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[Scouse]

Scouse needs to be told what to think, that's why he reads the Guardian.

Dunno why you think I'm a Guardian reader. I've never said that I was.

I might start tho. As a self-confessed Sun-reader you seem to hate them so much that they must be doing something right.

 

[Job]

Bit confusing at first to see what they are actually doing..but this is an artificial window that exactly mimics the light from the sky using led and fools people they are looking up into a blue sky...pretty cool
http://weburbanist.com/2015/02/17/new-artificial-lighting-tricks-human-brain-into-seeing-sunlight/

 

[Scouse]

Yeah, saw that. Wish they had one in the office. Suspect only millionaires will be able to afford it tho.

 

[Bodhi]

You do like that phrase don't you.

I kind of read your use of "right on" to mean "people who, whilst they may sometimes be misguided, care about more than just themselves".

But maybe that's optimistic of me. Maybe you mean "weak minded twats" because they think that way

It's more aimed at the sort who get on their high horses without checking that their own affairs are in order. Channel 4 and the Guardian are experts at this...

 

[Scouse]

It's more aimed at the sort who get on their high horses without checking that their own affairs are in order.

Doing that myself right now. Paying full tax, as always. As a small business owner I hate doing the books, but needs must and legal requirements etc.

Dunno why you'd say the Guardian has affairs that aren't in order - it's run from an independent trust fund that was set up a long time ago to ensure it's own impartiality IIRC. Can't speak to Channel 4 - but I'm assuming that if they were doing something dodgy then everyone'd be jumping on them.

Nah. Thanks for your argument, but I think my initial assessment was more likely to be closer to the mark.

 

[old.Tohtori]

´
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fgkaodoY0s


In case someone is interested in such.

 

[BloodOmen]

 

[Bodhi]

Doing that myself right now. Paying full tax, as always. As a small business owner I hate doing the books, but needs must and legal requirements etc.

Dunno why you'd say the Guardian has affairs that aren't in order - it's run from an independent trust fund that was set up a long time ago to ensure it's own impartiality IIRC. Can't speak to Channel 4 - but I'm assuming that if they were doing something dodgy then everyone'd be jumping on them.

Nah. Thanks for your argument, but I think my initial assessment was more likely to be closer to the mark.

I was more commenting on the Guardian's love of a tax avoidance story, when Guardian Media Group is based out of Luxembourg, paying about 0.75% tax iirc. Not that I have an issue with them doing that, but I do have an issue with them preaching at how evil Starbucks etc are, when they do the same. A metaphor involving them tthrowing stones comes to mind.

I also have an issue with the sneering superiority complex right on folks specialise in, but your posts have demonstrated that much better than my jet lagged brain ever could

 

[mooSe_]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-31519875

 

[caLLous]

Very cool stuff...



...also...

 

[Scouse]

I also have an issue with the sneering superiority complex right on folks specialise in

I find that those accusations are usually made by adults who are lashing out because they feel guilty when their selfishness is pointed out.

A bit like kids that don't love it when you point out their wrong-ness can get stroppy.

 

[caLLous]

Also this...

 

[Raven]

Or maybe we don't appreciate being told what to do by someone who A, has no business telling people what to do or think and B, doesn't even follow their own convictions anyway.

 

[mooSe_]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v2B71RUaqQ

 

[old.Tohtori]

Or maybe we don't appreciate being told what to do by someone who A, has no business telling people what to do or think and B, doesn't even follow their own convictions anyway.

Only persons in the world who have business telling us what to do are A: our bosses B: the government in some situations and when younger C: our parents.

They can, ofcoiurse, to their hearts content but ignoring them is so much easier when you know them.

 

[Gwadien]

No idea if this has been spoken about, but referring to the Tories plans to make young people to do community service to get their dole money.

Don't you think this could be a recipe for disaster?

I mean, alot of graduates leave university and struggle to find work straight away (Sure some of these are mickey-mouse courses, but some are genuine courses.)

Hypothetically speaking, if I leave University and I can't find work (For what ever reason) and I'm told to do community service, I'll emigrate.

Even if they say 'oh this doesn't apply to graduates' I think i'd still emigrate.

 

[Raven]

I actually think its a good idea (partly) young people need work experience, it is something an employer needs to see.

Person A, degree and work experience
Person B, degree and not worked a day in their life.

...fairly easy choice

Even for non-graduate work an employer would rather take someone on that has worked before over those that have not (generally speaking)

Also remember that degrees are 10 a penny these days and while a degree is a good thing, don't think it automatically gives you 30k and a car, especially if it is a not particularly useful degree.

Even a non specific graduate has to start somewhere, whether its the office tea boy or stacking shelves in Tesco.

and to be fair, if I was ever out of work I would probably end up doing some sort of community work anyway because it can look good on your CV and can also be a good experience and not working must be mind numbingly boring.

I know my degree is basically useless when I finish (History) but I may be able to use it on top of my work experience to maybe work somewhere with a historical angle, maybe not much of a pay rise, if any. As a 20 year old graduate and no work experience I can't think of anything that would have practical use for a history degree on its own except maybe a tour guide.

 

[Moriath]

I too think its a good idea to get people to do voluntary work for their benefits. Helps the communities, gets them off their butts and used to a work environment and gives the tax payer some benefit for the free money that are given.

 

[Moriath]

I actually think its a good idea (partly) young people need work experience, it is something an employer needs to see.

Person A, degree and work experience
Person B, degree and not worked a day in their life.

...fairly easy choice

Even for non-graduate work an employer would rather take someone on that has worked before over those that have not (generally speaking)

Also remember that degrees are 10 a penny these days and while a degree is a good thing, don't think it automatically gives you 30k and a car, especially if it is a not particularly useful degree.

Even a non specific graduate has to start somewhere, whether its the office tea boy or stacking shelves in Tesco.

and to be fair, if I was ever out of work I would probably end up doing some sort of community work anyway because it can look good on your CV and can also be a good experience and not working must be mind numbingly boring.

I know my degree is basically useless when I finish (History) but I may be able to use it on top of my work experience to maybe work somewhere with a historical angle, maybe not much of a pay rise, if any. As a 20 year old graduate and no work experience I can't think of anything that would have practical use for a history degree on its own except maybe a tour guide.

Museum curator or history teacher hehe

 

[Scouse]

Or maybe we don't appreciate being told what to do by someone who A, has no business telling people what to do or think and B, doesn't even follow their own convictions anyway.

1) It's called a forum - where you debate things.

2) I do. You're being disingenuous. Explained multiple times that I never avoid tax - but that I consider standard company tax regime a form of tax avoidance. Never mind what the big multinationals do with offshoring profits.

You're just ignoring those facts so you don't have to have an adult conversation.

 

[Raven]

Your idea of debating is to basically present some mind numbingly boring hour long video that nobody is ever going to watch and refusing to discus anything until they have. Most people just don't care enough to spend days researching some anal point.

Pulling the filibuster card is not debating.

 

[Scouse]

1) I watched it and found it interesting.
2) it wan't an anal point but something fundamental to our society.
3) Maybe you're just not up to complex argument.
4) Why not call me a tax avoider again despite what I posted (again) above?

 

[Raven]

Maybe people just don't care why the Greeks don't like paying taxes. Just point that they do is enough.

Some random socialist propaganda isn't going to change that, you might as well dig up Bob Crow and ask him what he thinks about button pushers on the tube and their working hours.

Its a fair point that there is not point discussing tax avoidance and how morally wrong it is with a tax dodger though. The fact that you do a couple of thousand and other people do a couple of mil is meaningless, its still the same thing.

 

[Moriath]

1) I watched it and found it interesting.
2) it wan't an anal point but something fundamental to our society.
3) Maybe you're just not up to complex argument.
4) Why not call me a tax avoider again despite what I posted (again) above?

It was a bit arrogant to say if you cba to watch this then it's not worth discussing game subject with you.

All people who work for themselves have companies registered and get paid through them so they can work the tax system. It's not a new thing. It's not illegal. It just makes sense if you can do it to maximise your earnings.

If the government wanted to they would close the rules to allow this. But they don't. So it's not like it's a big secret or anything. Lol

 

[old.Tohtori]

wan't an anal point

Yeah that needs to be taken out of context as a quote.

 

[Raven]

Bollocks, its a single person doing a normal job via a registered company to avoid PAYE, its done specifically to avoid tax.

In the same way someone living abroad (say Monaco) avoids tax.

Perfectly legal but morally repugnant.

 

[Scouse]

Maybe people just don't care why the Greeks don't like paying taxes. Just point that they do is enough.

If you'd bothered to watch it, you'd understand it's nothing to do with that. And I'd never claimed it was.

Guess it boils down to the inability to sustain complex argument.

Its a fair point that there is not point discussing tax avoidance and how morally wrong it is with a tax dodger though.

And again. I'll just call you a cunt and be done with it eh?

It was a bit arrogant to say if you cba to watch this then it's not worth discussing game subject with you

It is if the subject I was trying to discuss was the subject covered in the video.

It's shown by Raven responding like he knows even remotely what I'm on about - but getting it totally wrong.

"I want to talk about apples".
"Fucking you - and you always harping on about communism".
"No, Raven. Here, have a look at this really interesting video about apple production"
"Why should I watch that? It's all about communism anyway. I know all I ever need to know about commies".
"Seriously. It's not about communism. It's about apples, and how tasty they are."
"Fuck you, you commie tax dodger"
"I don't dodge tax Raven, for the twelvtieth time. I am interested in talking about apples."
"Fucking tax dodger"
"Ah, I'll call you a cunt because I'm angry now - and say you're not capable of serious discourse"

Moriath - "saying he's not capable of serious discourse is a bit shit and arrogant"....

"....WELL.... HE CLEARLY ISN'T"

 

[Scouse]

Bollocks, its a single person doing a normal job via a registered company to avoid PAYE, its done specifically to avoid tax.

Not true.

Companies like to hire on a short-term basis. They don't want to pay holiday pay, they don't want to pay sick pay, they don't want to pay pensions, they don't want to train people, they don't want people whining about their kids. And it makes their share price look good.

So - instead of getting IBM in at £2000+/day - they can hire a smaller independent for six months at a vastly reduced rate. I.E. Me.


For that I take on all of the obligations and responsibilities and all of the risk - like being rung up tonight and told that they don't want me in tomorrow, if they should so desire. Or if I injure myself and cannot work then I lose my income.

I've got two clients on the go at the moment (and a third in the pipeline). A bit like anyone who runs a service company. The only difference is that I don't want to hire people at salary and skim all their money off them. I'm just not interested.



Now, I could go and work for IBM. Like an ex-contractor mate of mine did. He worked for IBM and they sent him back to the company he used to contract at - at six times the rate he was charging - and at less money than he was contracting for. Yes, he got sick pay and pension, but when that piece of work is up he gets three months notice and unless IBM can find him another piece of work he's out on his ear.

For that the client pays six times the rate, he gets less money, and IBM shareholders are raking in the profits.


Of course, you'd call it tax-dodging. You've probably got contractors that you work with that are earning way more than you. But the difference between them and you is that they've got the balls to take a risk and confidence in their own skills. And you're jealous, is all.

I see it in a lot of permies. "Mwahhh, he earns more than me!!!". Yeah, but you (theoretically) know you've got a job in 6 months time. You know if you're ill you'll get paid. You get the benefit of ongoing development paid for by the company, not by yourself. You know that if you're shit at your job they have to try to find a solution rather than sack you. If you ask for a shorter working week to look after your kids they have to consider it.

You wouldn't call a shopkeeper a tax dodger. So why would you call someone who works in the service sector a tax dodger?

Jealousy and a lack of balls.

 

[Moriath]

Bollocks, its a single person doing a normal job via a registered company to avoid PAYE, its done specifically to avoid tax.

In the same way someone living abroad (say Monaco) avoids tax.

Perfectly legal but morally repugnant.

thats your opinion. But it's not a secret and the tax people and the government know all about it. So if they didn't want it to happen they could stop it. Also don't you still pay tax on the money you take out of the company to live on etc anyway.

 

[Scouse]

thats your opinion. But it's not a secret and the tax people and the government know all about it. So if they didn't want it to happen they could stop it. Also don't you still pay tax on the money you take out of the company to live on etc anyway.

You do. You pay tax like any small business owner.

VAT registered. PAYE, NI, corporation tax etc.

And there aren't the jobs - companies want someone in to do "a project". Perform "a service". Are they supposed to employ someone on a permanent basis for a 6 month piece of work? Nah - they get a small business in with a specific skillset until that project is done.