib. Albion rock at taking keeps fast with 10 petspammers kill wall out of range from any midrange. And hibs rock at defeneding their keeps with animisthordes (well 3 animist is a horde if you count in their shrooms:) Midgård have to bang their heads blody against the walls whilst getting killed by oil (if at door)/longer range and higher damage classes/or pets. We tried serging and basically it didnt work (not from lack of trying but just that range/pets has become the most important part of it and we just dont have it). In my opinion all caster pets shouldnt be able to attack keeps/towers or/and all casters should only be able to use 1 pet in and around keeps/towers. (I know I will get a whinethread 200 yards long from all petspammers now but its still a fact that they do make up a huge part of the situation atm). We all know these facts, ofc the different classes want to defend their class on the forums and downgrade the importance of them but the fact still remains: We have a huge add in classes like: Cabbas, anemists, scouts, firewizzes. Its not like we have a 30% increase in paladins or warriors for that matter. Midgard isnt a bit better at giving the unuseful classes a secodn chance. Its just that we only have the runie or bd to choose from and they really dont make any difference in taking down the walls. Midgard will have to live with this for a year or so the biggest risk though is that the midgardians dont want to live with it and we follow the american trend and get a barren wasteland for midgard with polulations like 50 people primetime etc. I actually think all understand that this is where midgard is heading and I hope that all understand that its now just coz we cant organize...its just that alof of our main player base have left the game due to frustration. (Which I can understand even though I dont agree with it. I like beeing abit of an underdog.)

Atm its getting to a point with the population that we dont have enough people to get mls/dragonraids/relicraids etc done. (The problem is that we need more people than both albs/hibs on all those raids to be able to finish them) (Its the same development as on the american servers) And this will become a vicious circle, more people go to other servers or plain quit playing and go WoW because they cant get anything done here etc. Those of us organizing things on midgards/prywden try to keep the spirits up but I must say its getting harder and harder atm...I just hope we can ride this out without becomming a barren realm...or well all become pals on Albion at some point!:)

/Charmangle


Krissy said:
Having been inactive for a month or so, ive came back for abit of RvR before my subs run out.

In this time ive noticed one main point, albs are doing great at RvR, why?

Its not due to zerging, zerging is never good RP's.

Its not due overpowered chars.

Its due to bothering, noticed many mids/hibs going out in 1fg only or in small groups to busy areas, or duos (ewan and his smer pet fzing ppl off boats... and still misses fz often, skills I tell u skills! ).

Currently hibs and mids arnt trying, both have the populations and have proven it (hib RR attempts, which were fun btw, and mids well often known to have a population when motivated which they currently arnt).

Lame tactics, they are used by all realms, and always used by certain members of each realm. Stealthers and overpowered classes are often blamed for using these lame tactics (never heard of a generalisation of paladins/thanes as lame tactic users, often hear about bders/minstrels/scouts/rangers/ns/sorcs etc).

The game is such that everyone plays their own way, they pay to play their way not yours. You might not agree with their style, me neither but ive got to accept that its their choice not mine.

Camping isnt an issue in any respect, camping amg or beno bridge, difference?
Just happens that people like Dotbot and co do very well at it, and happen to own afew of a group in the process, seems like alot of fun to me, group should use DI more or not take such stupid paths if they dont want to take any damage from afew enemies.

On a final note, open your eyes theres a whole world out there, both in and out of daoc use the space given dont crowd, further away from the masses the more control you have over what happens.
 

charmangle

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
May 27, 2004
Messages
1,376
Hehe tried to but the time expired ill just sum it up...

Vladamir said:
Could you paragraph that please, my eyes are bleeding.

1. Albs/hibs petspamming makes it harder for midgards to take and defend keeps.
2. This has created a frustration in a large amounts of the main player base of midgard so we have been hit hard by WoW/NF combo.
3. Creating a vicious circle where more people leave coz we cant do mls/dragon or relicraids thus more people will quit and so on...
4. We try to keep the spirits up but its hard atm and the player base is getting so low that we are now having trouble finishing most kinds of raids. (since midgards needs more people than both alb/hib to actually pull them off this is bad)
5. It will take about a year for mythic to fix this unbalance in realm population/NFrvrpower

Lets just hope Midgards here can ride this time out and go against the trend on the american servers and not become an empty barren server. But if we dont well all become pals on Albion instead!:)

/Charmangle
 

raid

Can't get enough of FH
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Messages
1,368
charmangle said:
1. Albs/hibs petspamming makes it harder for midgards to take and defend keeps.

Actually theurg pets are pretty useless vs keeps, 1 damage per hit max vs the higher level ones, with a couple of theurgists it takes ages to get even 1% off a keep wall. Pets are nice for taking unclaimed/low level towers though (10dmg / nuke with ice pets) but then again any damage does fine, last time I played mid we took a tower with zerker, savage and warrior bashing the door and it went down in no time. Sure petspam helps but it's not the uber thing you make it out to be, it's the other siege stuff (which I know nothing about, never used any) which breaks the keep walls from range.
 

charmangle

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
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Messages
1,376
Hmm...missing the point abit...

raid said:
Actually theurg pets are pretty useless vs keeps, 1 damage per hit max vs the higher level ones, with a couple of theurgists it takes ages to get even 1% off a keep wall. Pets are nice for taking unclaimed/low level towers though (10dmg / nuke with ice pets) but then again any damage does fine, last time I played mid we took a tower with zerker, savage and warrior bashing the door and it went down in no time. Sure petspam helps but it's not the uber thing you make it out to be, it's the other siege stuff (which I know nothing about, never used any) which breaks the keep walls from range.

Hmm...I think you missing the point abit. Its the same as the hibs saying its not as big a point that we can spam shrooms etc inside the keep. You need to understand its not the damage and time you spend since we dont have the people to defend it. Its that you can do it without ever beeing within our range. We cant defend with oils at towers because you never get close to door we cant oil the courtyard coz your pets are running ammok inside the keep killing our seers etc...its not the time or damage its that it takes you out of our reach...

/Charmangle
 

willowywicca

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Messages
607
charmangle said:
Hmm...I think you missing the point abit. Its the same as the hibs saying its not as big a point that we can spam shrooms etc inside the keep. You need to understand its not the damage and time you spend since we dont have the people to defend it. Its that you can do it without ever beeing within our range. We cant defend with oils at towers because you never get close to door we cant oil the courtyard coz your pets are running ammok inside the keep killing our seers etc...its not the time or damage its that it takes you out of our reach...

/Charmangle

You know, you can use trebuchets to kill alb/hib walls out of reach of their defenders too.. and unlike alb pets, trebs won't take 12hours to destroy a wall..

Also, you can always use golden spear charged to AE the pets, which puts them all into melee mode and will draw them directly under the oil if they were attacking a door. (If they were attacking a wall there's no oil to speak of anyway on walls..)

I do agree however that mid is disadvantaged in keep taking/defending.. but not because of theurg pets. It's the (perception of a) lack of anything quite the equivalent of reavers/animists for countering zergs (yes yes I know, animists don't kill zergs blah blah, they do however hold them back or even force them back). Mids should try using BDs to bomb in the same way reavers do, only difference is that it'll require some teamwork from other classes too to give the same effect (tho bomb + ae stun should on it's own be as effective as a reaver bomb, add in a pbaoeing sm and you're looking at much more zerg killing potential than reavers -- just at a cost of coordination between multiple players being needed)
 

Boggy

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
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Messages
491
Mids' biggest enemy at the moment is demoralisation. I'm not belittling the problems with finding a decent set of siege tactics or the lack of a powerful weapon like animists or reavers, but those things only win fights. Demoralisation loses you population which is much worse and much harder to deal with.

I saw this pre-NF with Hibs. A combination of factors (partly Middie GG domination) started driving Hibs away from playing and the lowering population led to even more problems, making a nasty downward spiral. We were lucky - the launch of NF brought people back and our strong performance has kept most of them (for now).

I guess Mids need to either run a successful RR or hope that many return for 1.71.
 

charmangle

Fledgling Freddie
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Endresult...

willowywicca said:
You know, you can use trebuchets to kill alb/hib walls out of reach of their defenders too.. and unlike alb pets, trebs won't take 12hours to destroy a wall..

Also, you can always use golden spear charged to AE the pets, which puts them all into melee mode and will draw them directly under the oil if they were attacking a door. (If they were attacking a wall there's no oil to speak of anyway on walls..)

I do agree however that mid is disadvantaged in keep taking/defending.. but not because of theurg pets. It's the (perception of a) lack of anything quite the equivalent of reavers/animists for countering zergs (yes yes I know, animists don't kill zergs blah blah, they do however hold them back or even force them back). Mids should try using BDs to bomb in the same way reavers do, only difference is that it'll require some teamwork from other classes too to give the same effect (tho bomb + ae stun should on it's own be as effective as a reaver bomb, add in a pbaoeing sm and you're looking at much more zerg killing potential than reavers -- just at a cost of coordination between multiple players being needed)

Well I have a long answere in the ctrl-c atm but I write to much anyway. So in short: Mids end up 1/5 of the times fighting alb trebs and 4/5:th of the time facing their pets. So conclusion is that pets/range play to big a part in NF for mids to have a chance. What ever the exact reason is doesnt matter much...since the only thing we should be concerned about is how do we save mids on eu servers from going the same way as mids on american servers ? (Quit playing or rerolling albs)?

/Charmanlge

ps. Yep would be good if there were enough bds but there arent and there is no real way to lvl chars in midgard atm...pl is just about dead...oldfashion way takes to long for a long shot and you cant get ml1-ml8 in midgard anymore with new chars...
 

Dumle

Fledgling Freddie
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leviathane said:
this is such bullshit tbh, never stopped mids or hibs rvr'ing before nf where sorc's still have bolt range mezz. Learn to adapt and stop QQ'ing.


Look at the terrain in NF and then compare it to the terrain in OF, doesnt something tell you that boltrange mess > Instamess by far when its very very open?

Mids have a very hard time winning messbattle against albs atm.
Thats open (very open) field.


Keeps, well if a healer tries to mess someone inside keep he will die before even getting in range to do so. Scouts/bolts/2200 range petspamming will see to that.

Albs on the other hand have much better range on mess and can often sneak it in and the they can get closer to MA nuke some defenders/attackers down.


Disagree if you will, this is however my PoV playing as a mid.
 

willowywicca

Fledgling Freddie
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607
charmangle said:
Well I have a long answere in the ctrl-c atm but I write to much anyway. So in short: Mids end up 1/5 of the times fighting alb trebs and 4/5:th of the time facing their pets. So conclusion is that pets/range play to big a part in NF for mids to have a chance. What ever the exact reason is doesnt matter much...since the only thing we should be concerned about is how do we save mids on eu servers from going the same way as mids on american servers ? (Quit playing or rerolling albs)?

/Charmanlge

ps. Yep would be good if there were enough bds but there arent and there is no real way to lvl chars in midgard atm...pl is just about dead...oldfashion way takes to long for a long shot and you cant get ml1-ml8 in midgard anymore with new chars...


Erm there's not enough BDs? there's plenty of them.. ffs the top3 lwrp holders in mid are BDs..

And dumle, while for openfield you're sorta right (los bugs even on nearly flat terrain make long range not as big an advantage often..), with regards to keeps you're wrong, hunters and rangers get significant range bonuses from height, both of which negate the range bonus of mezz (they can shoot farther than I can nearsight from -barely- and my nearsight is 2500 range, unlike sorc mezz which breaks 2k only)
 

Azathrim

Fledgling Freddie
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Yeah, but Scouts range tops them all. Easily.

A scout on the ground can shoot a hunter on a level 10 tower.
A hunter on the ground cannot shoot a scout on a level 10 tower.

That is your balance.
 

Dumle

Fledgling Freddie
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willowywicca said:
Erm there's not enough BDs? there's plenty of them.. ffs the top3 lwrp holders in mid are BDs..

And dumle, while for openfield you're sorta right (los bugs even on nearly flat terrain make long range not as big an advantage often..), with regards to keeps you're wrong, hunters and rangers get significant range bonuses from height, both of which negate the range bonus of mezz (they can shoot farther than I can nearsight from -barely- and my nearsight is 2500 range, unlike sorc mezz which breaks 2k only)


First there arent many "active" BDs, and the fact that its almost impossible to get a RvR group going atm (not that many seers bother to play now) and the solution you talked about, for "faking" a reaverbomb involves a heck of alot of more classes ;) its possible but not likely, hehe.


Second, LoS affects healers as well as sorcs, difference is the added rangeadvantage still means albs will win mess against mids 80%+ of the times (not talking about good midgrps such as BO/Mael/EL/KN or Bulle as they are all more or less inactive atm).
And to add that LoS bugs from terrain gets fixed in 1.71? then I guess we are more shit out of luck then ;) hehe
And also with ToA castspeed a 3.0s(?) AE mess with boltrange+10% is down to about 1,2-1,5s cast? Its close enough to insta if you know how to use /face when casting, and Im guessing most sorcs do ;)
Im sure that a midgrp and a albgrp if they see eachother at the same time, both out of range from the start healer starts sprinting to get into range for insta and sorc will still have time to cast 1-2 messes before he is close enough.

When it was tankwars a failed mess could still be saved, now that it is all casters if you fail mess half your grp is dead before you can even try to salvage the situation, so albs win most of the time.

Im pretty sure that every healer atm would gladly trade all form of insta CC for Boltrange mess atm ;)

And what I meant about keepsituations is that it is possible for a sorc to sneak in a mess, a healer will have to get too close to the keep to do the same and will die 99% of the time.
 

Yma

Fledgling Freddie
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Well, we may talk for hours about balanced or not, adapt or not, morale or not ... there is just one true fact: for too many of us mids (and, for those blind enough, I mean worldwide mids, not just prydwen), NF keep warfare is not fun, and so many play for fun. More power to you albs and hibs if you find it so fun, that's great.

Then you can believe what you want: our frontier will still be empty. It's not our or your fault, blame those that decided that we didn't need any funky siege class and left ours open field focused (and nerfed those that were, see pbaoe not passing thru doors - surely a needed nerf considering NF, but that was our main strength in OF keep warfare).
 

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