Thought of the day: Remove Stealth from DAoC

[iceflower]

>Eeeeeehhh??
>100 days to L50 and near RR5? Dude, you need some skills.

You are supposed to have fun while playing, if you just forcemarch through the game, why play in the first place?

Loh Katta
Bubblegirl

 

[iceflower]

>Stealth is counter productive to fun? What about assist trains then?

The assist train members are the blue collar workers of Doac. You get the same experience as manning a spot in a construction line at the local factory when manning the /assist button

Loh Katta
Bubblegirl

 

[iceflower]

I find it amusing that the stealth issue is such a problem. Mythic provides the tools to counter it. And no one seems to be interestind in using them...

Maybe the "uber" gank group design isnt so "uber" at the end of the day. Time to go back to the drawing board and use the grey cells again?

Loh Katta
Bubblegirl

 

[Tesla Monkor]

Part of the problem is that there are TOO MANY stealthers. No matter the 'tools' you mention.

Hell, if I TS an area and see 1 fg of stealthers there, I'm sure as hell not attacking them.

"Yes, but you can tag (knock them out of stealth) and have your 3 FG of FOTM Savages kill them!", I hear you think.

Theoretically, yeh.

Now try for reality, hitting 8 stealthed assassins in under 60sec will be harder than you think. That's giving you that you're actually already in range of all of them.

ToA will change things dramatically. No more gankgroups - just zergs. Imagine what a few people carrying the 'You transfer all your pulse effects to everyone in range'-artifacts will do.

Imagine what say, 2 groups of mids with a few Scorpion-Ring wearing PBT runies will do? And you thought those PBT Hib groups were hard to hit... all of them will be impossible to hit. They don't even need to be grouped with the bubble provider.

It works the other way too, actually. I've read reports of a group of 6 mids destroying 52 hibs because they had healers with the correct MLs.

Things will be interesting. RvR is going to change dramatically. Think 'Extinction of the Dinosaurs'-type of event.

I'll grant you that part of my complaining, whining if you wish, versus the stealth zerg comes from personally getting slaughtered time and time again.

As for 'compensating' assassins for losing stealth in one of the previous suggestions - hell no. They've had it too easy for months already. Personally I wouldn't shed a tear if they were nerfed into the ground. 200 days played or not. But hey, that's me, and I don't make the rules.

 

[Jaem]

Too much of one thing usualy means the other is shite... I have a few group chars, yet I play stealth, AS! group RvR in random groups means sitting at mpk for a group, I'd rather be able to take my chances with a stealth class where I can at least solo...

hey my opinion...

improve normal RvR and I bet alot of the stealther population will disappear...

 

[ashitaka]

Not remove stealth, but redesign it totally. Assassins will be ruined if stealth is removed of course.

My suggestion: make stealth only available in night time, and shadowy corners, near tree's and obstacles and so forth. Standing in the middle of a field isn't much of a good cover is it? In short; make it all alot more realistic.

And, to nerf assassins even more, give ALL fighter-ish classes high resists or complete immunity to poisons, diseases and backstabing styles (ie. any criticalstrike style will be failed on a fighter). This will surely prevent assassins from jumping tanks.

If this would be in effect, there would surely be alot fewer assassins, and they would be forced back to the original idea of assassins; sneaky lurkers, dwelling in shadows. Setting traps, infiltrating, spying, gathering information, and even assassinating important targets, ie. casters.

What about arhcers and minstrels, though? Remove stealth from minstrel completely! They should be acolyte or something, maybe fighter, but not rogue! Archers should have the ability to be unseen while not moving. True camoflage. While moving they are stealthed, but visible as if you had true sight enabled. For example. I have many ideas.. but none of them removes stealth completely.

A serious stealth-redesign is in its place. The current situation is a joke.

 

[araudry]

Originally posted by scarffs
Thought of the day : Hmm lets remove bows from the game.
It would make archers obsolete, but I dont play one, so I dont care.

Ah and lets remove pbaoe from the game, that would really make fights more fun for me.

 

[araudry]

Originally posted by ashitaka

And, to nerf assassins even more, give ALL fighter-ish classes high resists or complete immunity to poisons, diseases and backstabing styles (ie. any criticalstrike style will be failed on a fighter). This will surely prevent assassins from jumping tanks.

 

[ashitaka]

Originally posted by araudry

Aye, really funny, cause that means you don't have any more "I win buttons". Obbah k33dz w1th stl0ng sk1llz.. sigh.

Supposedly, Hero (for example) are fierce warriors, trained in melee combat and hardship. They are the champions of melee combat and you don't want to cross blades with one, unless you have god on your side etc. Assassins are supposed to be sneaky, devious and treacherous hirelings that do the dirty and dexterous jobs.. NOT WTFPWND TANKS IN 5 SECONDS. No, I'm not a roleplayer, but I do like a game that doesn't have flying Tanks and swimming Airplanes.. most of the classes in DAOC has nothing to do with what that type is supposed to do.. if you know what I mean.

 

[araudry]

Originally posted by ashitaka
Aye, really funny, cause that means you don't have any more "I win buttons". Obbah k33dz w1th stl0ng sk1llz.. sigh.

Supposedly, Hero (for example) are fierce warriors, trained in melee combat and hardship. They are the champions of melee combat and you don't want to cross blades with one, unless you have god on your side etc.

and again

Originally posted by ashitaka
NOT WTFPWND TANKS IN 5 SECONDS.

then maybe u need new armor or something proly and bb too?;o

 

[araudry]

with the nerf u says my pala can solo maybe 8 sbs instead of 4 then would just log pala to solo ns/sb then no need to group since i can get 8 sbs

 

[Jaem]

last time I faced a tank on my assasin, I got 2 hit by some 2hd spec alb :/

thats like 1300hp gone, I'd guess he was buffed, but I can't wtfpwn tanks in 5 secs :<

 

[ilaya]

i do know what u mean in a sense i t seems kinda mad that someone can sneak up on me in an open field without me seeing him.. crazy shit that..

but stealthers are needed.. maybes if the terrain gave an added stealth factor that would better... i.e. open fields.. no chance matey... shrubbery.. (no jokes plz hehe ) 50% and wooded areas 100%.. all based on normal stealth values.. makes sneaky gits more sneaky and skillfill imo

yes drunk but what you gonna do about it.. eh?!

 

[si1verwolf]

I think there is a valid role for stealthers, both solo and grouped. They are unseen eyes. Scouting, assassinations of cloth wearers etc all perfectly fine. Groups of these guys are useful in keep takes etc... all sounds good so far.

Downside in my view is being stealthed in completely open terrain, plus not being visible when right in front of you. Stealth implies some guile and cunning and sneakiness, moving from shadow to shadow. Stealth in my view is not the same as invisibility... perhaps "they" should rename it to invisibility and people would probably say "fair enough"... to a degree.

In my view it's the combination of "not being able to see them in front of your nose", laden with every buff under the sun from a buff bot sat happily at the PK, taking out a heavy tank irritates me. But I suppose we all know that Savages, Bonedancers, Mincers, Buffbots, stealth etc all make DAoC unbalanced... Some of these things can be nerfed, others would take a great deal of rethinking... But just because something is difficult to change doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed! Whether anything will actually happen is a completely different matter.

 

[old.Ramas]

Reasonable assumptions....

1) People who have stealth characters, on the whole, want stealth to exist, or they would have picked a different class.

2) People who do not have stealth are designed to run in balanced groups.

3) Balanced groups > stealthers.

Therefore conclusion....

The only people who give a damn about stealth are stealthers themselves.

That said...

Scouts become bowmen ... They have chain instead of stealth and more hit points

A non-stealth archer class would be cool - anything that adds more options to the real game is a good thing.

There is no particular reason to change the stealth setup though - most stealthers want stealth, and all stealthers are utterly irrelevant to most non-stealthers.

/shrug

Make stealth like it is in Planetside. When you move they are 30% visible. Problem sovled.

In planetside you aim your own weapon. That is why this solution works in planetside. In DAoC this would effectively be the same as giving everyone see hidden, but also setting it so when someone has you targetted, all you have to do is stop moving to clear their target box - that would get old fast.

 

[gramaton]

Remove Mezz/Stun or lower the duration/easier to resist and less people would play stealthers. I loved playing pally and wiz in RvR but got sick of being mezzed/stunned all the time so like many others decided to make a stealther.

RvR battles are all too often about who gets the mez of first wins which is a shame because the fights would certainly be more fun without that.

 

[Brannor McThife]

You've got it wrong. They topic should be:

Change Invisibility to Stealth.

The issue is not so much the ability to move quietly, but rather the fact that "stealth" classes are actually invisible, and other assassins/archers have "see invisible" and NOT "see hidden". FFS, you can't be "hidden" standing in the middle of the bowl in Emain.

THAT, is the issue. Assassions should NEVER be able to PA a character that is stationary with his LARGE shield out waiting for an attack, that's utter bullshit. Backstab, sure, but PA? What a joke.

-G

 

[scarffs]

Brannor, this is a fantasy game though. Maybe the guy is so fast he gets past your large shield ? It certainly isnt stretching beyond shooting fireballs or making everyone around you explode.

 

[Brannor McThife]

Originally posted by scarffs
Brannor, this is a fantasy game though. Maybe the guy is so fast he gets past your large shield ? It certainly isnt stretching beyond shooting fireballs or making everyone around you explode.

All true and well, but then call it what it is. It most definately isn't stealth. It is invisibility in truest form of definition according to all previous fantasy games that have come before.

In D&D, you are invisible till you attack your enemy, etc.

And then, you should give it to mages as well.

If we have fireballs as you say, then why can't mage classes go invisible, those are the two most common spells to mages.

As as for speed, sure, but then I would still have a chance of blocking him. Not just a default 100% chance of getting past the shield.

-G

 

[old.Sandariel]

Originally posted by ashitaka
Aye, really funny, cause that means you don't have any more "I win buttons". Obbah k33dz w1th stl0ng sk1llz.. sigh.

Supposedly, Hero (for example) are fierce warriors, trained in melee combat and hardship. They are the champions of melee combat and you don't want to cross blades with one, unless you have god on your side etc. Assassins are supposed to be sneaky, devious and treacherous hirelings that do the dirty and dexterous jobs.. NOT WTFPWND TANKS IN 5 SECONDS. No, I'm not a roleplayer, but I do like a game that doesn't have flying Tanks and swimming Airplanes.. most of the classes in DAOC has nothing to do with what that type is supposed to do.. if you know what I mean.

Heh, when I read this one it reminded me of some very true and funny post I read on VN some time a go. And guess what, I bookmarked it, so here we go:

It's all about perception and people's unwillingness to accept the fact that they could possibly be the reason they died and not that someone's overpowered.

From the point of view of the lone, unbuffed player.

Player: Dammit, missed my group. Better catch up with them at Crim.
A Hastener casts a spell!
Player: /gu wait up at Crim guys, I'm coming.
Player: Hmm...might be one of those damn assassins around here. I'd better zigzag a bit and stay out of the main routes.
[guild]: Hurry up, man, we're waiting!
Player: /gu Ok, I'm going as fast as I can.
Player: It looks pretty empty out here and there hasn't been any spam in 15 minutes. I'll just beeline it.
Player: /gu I'm entering Breif....
Assassin: Perf, poison, poison, CD, poison, SS, garrote
Player: /gu I'm entering Breifeeeeeeeee12121212121 [enter]
[Guild]: Huh???
Assassin: Garrote, Achilles Heal, Garrote, Achilles Heal
Player: Damn, an infiltrator! I'd better hit AP. Ack! Already at half health. BAH! I'm still in my PVE gear.
You must be near a forge to make that.
Player: Ooops, wrong quickbar. FREAKIN' INFILTRATORS
Assassin: Garrote, Achilles Heal, Garrote, Achilles Heal
Player: /gu goddam FOTM overpowered infiltrator just 3 shotted me as I was leaving Cruach Gorge. There is NO WAY an assassin should be able to take out a tank. They need a freakin' nerf!

From the point of view of the assassin:

Assassin: This looks like a good spot. Took me 40 minutes to stealth here, I'd better find someone!
Assassin: Lag, someone's coming! Damn. Full group.
Assassin: There's someone! Bah, too far away to line up on.
Assassin: Here we go! crap, a duo.
Assassin: Finally, someone running alone in a straight line.
Assassin: Assassin: Perf, poison, poison, CD, poison, SS, garrote
Player: /gu I'm entering Breifeeeeeeeee12121212121 [enter]
[Guild]: Huh???
Assassin: Garrote, Achilles Heal, Garrote, Achilles Heal
Player: Damn, an infiltrator! I'd better hit AP. Ack! Already at half health. BAH! I'm still in my PVE gear. Ooops, wrong quickbar.
Assassin: Garrote, Achilles Heal, Garrote, Achilles Heal
Player: /gu goddam FOTM overpowered infiltrator just 3 shotted me as I was leaving Cruach Gorge. They need a freakin' nerf!
Assassin: Woot! 920 rps. Not bad for an hours work.
Assassin: Bah...full group...
Assassin: Too far away...
Assassin: Three people. Too many.
Assassin: Oh, there's one....bah, JUST missed him.
Assassin: Hey, there's that tank again and he's still running in a straigh line. Too bad he's not worth any rps.
Taken from here: http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=58896397&replies=20

Anyway, don't nerf stealth, it's fine the way it is, stealth attacks are avoidable 90% of the time and will get nerfed soon enough with ToA.

Don't complain if you get stealthzerged at a mg, everyone knows loads of stealthers hang around there.

Don't complain if you're a tank and allow an assassin to kite you, you actually deserve to die.

Don't complain if you wear epic, are unbuffed and get 3 shot by a buffed assassin.

Don't complain if you're too slow to react to an attack from stealth.

Oh, and check relic status before posting whine threads on bw, the guy who just assassinated you "might" have had up to 30%+ dmg to you (20% relics, 10% armor vulnerability)

etc.

And yeah, stealth on stealthers IS invisibility, but whatever you call it, it works and I don't see any other way to implement it without ruining the current stealth classes. They'd have to rebuild assassins from scratch since they're so dependant on PA/BS.
The reason everyone's rolling a stealther is that random rvr groups really really suck. I don't enjoy sitting at apk for 2 hours, get a group, die to a savage assist train, have 2 ppl disbanding, try 1 hour to get a replacement, run again, die to a 2fg minizerg, release, have 4 ppl disband etc. Those people start rolling stealthers. So currently we got shitloads of stealthers in rvr so we got shitloads of ppl complaining about them, too.
Look at it this way:
The chance as an inf to find a suitable target is like 1:10
While the chance for the suitable target to die to an assassin is 10:1. If that makes any sense

Oh and invisibility on casters is silly, stealthers can't pbae and stuff, so they're either no issue or a very small one in big fights.
Imagine 8 invisible ice wizzies at a mg tho...
Blanced? Don't think so ^^

P.S.: My main is a wizzie
P.P.S.: Nerf buffbots
P.P.P.S.: This is from the solo infs perspective, I don't stealth zerg and usually manage to avoid them.
P.P.P.P.S.:feel free to flame