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[Bodhi]

Easy there cochise, I was just providing a reason why sprinklers weren't fitted, you'll get no disagreement from me that they should have been fitted anyway.

I'm just more interested to see what the public enquiry throw up before getting on my soapbox apportioning blame. The cladding does look extremely suspect, but this is not just a UK issue, the same cladding is used worldwide (except Germany and the US). How much longer for, remains to be seen.

As an aside, why would you develop flammable building cladding?

I just found it amusing to blame it on skint councils when, by any metric, RKBC is far from skint. Interesting to note that their new MP served on the board of KTMO for 4 years as well.

 

[Scouse]

The cladding does look extremely suspect, but this is not just a UK issue, the same cladding is used worldwide

Agree. But we've clearly dropped the ball with emerging materials building standards development - and what happens in the rest of the world doesn't really matter here does it? We need to do it ourselves.

I just found it amusing to blame it on skint councils when

I made a wide ranging point about legislation, standards (both of which should be UK-wide and central government controlled) and funding on a number of levels. So I didn't blame it on skint councils.

But yeah. Public enquiry'll come out, some people will get slapped, business as usual. Brexit will be a bonfire of regulations - not just building regs, but all sorts of environmental protections (which I'm more interested about than building regs - callous as it seems the human race isn't in any sort of danger and if we're dumb enough to do what we're doing then fair enough - but we shouldn't be taking the rest of the planet down with us).

 

[Scouse]

Anyway - cheaper non fire-resistant cladding confirmed to have been used at a cost saving of £2/sq m. £1,200,000 profit and a £950k dividend made/paid last year on that property.

Building regs met. Building regs need tightening up. More red tape needed...


Edit: Fag packet calculations pulled out of my arse - say 70 meters long, 170 meters tall, cladding on 4 external surfaces, saving of £2/sq m - that's less than 100 grand. Could have installed fire resistent cladding and still turned a tidy profit - but didn't have to.

 

[Bodhi]

Anyway - cheaper non fire-resistant cladding confirmed to have been used at a cost saving of £2/sq m. £1,200,000 profit and a £950k dividend made/paid last year on that property.

Building regs met. Building regs need tightening up. More red tape needed...

Or just improve the red tape we already have.

Got to love the Guardian though - what does it matter how much profit Omnis made last year? It's as spurious as the Daily Mail and their obsession with house prices.

 

[Raven]

I didn't bring up the sprinklers @Raven - @Bodhi did.

And it all comes back to what I said originally. Nobody's addressed that - apart from the disagree brigade of you and bodhi who seem to have an issue with standards being applied, new building materials being tested for suitability and legislated for, inspectors fully inspecting and buildings being made safe simply because it means a properly funded state infrastructure and more "red tape" for business - and that goes against your ideology.

I've already told you that you have no idea what you are talking about, saying it in new and interesting ways won't change that.

 

[caLLous]

Niagara Falls survivor Kirk Jones dies in plunge in inflatable ball - BBC News

You'd think if you survived it once you'd count your blessings and not try it again...

 

[Raven]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVCCQI9NQok

 

[Job]

If the government actually invested in the fire service instead of trying to shut down fire stations I would maybe lean a little in your point of view.

But sadly they don't and the fire service has to deal with the resources they are given. Don't blame them for the lack of resources. Twat.

Blame the fire service...oh yes the fire service is totally good old boys risking their lives..no its run by accountants and they line up risk against cash.
The fire service is there for when everything goes wrong...and it should have the capacity to deal with every scenario.
It quite clearly had nothing to offer the people in that tower and pointing it out gets you called a twat...because...what..they tried their best?

 

[Raven]

Being a twat gets you called out as being a twat. Mostly because you are a twat.

No organisation can deal with every scenario. It would be dumb for every fire service to have a big arse platform that can reach that high "just in case" this block of flats is not something unique to London. They would need them all over the country, in every town.

Considering it took about 30 mins to go from a flat fire to a block of flats fire, any equipment would have been useless. It has been stated many times that a flat fire just cannot spread due to the design of flats. The only way a fire can leap from one place to another is a fuel source that links the two, the fuel source being the cladding.

The blame will be laid at the contractors and possibly the manufacturers and rightfully so.

 

[georgie]

a big arse platform

Admittedly no hyphen, but I'm not sure that makes it any better.

Also, I can't seem to stop doing it now.

 

[Raven]

Yes it is pretty poor English, however, it portrays meaning, which is fine.

 

[old.user4556]

I'm watching Star Trek TNG on Syfy - Jesus, councillor Troi was a fucking sexy, sexy woman.

 

[Scouse]

I've already told you that you have no idea what you are talking about, saying it in new and interesting ways won't change that.

You've *said* it, but not backed it up.

And you're wrong. But hey ho.

 

[Scouse]

I'm watching Star Trek TNG on Syfy - Jesus, councillor Troi was a fucking sexy, sexy woman.

Used to have a recurring nightmare that I would always bwcome conscious in halfway through. Terrifying until that point but absolutely fine from then on because it always ended in a threesome with her and Beverly in some river in the Grand Canyon

 

[Raven]

I'm watching Star Trek TNG on Syfy - Jesus, councillor Troi was a fucking sexy, sexy woman.

I would ruin her, and her early 90s haircut.

 

[Raven]

You've *said* it, but not backed it up.

And you're wrong. But hey ho.

I am not going to even bother, what would be the point? You are incapable of seeing anything that isn't in your strange little head.

Just because this has happened, a unique occurrence btw, does not mean the regs are not up to scratch, it means the regs have been ignored. Like any law, it does not prevent people from breaking it. Those that have broken it will be prosecuted, probably corporate manslaughter.

Nor does it mean that any sensible regs are binned in future, you have just been sucked into the media hype, like an idiot. If anything regs have got tighter over the last few years, and not just regs from the EU, many of them are an absolute pain in the arse but when you actually read them and experience life without them they become very sensible.

An anecdote. We had a couple of Irish lads doing a job for us, in the Republic of Ireland. They decided that rather than worrying about putting on harnesses and using a safe scissor lift they would get 2 forklifts and a pallet and make their own high access platform. Anyway, one of them fell off then tried to sue us for their own idiocy. Turned out they completely ignored our risk assessment and guidelines and did "whatever" after all, they had done it a hundred times. Try that on a UK site and you might as well announce to everyone that you are a practising peado. Sensible and safe legislation is welcomed, by everyone that is not a complete moron.

Sure sure, there is a big deal made of "cutting red tape" in the gutter press but for the most part sensible regs will be kept and continue to be enforced in the UK, unlike our friends in the EU, who do whatever man, get the job done.

 

[Gwadien]

It's contractors taking the piss out of Councils because Councils don't have the qualified staff to deal with contractors, it's usually accountants.

'We can save you £50k here (contractors will save £200k)'

'Yeah sure!'

It's contractors taking the piss out of woefully understaffed (and granted, inefficient) bureaucratic bullshit councils.

The same problem will pop up everywhere, I can promise it.

In a similar vein, schools are pretty much the same, buildings built in 2016 without proper ventilation and/or air-con of any sort.

Stick 32 kids in a room and watch them melt. Shit will kick off because of it eventually and hopefully we'll start building like we're a developed country again.

 

[Raven]

Funnily enough, we managed just fine before the EU. Much of "OMG EU REDTAPE OMG" is far below British standards.

 

[dysfunction]

Blame the fire service...oh yes the fire service is totally good old boys risking their lives..no its run by accountants and they line up risk against cash.
The fire service is there for when everything goes wrong...and it should have the capacity to deal with every scenario.
It quite clearly had nothing to offer the people in that tower and pointing it out gets you called a twat...because...what..they tried their best?

Yes you are a twat because you are talking as though it's a business that has full autonomy on what it spends it's money one. It isn't it's run by the Government

For example Government says here is 20 mill to spend. Fire service goes excellent thanks we will spend 200mill on a platform to put out a tower block fire.
The rest of the -180 mill we will spend paying the firemen, running the stations and servicing the fire egnines and fire equipment.

oh wait...we owe you 180 mill....um....ok let's just keep the fire service running on a shoe string budget and hope we don't have to deal with a major fire that has not occurred in 30 years and maybe we can stop 5 fire stations from closing.

Twat.

 

[Job]

Yes Im the twat.
Pointing out the total impotence of the rescue services in tower block fires.
All the money for the fire services goes on pensions....
I ask for 10 million for equipment to save ourselves from this horror..and Im the unrealistic twat.
All this will come out in the enquiry.

 

[Job]

Being a twat gets you called out as being a twat. Mostly because you are a twat.

No organisation can deal with every scenario. It would be dumb for every fire service to have a big arse platform that can reach that high "just in case" this block of flats is not something unique to London. They would need them all over the country, in every town.

Considering it took about 30 mins to go from a flat fire to a block of flats fire, any equipment would have been useless. It has been stated many times that a flat fire just cannot spread due to the design of flats. The only way a fire can leap from one place to another is a fuel source that links the two, the fuel source being the cladding.

The blame will be laid at the contractors and possibly the manufacturers and rightfully so.

One single 300ft water jet delivery platform could have saved lives by firing directly into the flats , reducing heat, supressing smoke.
They did nothing...nothing..they wetted the bottom while people were burnt alive 100ft above.
One single rig in london could have reached anywhere within 30 mins...theres a tower fire..it heads out straight away.
But it seems thats ridiculous..just give up..let them die..it costs too much.

 

[Tom]

One single 300ft water jet delivery platform could have saved lives by firing directly into the flats , reducing heat, supressing smoke.

Wow, now the Fire Service should be buying equipment that doesn't exist.

Wumag WT 1000 | 100 Meter Cherry Picker

That's just about the biggest cherry picker you can get. 600kg load in the basket. Would you like to guess what a 300ft fire hose, filled with water weighs? And how do you get the water up that 300ft without dragging along a fuckoff massive pump? You know that to pump water that high takes a great deal of pressure, right? More pressure than you can cart around on a fire engine. And then there's the force of the water acting on the boom, how do you control for that?

Suddenly you're not buying a cherry picker off the shelf, you're having someone design and manufacture one. Just for you. So you can forget a quarter million quid, now you're looking at multiples of that figure, just so you can have a nice big cherry picker with a magical arm shooting water out of a massive hose powered by the world's biggest fire appliance, all for an extremely rare tower fire.

I bet you also think councils should have fleets of snow ploughs on standby for the 1 hour of snow we see each year. Knob.

All the money for the fire services goes on pensions....

Yeah, fuck those guys who risk their lives to save people and property. Who the fuck do they think they are, having a nice pension? Cunts.

 

[Job]

I know it's the fail....but read it.

London fire chiefs even had to borrow engines from Surrey | Daily Mail Online

 

[Job]

Wow, now the Fire Service should be buying equipment that doesn't exist.

Wumag WT 1000 | 100 Meter Cherry Picker

That's just about the biggest cherry picker you can get. 600kg load in the basket. Would you like to guess what a 300ft fire hose, filled with water weighs? And how do you get the water up that 300ft without dragging along a fuckoff massive pump? You know that to pump water that high takes a great deal of pressure, right? More pressure than you can cart around on a fire engine. And then there's the force of the water acting on the boom, how do you control for that?

Suddenly you're not buying a cherry picker off the shelf, you're having someone design and manufacture one. Just for you. So you can forget a quarter million quid, now you're looking at multiples of that figure, just so you can have a nice big cherry picker with a magical arm shooting water out of a massive hose powered by the world's biggest fire appliance, all for an extremely rare tower fire.

I bet you also think councils should have fleets of snow ploughs on standby for the 1 hour of snow we see each year. Knob.



Yeah, fuck those guys who risk their lives to save people and property. Who the fuck do they think they are, having a nice pension? Cunts.

You are actually arguing why people should be left to die, because it's to expensive to build and they wouldn't be used very often.
Why don't you nip down to Kensington and explain your logic in front of the residents association.
They CAN be bought, they might need some clever thinking for narrow streets...hardly beyond us.
It turns out even the useless ones had to be borrowed from fricking surrey.

2500 tower blocks and only 18 with sprinklers.

We need water jets that can reach the top of the towers, they all need fitting with fireproof external escape routes.

That's what we need ..now tell me why we can't afford it.

 

[Tom]

That's what we need ..now tell me why we can't afford it.

Fucking hell you are a lost cause. Completely bereft of intellect or reason. Fuckoff back to your Daily Mail, cunt.

 

[Raven]

Being a supposed plumber and so on (lol) you will understand the hydraulic pressure required for a 300ft jet of of water, or the weight of the pump units to push that sort of volume up a 2-300 foot hose...I would guess?

Yes sure, its affordable, if each fire brigade ran on an SNP budget where reality doesn't really matter all that much.

 

[caLLous]

they all need fitting with fireproof external escape routes.

Soooo, how's a 250 foot fire escape going to work when it's the outside of the building that's on fire? You can't just make something "fireproof" when it's literally engulfed in flames.

 

[Shagrat]

Soooo, how's a 250 foot fire escape going to work when it's the outside of the building that's on fire? You can't just make something "fireproof" when it's literally engulfed in flames.

helter skelter.

as long as there are enough of those mats at the top its covered, and I bet you can get those on the cheap

 

[Raven]

I know it's the fail....but read it.

London fire chiefs even had to borrow engines from Surrey | Daily Mail Online

Missed this, ofc they borrowed units from Surrey, that is how it works for disasters and out of the ordinary events. They aren't going to have 100 fire engines at every station, sat on the drive (with 100 crews) are they?

They probably didn't send all the London crews either, they still have to maintain cover even when something like this happens.

 

[Job]

Fucking hell you are a lost cause. Completely bereft of intellect or reason. Fuckoff back to your Daily Mail, cunt.

Jesus shit..youre exactly the kind of person in government that these people want to hang..its too difficult and expensive..so buy some fucking asbestos underoants.