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[Lamp]

I won £30 on the National Lottery.
My biggest win ever.


That's.....that's......60 pigs in blankets !

 

[Raven]

 

[Scouse]

Lol Davey:

Lib Dems consider ditching opposition to ID cards

Leader Sir Ed Davey - who helped block Labour's last attempt to bring in ID cards - says "times have changed".

www.bbc.co.uk

Some at the meeting cited Estonia as an example of a country where digital identity has been used to allow citizens to access government and some private services such as medical records, voting and banking.

Wow. I didn't know I couldn't already vote, access government services such as the NHS, use my own medical records, or access bank accounts without a digital ID card.

How the fuck have I been able to live until now?

Funny that Labour are full-steam-ahead on it, despite it not being on their manifesto.

 

[Gwadien]

Lol Davey:

Lib Dems consider ditching opposition to ID cards

Leader Sir Ed Davey - who helped block Labour's last attempt to bring in ID cards - says "times have changed".

www.bbc.co.uk

Wow. I didn't know I couldn't already vote, access government services such as the NHS, use my own medical records, or access bank accounts without a digital ID card.

How the fuck have I been able to live until now?

Funny that Labour are full-steam-ahead on it, despite it not being on their manifesto.

I think the point is that it's far more effecient.

 

[Scouse]

I think the point is that it's far more effecient.

Far more efficient than NOT needing one?

Or far more efficient at making us a "papers please" society?

It was tried under the Blair government and given short shrift for multiple reasons (including privacy and authoritarian overreach). But it's nice to know that if you can't prove your identity, you might not get treated at hospital.

I guess I shouldn't write it here because - you know, we don't have free speech - but I'm pretty sure you can guess what I hope happens to Starmer.

He knew that if it was a manifesto committment a lot less people would have voted for him. Maybe he should get on with delivering his actual manifesto. Animal welfare reform anyone?

 

[Gwadien]

Far more efficient than NOT needing one?

Or far more efficient at making us a "papers please" society?

It was tried under the Blair government and given short shrift for multiple reasons (including privacy and authoritarian overreach). But it's nice to know that if you can't prove your identity, you might not get treated at hospital.

I guess I shouldn't write it here because - you know, we don't have free speech - but I'm pretty sure you can guess what I hope happens to Starmer.

He knew that if it was a manifesto committment a lot less people would have voted for him. Maybe he should get on with delivering his actual manifesto. Animal welfare reform anyone?

No as in it will make processes quicker therefore more effecient and cheaper.

 

[Tom]

I was once dead set against ID cards, but tbh for simply accessing government services it does seem like a good system might be more efficient than what we currently have. The world has moved on and perhaps a well-designed system might reduce fraud.

Estonia has had an electronic ID card for a long time and apparently it works well.

 

[Scouse]

No as in it will make processes quicker therefore more effecient and cheaper.

What processes? How?

• You get admitted to the NHS, adding an ID card check will make it slower and more expensive.
• You go to a doctor, they take your postcode / name so they can match to your records. It works. Adding an additional digital ID check will be expensive to roll out.
• I've got a government gateway account. It's tied to my email and has 2FA. How will having a digital ID make this "better"? How will having to adapt all government websites to this will be expensive to roll out.
• You go to a bank, you get ID's anyway - banks will not rely on pure ID cards as single forms of ID are inherently less secure, so they like multiple IDs - which they currently use under Know Your Customer legislation. (I work with teams that design and roll out ID checks at banks).

How will any of this make us safer or more secure? The argument was won in the early 2000's - digital IDs are more dangerous for a population, especially when they ID us wrong, which they will.

Estonia has had an electronic ID card for a long time and apparently it works well.

• Estobua had a cyber vulnerability in their ID cards in 2017 that meand their whole country's ID cards needed to be replaced.
• There was a hack in 2021 where 300,000 citizens ID photos were stolen.
• The new cards post this latest hack have a problem with systems that are older
• When there are infrastructure problems many public and private services (banking, healthcare, etc.) are disrupted, slowed or access is denied while fixes are put in place.

I know @Gwadien isnt even remotely tech-savvy, but this isn't the fucking peachy utopia that we're being sold is it.


Estonia, on the other hand, had a Cyber breach of their cards which meant that the entire country's ID cards had to be fucking replaced.

Meanwhile, it's free not to implement any of these problems in the UK - with ID systems that are already working and demonstrably more safe.

 

[Gwadien]

lol, again.

 

[Scouse]

lol, again.

Is that it? That the extent of your intellectual objection / reposite to the real issues that Estonia have experienced - not theoretical risks, but actual issues that have affected the lives of Estonians.

You want that here? Why? Justify it.

 

[Lamp]

Mrs Lamp: Where are you off to ?
Me: Tesco. I'm getting 6 packs of pigs in blankets
Mrs L: No you're not !
Me: But...but....you've got like 60 pairs of bloody heels, and I don't saying anything
Mrs L (rolling up her sleeves. She is smiling. Not good) Do we have to have this conversation again (advancing)
Me: Nope ! You're right. My bad.

 

[Gwadien]

Is that it? That the extent of your intellectual objection / reposite to the real issues that Estonia have experienced - not theoretical risks, but actual issues that have affected the lives of Estonians.

You want that here? Why? Justify it.

The patronising manner of your deba- sorry, lecture is somewhat zzz

I find it very strange you can't comprehend that.

 

[Deebs]

Isn't my passport my identity card?

 

[Scouse]

The patronising manner of your deba- sorry, lecture is somewhat zzz

I find it very strange you can't comprehend that.

It's factual, it's easy to read. That's what matters.

Lots of people find facts intimidating, and rather than respond, accuse the person giving them that information of being patronising. I hope you don't treat the students you have that are cleverer than you in that fashion.

Care to answer any of the points?

 

[Embattle]

Gimme.

 

[Scouse]

Isn't my passport my identity card?

Sort of.

It's just that they want you to show your passport when you go to hospital, or when you go to the doctors, or have to carry it on you at all times to prove that you belong in this country.

If you don't have your papers you're a criminal, you see.

 

[Deebs]

Sort of.

It's just that they want you to show your passport when you go to hospital, or when you go to the doctors, or have to carry it on you at all times to prove that you belong in this country.

If you don't have your papers you're a criminal, you see.

Yeh fuck that, I have many forms of ID and at least 2 of them have an image attached to them (passport, driving license). With the number of CCTV everywhere I am certain my image is recorded many times per week and run through some recognition database.

 

[Embattle]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diBS0VfVcbs

 

[Scouse]

‘Kafkaesque’: teacher in Birmingham fights to clear his name after identity fraud

Michael Bene is repaying £763 ‘advance’ despite evidence he did not attend face-to-face verification interview

www.theguardian.com

This could be so much worse.

 

[Ormorof]

‘Kafkaesque’: teacher in Birmingham fights to clear his name after identity fraud

Michael Bene is repaying £763 ‘advance’ despite evidence he did not attend face-to-face verification interview

www.theguardian.com

This could be so much worse.

Would it?

With your ID tied to 2FA it should in theory be much harder to do this. Much more secure than a utility bill with your name on it (on paper lol)

 

[Scouse]

Would it?

With your ID tied to 2FA it should in theory be much harder to do this. Much more secure than a utility bill with your name on it (on paper lol)

For a single source of ID, yes. It's slightly harder to do initially - but our Estonian friends have found to their detriment that their data isn't secure.

The golden standard is actually much messier. It's much, and by much I mean significantly, better to have a variety of sources of relatively trustworthy IDs than a single one people see as "unimpeachable".

It's harder to hack, it's harder to compromise all the sources, the entirity of the body of evidence that makes up a person's identification is much more trustworthy as a result. And they take many forms - some paper, some knowledge of activities that are checked, some photographic, etc. etc. And that is much more secure, much less compromisable than a single digital ID.

In the case of the unfortunate guy in the story above - a digital ID would make his case even harder to fix. The higher the trust level of the ID (as I mentioned this would be seen as unimpeachable) the harder it becomes to rectify the issues. And make no mistake, these issues are very real indeed. Potentially life altering issues.


This argument is like Brexit. It was "done" in the early 2000's but some wankers would never let it go and they've eventually got their way. It's been re-opened by a dishonest Labour party that deliberately left it off it's manifesto as they know it's a vote-loser. So we have to go through the whole rigamarole again. And it'll probably go through this time.

Despite actual evidence of Labour's example country having an utter shitshow of a digital ID problems (theft, compromise, interoperability problems, denial of service) - Estonia is being shown as a "success" - when quite palpably it's a story that should alarm us all.

But Labour's goal is more long term and authoritarian. One goal is want an "unimpeachable" digital ID that eventually they'll tie into access to the Web and de-anonymise all interaction with it. It's a deeply dystopian idea which they've been acting hand-in-hand with their multi-decade assault on cryptography. It's the fundamental bedrock upon which they can build ultimate control and knowledge over everything we do - online, and off.

Of course they say they won't do that - but then the terrorism legislation was for terrorists until the next time Labour got in.

Regardless - the man in the story - if we had digital ID, he'd be utterly, utterly, f00ked.

 

[Embattle]

One ID to rule them all

 

[Scouse]

I mean, yep. That's why it'll probably go through. Most of the population works on soundbites.

 

[Ormorof]

I've lived with digital ID for the last ~15 years it is wildly simpler to do things online, each bank runs its own system so its not a single point of failure, most people have multiple bank accounts anyway as its relatively simple to setup. real ID like passport or driving license is still required for things in person where you need to identify yourself, you can get an ID card if you like but it's not mandatory (but its cheap and convenient since you can leave your passport at home)

To be able to hijack it the person would need a fake official id, that is good enough to fool someone who would then reset my bank ID, this would also me by email, sms, and in app if I have it installed on my phone.

I work in Fintech and also deal with KYC, account takeovers, fraud, and identity theft is much rarer where digital ID is prominent, vs countries that rely on selfies or bank statements. Especially now with AI those are so easy to forge.


Its not perfect and it does still happen, but it certainly seems a great deal more secure than system I lived with in UK & Ireland

 

[Scouse]

We'll ignore all the really important long-term risks I've stated because I'm genuinely interested:

real ID like passport or driving license is still required for things in person where you need to identify yourself

What sort of places do you have to produce ID? What sort of situations?

Interested - because I suspect that there's a broader swathe of situations where you could be asked for ID than in the UK as it is currently.

 

[Deebs]

One ID to rule them all

Lord of the IDs trilogy coming soon

 

[Ormorof]

We'll ignore all the really important long-term risks I've stated because I'm genuinely interested:

What sort of places do you have to produce ID? What sort of situations?

Interested - because I suspect that there's a broader swathe of situations where you could be asked for ID than in the UK as it is currently.

Mostly the same, a visit to doctors scan the barcode on id or kela card (kela card similar to national insurance card)

If you don't have the card give them ID number. If they require you to pay something or you want to get any data other than your current visit they will ask for ID

Usually if you book the appointment online you will sign in with your digital ID. Taking actions that are sensitive require a step up authentication, so for example I can login to doctors site, but to book the appointment I need to input a pin in bank app also.

This same app based auth is even used if you try to do stuff over the phone to make sure you are authorised to do stuff.

Biggest (and I suspect the one peeps in UK would like the least) is showing ID to vote. Other than that its mostly if a cashier thinks I look under 30 (rare 😀) or the automation tells them its time to show ID

Interestingly its implemented quite differently across the Nordics even if principle is the same. In Finland its run by the banks, so its distributed, which makes adding new ones a pain as you have to go through hundreds of integrations. In Denmark its all via MitID and is a 3rd party company paid by the govt so all central, integrations are easy but risky as you said.

 

[legowizardguy]

My friends buy game keys from "CD Keys" now rebranded to "Loaded" are they legit? I have heard of them before but I am aware they are "grey market" so I am skeptical. Does anyone here use them or have any experience with them?

 

[Zarjazz]

My friends buy game keys from "CD Keys" now rebranded to "Loaded" are they legit? I have heard of them before but I am aware they are "grey market" so I am skeptical. Does anyone here use them or have any experience with them?

They are legit in that the keys work, compared to some other grey market sites they aren't really known for reselling stolen or fraudulently obtained keys though using them may break some publishers ToS. However like all such sites there is also no guarantee about how much, if any, of the money the developers who created the game will actually receive from the sale. So if that matters to you just be aware.

 

[legowizardguy]

They are legit in that the keys work, compared to some other grey market sites they aren't really known for reselling stolen or fraudulently obtained keys though using them may break some publishers ToS. However like all such sites there is also no guarantee about how much, if any, of the money the developers who created the game will actually receive from the sale. So if that matters to you just be aware.

Deebs reccomended me cdjs keys a few years back for Windows licenses not that I ever used them but he said he has been doing it for years whats ur advice