Politics The General Election 2015

[Mabs]

wastage? you mean selling off the post office for a fraction of its value ? selling off the only mainline that was making a profit ? yea its a waste of public money

 

[Gumbo]

It's not selling anything off. All it would do is limit the access that the NHS has to services it couldn't otherwise provide. Those companies currently making that provision would simply set a limit to the number of NHS referrals they take and focus more on the more profitable aspects of their business. The areas where they're allowed to make profit and not be penalised for it. Don't get this confused with the Post Office. Which incidentally was a bloody good move, it would have happened under a continuing labour government anyway and it means that the people who use it are paying for it now, otherwise it would have been a constant drain on the taxpayer.

I have no idea why Labour think that success and profit are dirty words.

Miliband said "The NHS will be the preferred provider. No company working with the NHS will be able to profit by cherry picking: rejecting patients with the more complex and expensive needs for their own advantage."

Except that's exactly what they'll do. Successful companies focus on their margin. They want to maximise their income and limit their outgoings. It's very very simple. By imposing a profit cap companies will want to hit it as efficiently as possible and then do no more. Why would they do more when they're then working purely for someone else? Almost no businesses are that altruistic.

I had little time for the last Labour administration, but at least they weren't simply stupid. They had some really bright people working for them, as well as idiots such as Balls and this Miliband. This lot are absolute feckless loons. I just hope the country can see that in 6 weeks time. I really really really wish that I had a more portable skillset. If Labour get a majority I would have left the country as soon as I could. As it stands I'm stuck here, but as a small business owner I am already making contingency plans.

This current Labour lot are so anti business, god knows why, that if they gain power I am almost bound to stop striving to grow my company and keep people employed, but instead adopt a hedgehog concept of laying people off, protecting what I have for myself and my family, and weather the next 5 years of them fucking things up again. It's sad for my employees, but I know I'm not alone.

 

[Gwadien]

I think I am pretty much settled on voting Tory now, I like that my standard of living has gone up under a Tory government, I like the fact I am paying less tax and I like the fact my job and the company I work for a secure an an industry that was basically dead thanks to Labour.

It would be a disaster if Labour got in, an absolute nightmare situation.

That being said...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...liband-the-battle-for-number-10-10138526.html

Thing is, you, and many other people that have worked into the middle classes on this forum are bitching about Labour saying they'd be a disaster, theyd be a disaster to you because they're a socialist party and therefore want to help out everyone.

The irony is, I'm sure you'd see the damage done if you were made redundant or if you had to leave work in order to look after a family member and the only people that helped you were charities.

Standard vote for current situation politics, makes the foundation of votes.

And sorry @Gumbo, but I can't accept your word as it being left propaganda when you're such a clear Tory and clearly very anti Labour.

That being said. I also wouldn't listen to a pro-labour voter defending Labour to the last.

 

[Raven]

We are talking about the NHS, and certainly not selling it off, nobody has said they want to do that.

Certain parts of it are viable for privatisation though. There is a metric fuckton of wastage within the NHS, as there is with any public service. This is simply down to the fact that they get money given to them with no real need to not waste it, regardless of performance they get more later on.

When I was in hospital a few weeks ago it was crazy, the amount of people doing absolutely nothing, there must have been at least one person per 2 patients in my 32 person ward and only 4 of them were nurses. As a people watcher I watched them wander around aimlessly some had clipboards, some didn't seem to be doing anything at all.

 

[Gumbo]

This was an interesting if a bit shouty post I just saw.

"The NHS should be entirely free of the private sector. Public sector workers should prepare the food, clean the wards, replace the light bulbs, make the light blubs, install the computers, manufacture the computers, write the computer operating system, write the computer software, design, research and build the MRI scanners and the X-Ray machines, and plant cotton fields so they can harvest the cotton to produce bandages.

Oh, come the glorious socialist revolution!"

It is interesting to try and think where the half baked idea stops. Or perhaps imagine the NHS which Labour has thrown more money at (Which the Tories incidentally have already said they will). Perhaps under Labour they want to buy a fuckton more MRI scanners to limit waiting times and make people travel less.

Great! Except once they've bought four, the company doesn't want to sell anymore because it will take them over their 5%. They'd much rather make a few for aerospace applications and oil research where they can get paid properly. Sorry NHS you'll have to wait until the next financial year. Oh and that maintenance contract for the machines we already sold you? Nah we don't want it, it'll take us over the Miliband cap you see so we'd rather save the money on maintenance staff, we'll just lay them off.

You see where this kind of half baked idea takes you.

Unless you're a marxist of course, like Ed's dad. Of course Marxism hasn't been tried anywhere and seen to be a blatant fail has it? Oh, actually....

 

[Raven]

Thing is, you, and many other people that have worked into the middle classes on this forum are bitching about Labour saying they'd be a disaster, theyd be a disaster to you because they're a socialist party and therefore want to help out everyone.

The irony is, I'm sure you'd see the damage done if you were made redundant or if you had to leave work in order to look after a family member and the only people that helped you were charities.

Standard vote for current situation politics, makes the foundation of votes.

And sorry @Gumbo, but I can't accept your word as it being left propaganda when you're such a clear Tory and clearly very anti Labour.

That being said. I also wouldn't listen to a pro-labour voter defending Labour to the last.

But why would I vote based on things that don't effect me? I couldn't give a crap about people who don't want to work or better themselves, fuck'um, they can live under a bridge for all I care.

I am the old cliché of leaving school with no GCSEs (I think my top mark was a D in art or something) and being in a job the Monday after leaving school, I have not been out of work for more than 2 weeks since, 20 years ago or something. Single parent family, my mum had fuck all too but she did her best for me and my sister. My sister, who also left school with nothing is now a teacher, she also did a degree in her own time.

I have bettered myself through self tuition, showing willingness at work, doing night classes and I am now studying for a degree in the evenings. I am now on a pretty good income, plenty of responsibility at work etc

People who say there is no work around are lying, simple as that, there is, stacks of it. People who say there are no opportunities can't be arsed to look for them. Everyone can do a degree if they wish, those on low income will not ever have to pay a penny to do it.

People who are unable to work due to illness or disability should be supported and they are. We could definitely do a hell of a lot more for the elderly and the disabled but to do so we need to be able to pay for it, money does not grow on trees. The only way a government can pay for it is by collecting that money via taxation and becoming more efficient and therefore cutting spending. Get people into work so that they can contribute to the economy. The only party that supports business is the Tories.

Labour are for the short term spank money up the wall game, fuck the deficit. Who cares, the Tories will fix it again in 5 years.
Tories are for the long term, get the money in first, then spend it.

 

[Gumbo]

Yes @Gwadien I am currently a Tory voter. But I vote as I see it at the time. I admit I'm probably voting for the least worst option and there's definitely things the Tories do which I don't agree with. However this current crop of Labour is so unbelievably bad. So lacking in intellect. That their election would be a VERY BAD THING for this country.

You simply can't have really really stupid people in charge. I have no doubt that there are some brighter people in the Labour party. The fact is though that they simply voted for the wrong brother. The unions voted for the one that they knew they could control. David would have been "Tough Enuss" to stand up to them. He would also have surrounded himself with the brighter people because he needn't have been afraid of them.

If Labour don't win (Please God) Then you can expect Harman to be elected leader within weeks, and most of the front bench team disposed of. David will then return into a fairly safe seat by by-election and immediately become deputy. Harman to step aside before 2020.

You never know I might even be a Labour voter by then.

 

[Gwadien]

Unless you're a marxist of course, like Ed's dad. Of course Marxism hasn't been tried anywhere and seen to be a blatant fail has it? Oh, actually....

Marxism hasn't been tried anywhere.

Marxism = Socialism, not communism

 

[Mabs]

But why would I vote based on things that don't effect me? I couldn't give a crap about people who don't want to work or better themselves, fuck'um, they can live under a bridge for all I care.

yea cos that sums up all the unemployed "wasters" , people who get hit by buses, or are born with learning difficulties
FUCK EM! right in the ear!

i really hope all these arrogant wankers end up relying on the system they spend their lives trying to destroy.

 

[Raven]

Marxism hasn't been tried anywhere.

Marxism = Socialism, not communism

Nope but most that went close to full bat shit crazy Marxism have failed, with the obvious exception of China...which isn't really communist or socialist at all any more, not under the surface.

 

[Raven]

yea cos that sums up all the unemployed "wasters" , people who get hit by buses, or are born with learning difficulties
FUCK EM! right in the ear!

i really hope all these arrogant wankers end up relying on the system they spend their lives trying to destroy.

If you care to actually read what I said, you will find I said that those unwilling to work should be fucked off, not those unable.

Or should I just give up work, you wont mind sending me half your pay packet each month though, yeah? After all it's only fair that I have shiny things too.

 

[Mabs]

If you care to actually read what I said, you will find I said that those unwilling to work should be fucked off, not those unable.

Or should I just give up work, you wont mind sending me half your pay packet each month though, yeah? After all it's only fair that I have shiny things too.

yea cos thats such a massive % of the..oh wait, its fucking negligible, and they are all under the same umbrella, so when you lash out at the tiny TINY FRACTION , you hurt the rest

but dont let the actual truth get in the way of your tory dream

 

[Raven]

Er, no not quite. I certainly don't group the disabled with the lazy. That's just you that has done that, quite disgusting really.

 

[Gwadien]

Society will advanced when a old man plants a seed for a tree that he'll never sit in the shade of.

 

[Mabs]

Er, no not quite. I certainly don't group the disabled with the lazy. That's just you that has done that, quite disgusting really.

nope cos the "lazy" and the "unable" all come under the same benefit category, but its ok, just keep going along with your tory fingers in your ears complaining about em its fine

 

[Mabs]

Society will advanced when a old man plants a seed for a tree that he'll never sit in the shade of.

Gwad-fucious ?

 

[Raven]

nope cos the "lazy" and the "unable" all come under the same benefit category, but its ok, just keep going along with your tory fingers in your ears complaining about em its fine

What? No they don't...

https://www.gov.uk/jobseekers-allowance/overview

https://www.gov.uk/dla-disability-living-allowance-benefit/what-youll-get

They may well come under the same expenditure but they certainly aren't the same thing. I actually think Job-seekers should be reduced and put towards disability allowance.

 

[Mabs]

The May 2013 estimates of fraud and error levels in the benefit system in Great Britain, published by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP), found that just:

• 0.7 per cent, or £1.2bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to fraud;
• 0.9 per cent, or £1.6bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to claimant error;
• 0.4 per cent, or £0.7bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to official error.

 

[Mabs]

They may well come under the same expenditure

thats what i said you cut one, you cut the other

 

[Raven]

No, you don't...

 

[Raven]

The May 2013 estimates of fraud and error levels in the benefit system in Great Britain, published by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP), found that just:

• 0.7 per cent, or £1.2bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to fraud;
• 0.9 per cent, or £1.6bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to claimant error;
• 0.4 per cent, or £0.7bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to official error.

I'm sorry, but what has that got to do with anything? Errors do not have anything to do with people claiming job-seekers when there is work available.

 

[Raven]

Society will advanced when a old man plants a seed for a tree that he'll never sit in the shade of.

To play on that, society will go backwards when everyone wants to sit under someone else's tree.

 

[Job]

3rd of the people are benefits that keep them going, not just to make life easier, the other third work for the government and the last third actually make the money, everything comes from them..they make the wealth so the government can pay their workers and get the tax back off them..to etc.
Only the private sector taxes actually pay for everything.
The Tories have a tendency to court the rich and boost their earnings...surely you can see why.

 

[Ormorof]

i dont think "lazy doleys" are the biggest issue with the jobseekers allowance, i think the biggest problem is that it reduces mobility, the system seems actively designed to stop you from moving to find work

i spent a good 4 months on it stuck in Hull (or a Hull-Hole as some of my friends called it!)

when you have ~500 people applying to almost every position it becomes tough, add that to the absurd hoops you are forced to jump through wasting time that could be spent actually looking for work, combined with the "new deal" bollox meant that you regularly were blocked from applying for certain positions because it was only available for people that had been unemployed for six months or longer.

So as work was scarce in Hull, i was young with no family or assets tied up in the city i had no problem applying for work in other cities, but wait, actually getting there became impossible because the £25 a week you get for "jobseeking" needs to cover food and bills as the housing allowance can take months, even years to go through doesnt really cover much in the way of transport

The system of refunding transport costs after the interview is designed to stop people going on a jolly, but actually just ends up blocking mobility as you will rarely have enough cash to actually pay for the ticket in the first place, it led to me having to turn down interviews because I could not afford to get there (and then being reprimanded by the jobsworth at the job center for doing so)

I eventually got out of the crappy situation by convincing a company to let me do the interviews over VC through the recruitment agency they had hired to find someone, i then borrowed heavily to finance the move.

edit: and on the whole courting rich people to get them to spend money has been consistently found to increase income inequality - which kinda makes sense i mean lets give money to people who will squirrel it away in the cayman islands and dont pay taxes OR you know, invest in infrastructure and things that actually generate employment...

 

[Job]

Everything that makes money has been built by the rich...

 

[Raven]

A mate of mine was out of work for a year, he is lazy to the bone (in all situations, he falls asleep in his chair after dinner, when he is supposed to be going to the pub etc) anyway, the job centre sent him off on a 12 week (I think it was) residential course to learn CAD, now the idle sod earns more than me.

 

[Gumbo]

combined with the "new deal" bollox

A Labour idea...

I do think there needs to be a fundamental shake up of out of work benefits and yes disability ones too. It's impossibly politically incorrect, but being disabled shouldn't necessarily automatically mean that you get to choose not to work. Clearly every case has to be assessed on it's merits, and for many any kind of work would be impossible, but for many more who are on disability benefits, some form of work is of course possible. Just because you have a bit of a dicky hip doesn't mean you can't do any job at all.

At the same time.....

We should throw a ton more money at childcare, which is an anti tory idea really. If people want to work then their childcare should be entirely funded up to 40 hours a week. Currently every 3 year old can get up to 15 hours a week funded, and then, here's where it's backwards, certain 2 year olds can also get it. I know, I help to run a pre school. Now the 2 year olds that can get it are the 2 year olds who would be entitled to free school meals over 7. So the children of those on benefits. Not the children of those who want to go out and get a job. That's backwards.

 

[Raven]

Families with an out of work parent get childcare too, which is fucked up. Drop that shit, increase the allowance for working families. They also don't pay nursery nurses nearly enough, its barely minimum wage most of the time, with the responsibility of looking after other peoples (often) horrible little arseholes.

 

[Gwadien]

A mate of mine was out of work for a year, he is lazy to the bone (in all situations, he falls asleep in his chair after dinner, when he is supposed to be going to the pub etc) anyway, the job centre sent him off on a 12 week (I think it was) residential course to learn CAD, now the idle sod earns more than me.

I don't get it, is that bad then?

 

[Raven]

I don't get it, is that bad then?

No, just an example of someone who took the opportunities given to him (and available to loads of slackers) and is now doing pretty well.