The invasion of Normandy

[Catsby]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3780381.stm

Catsby hopes you were able to see the documentary on BBC1 just now. Catsby was moved deeply, and hopes that he can appreciate the humility of the veterans, and also appreciate the stability of the world he was born to.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2/

 

[SoWat]

It was a great docu-drama.

I've just finished reading Stephem Amrose's 'D-Day' book. It's taken from the oral history archives of participants, and is both appalling and humbling at the same time.

 

[Ukle]

It was very impressive it hit the exact right tone for me. Not dramatic but factual but telling it in a way that drew you in. Although it got off to a slow start...

Only thing that got me about this D-day weekend was the veiled (and not so veiled) references to Iraq in most of the programming

 

[Sigurd]

The US celebrates the 60th anniversary of victory over the Nazis by sending their very own Nazi

 

[Cdr]

Yeah, lets NOT turn this into an anti-US / anti-bush thread pls.

Let us just remember the people of all nations who died so we can live.

 

[Catsby]

The US celebrates the 60th anniversary of victory over the Nazis by sending their very own Nazi

Catby is ashamed by such hijacking of a thread.

Catsby asks if nothing is sacred?


Catsby feels that Sigurd has answered that nothing is, and that the snide campaign of slighting the Americans shall forever plague any worthy thread. Catsby hopes that he will not forget that if it were not for the intervention of the Americans on European soil, Britain would be a very different place than it is now.

 

[Athena]

I spent some time in Normandy last year and visited Omaha, Utah and Gold beaches.
However the day I went to American Cemetry and Memorial was extremely moving.

http://www.abmc.gov/no.htm

I think anyone reading this who's been there will understand what I'm talking about.

 

[Sigurd]

Catby is ashamed by such hijacking of a thread.

Catsby asks if nothing is sacred?


Catsby feels that Sigurd has answered that nothing is, and that the snide campaign of slighting the Americans shall forever plague any worthy thread. Catsby hopes that he will not forget that if it were not for the intervention of the Americans on European soil, Britain would be a very different place than it is now.

Sigurd points out Britain had already beaten the Nazis back before america bothered to turn up... nothing against those who died but the politicians leading them? Our.. cousins have a lot to answer for, both then and now.

 

[Catsby]

Sigurd points out Britain had already beaten the Nazis back before america bothered to turn up... nothing against those who died but the politicians leading them? Our.. cousins have a lot to answer for, both then and now.

Catsby is agahst at Sigurd's lack of respect.

 

[Sigurd]

How is it lack of respect? Do we hold rememberance services for all the kids america has napalmed? Do we hold them for the mothers raped by american soldiers, the cities wiped off the dust by american bombers? I respect people who died for their country, but I hate america and everything it stands for... I wasn't even going to get into it in this thread, but merely point out the irony of their "president" being at that service... but there we go.

 

[Gengi]

Sigurd must get with the program, to hate all things American is to hate much which is good about the world in which Sigurd lives. Torquemada does not make a religion, Adolf Hitler does not define a race, sweeping generalisations are for the relatively weak minded, or the genuinely insane with power, don't wear spectacles when ol' Pol is about.

Lots of people died, more importantly lots of people turned up and ran forward through the guns and the sea to a beach where they just saw their freinds die so that we could live in a relatively free world. The politicians on show today are not terribly important other than as symbols for those who died. It is a cliche that they died so we could live free, but like a lot of cliches' it is true.

later

 

[Ukle]

The thing is all the main empire of a time have committed atrocities. British troops in many conflicts have not exactly done themselves proud same as the French and the Roman. The only difference with the Americans is that there are Cameras to record all the atrocities...

Humans are humans... people seem to think that all because we have advanced technologically that we forget the urges that unbalance what we call civilization. It is human nature to prove that you are the stronger... whether it be on the battlefield, the football pitch, work or at school. It is that which is the common factor behind all atrocities in war and as long as there is war there will be atroctities as we are only human as we are always trying to prove that we are more powerful than each other.

 

[Sigurd]

Sigurd must get with the program, to hate all things American is to hate much which is good about the world in which Sigurd lives. Torquemada does not make a religion, Adolf Hitler does not define a race, sweeping generalisations are for the relatively weak minded, or the genuinely insane with power, don't wear spectacles when ol' Pol is about.

Lots of people died, more importantly lots of people turned up and ran forward through the guns and the sea to a beach where they just saw their freinds die so that we could live in a relatively free world. The politicians on show today are not terribly important other than as symbols for those who died. It is a cliche that they died so we could live free, but like a lot of cliches' it is true.

later

Yes, we all know there are ...some... sane americans, I just haven't met one yet. That country is the biggest threat to the future of humanity.

 

[Whipped]

No, that's peas

 

[Panda On Smack]

can we stop talking about ourselves from a 3rd person perspective please

thanks!

 

[ScoobyDoo{KEA}]

can we stop talking about ourselves from a 3rd person perspective please

thanks!

erm!!!!!!

 

[dysfunction]

Yes, we all know there are ...some... sane americans, I just haven't met one yet. That country is the biggest threat to the future of humanity.

Then you have not travelled enough.

The USA is not the biggest threat to humanity. Its intolerance that people have with other cultures and religeons just like you have demonstrated.

The US lost a lot of people on D-day along with many other countries and they all deserve recognition for that fact....you dont have to tarnish the day with other political issues...

 

[Sigurd]

Love that. If you can't recognize them as a threat, you're pretty much blind to the truth. Obviously someone who recognizes a threat is a worse threat themselves... to those in the wrong in the first place - i.e facists like the americans and their friends...

 

[caLLous]

Sigurd, fuck off you obnoxious twat. You made an out-of-line (in the context of this thread) comment early on (maybe you thought you were being funny), it was received badly so then you try to justify your point, only to dig yourself deeper into this hole you seem to love so much.

Have some goddamn respect.

 

[Insane]

I second caLLous' remark.

your just becoming the troll Sigurd, nobody agrees with your view especially not when people are remembering the D-Day landings, and the many allied soldiers who died on those days in particular.

if you do want to bash americans, please fuck off and do it elsewhere... its like a broken record and it's been shown that most people here get irritated when someone decides to get out the stick to wave it everywhere.

 

[Stazbumpa]

I 3rd that remark. America didn't save Britain from Hitler, but they did save Europe and PAY for the rebuild too.
The US might not get everything right, but that does not make them evil and they do a hell of a lot more good than most other nations put together.

Keep your uneducated, intolerant and ridiculously stupid remarks to yourself because everyone here is getting the impression that you're a twat.
I suggest you read a history book as well mate, or at least look at the fucking pictures so you have SOME clue as to what actually happens in the world.

Back OT.

How the hell the Americans got off Omaha beach I will never know, they must've fought like fucking tigers. Thank god those British, American and Canadian men were alive when they were because if the balloon went up again today, I doubt that anyone would have the stomach to stand and fight.
They were a different breed, a better breed I believe. They didn't whinge or complain or hide behind dubious moral or political objections.

They faced death, knew it, but went and did their duty anyway.
Real courage, which most of us don't have now.

 

[leggy]

How the hell the Americans got off Omaha beach I will never know, they must've fought like fucking tigers. Thank god those British, American and Canadian men were alive when they were because if the balloon went up again today, I doubt that anyone would have the stomach to stand and fight.
They were a different breed, a better breed I believe. They didn't whinge or complain or hide behind dubious moral or political objections.

They faced death, knew it, but went and did their duty anyway.
Real courage, which most of us don't have now.

I will tell you again: "you are my hero"

I couldn't agree more.

 

[old.Tohtori]

When we respect the ones who died for their country, do we include the nazis?

Just curious on peoples opinion on that. Are the soldier of one side better then the other?

Personally, life is a life.

 

[Stazbumpa]

Good question. Nice to think of the Nazi's as an entirely evil bunch of people and that everyone was in on it. Not strictly true, but I would say that the majority were, although a lot of Germans hated Hitler and the way Germany was going from the outset. Not sure were I sit on this one now you mention it.

However, Germany was the aggressor, we were liberating Europe, so I suppose one way of looking at it would be to ask should we, the liberators and the liberated, remember German soldiers as we remember our own when the Germans were an occupying army that shouldn't have been in Normandy anyway?

Not entirely fair I'll agree, but if Germany hadn't allowed Hitler into power in the first place then WW2 and D-Day need never have happened. Let us remember and celebrate our soldiers and let Germany mourn their dead in their own way, because at heart Germany's soldiers died for nothing.

 

[old.Tohtori]

because at heart Germany's soldiers died for nothing.

Only thing i'll comment on, otherwise it's your opinion but...

In war, there's noone who died for something. It's always for nothing.

 

[Vae]

Only thing i'll comment on, otherwise it's your opinion but...

In war, there's noone who died for something. It's always for nothing.

I would disagree with this - I think that the pilots in the Battle of Britain died to save Britain from occupation. That the people who died liberating Europe died to restore freedom/freewill to people who would otherwise have lost that freedom or been killed e.g. think about what would have happened to the British Jews if Britain had been conquered. I'm sure most people would agree (especially those who did die).

Ultimately I accept that what the people died for is insignificant in the course of history but it isn't to the people at the time who had their lives saved etc

 

[Stazbumpa]

In war, there's noone who died for something. It's always for nothing.

But that is over simplifying things a bit. Germany's soldiers fought for a homicidal self obsessed dictator (bit like the Russians actually, but they were defending their country) who wanted control of Europe and eradication of any race that didnt fit in with his ideals. They fought as aggressors in a war that their country started for no good reason(s), although rhetoric at the time would have led them to believe otherwise.
That is dying for nothing in my book.

The Allied soldiers fought first as defenders and then as attackers in order to free Europe from Nazi rule and oppression. Not their own countries freedom, but other countries.
Is fighting in the defence of your nation and then for the freedom of your neighbours not something?

Hopefully I'm getting the wrong end of the stick, but your post seems to lean towards a non interventionist view, which in the case of WW2 is plain silly.
As food for though I will leave the following 2 quotes:

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.
The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873)

If a man has not found something for which he is willing to die, then he is not fit to live.

Martin Luther King

I like to think that the last quote can apply to people you love

 

[old.Tohtori]

Then, we can say, that the nazi soldiers(and the forced soldiers), didn't die for nothing. They strived to make a greater country. Heck, noone is saying that the ones dying in america against the native americans, when it was first conquered, died for nothing. I'm no colaberator, i really don't have any feelings towards nazis or their train of thought. They had a cool dress/armament style but that's it. I'm just looking at the flipside of the coin aswell.

EDIT: Written as Stazbumpa was writing.

 

[SoWat]

A little over-looked fact is that the Allies, apart from liberating Europe, also liberated the Germans. Sure, a goodly portion were whole-hearted Nazis, but a heck of a lot more were not.

 

[Wij]

Sigurd points out Britain had already beaten the Nazis back before america bothered to turn up... nothing against those who died but the politicians leading them? Our.. cousins have a lot to answer for, both then and now.

Twaddle - beaten the Nazis back ? All we had done is maintained air superiority over the channel so that Hitler decided not to bother invading England and concentrate on the USSR instead. If it hadn't been for all the help the USA had been giving us during that time, even before it formally entered the war, Hitler may well have made a different decision. The US leaders were helping us all the time. They just thought the people wouldn't support the US entering the war until Japan made the first strike for the Axis. If you think we could have done D-Day without the US then you are an idiot.

Britain may have shown a lot of courage but it was the combined might of the US and the USSR which eventually proved too much for the Axis to handle.

/edit: It's times like this you feel the need for Xane.