The frustration of crafters

[Khefru]

When I started weapon crafting last year, there was a huge demand for LGM crafters on Hib/Excal. I got to LGM w/c and was only 1 of 2 in our realm (the other being Ortunga). I charged per retry on 99's and mp's along with a 20% mark up. People were happy to pay these prices and I made good money (which I felt was justified by spending so much time and my own and my guild money to get there). Eventually, more people became lgm w/cers and started to undercut me. I had no vault space to store 99's from mp orders and stuck to my principles of per retry's for 99's and mp's. People stopped ordering from me and what was once a profitable craft turned into a time drain of just making cost price weapons for guildies.

I then decided to try crafting on a percentage luck value of fixed price 99's and mp's. I figured that although I would get some bad luck, the good luck should even it out and I would make profit over time. I quickley lost 10 plat in a few weeks on mp orders. That idea got scrapped.

Nowadays, I feel there is no profit to be made in crafting at all. It can take a very long time to make an mp (and really winds me up when someone asks 'how it is going coz you've been crafting that for ages' after only 15 minites). I now have 2 vault bots full of 99 qual weapons that don't sell unless they are for material price.

Also asking someone to pay double the average cost for an mp weapon that took 100+ retries to make is horrible. They get annoyed and accuse me of making a killing on the 99's and then I get a bad name throughout the realm for being expensive or a con artist (who's to say I never made it after 5 retries and just said it took 100+). No-one ever remebers or mentions the mp that they got for dirt cheap after only 5 retries.

My advise to anyone who thinks crafters are having an easy time is roll your own and see the time and cost it takes to get to lgm and then the luck required to make mp's and the hassel of selling those 99's.

I've got my lgm w/c, a/c and tailor and I still take orders, but make it quite clear when and if I'll make it and also the cost involved. if someone wants a 99 that I don't have in stock I advise them to look for someone who does have one as it will be a lot cheaper.

Fixed prices will never work imo and I for 1 would never do it after the bad experiences I've had from it.

 

[Bleri McThrust]

I still remember the day I dinged LGM WC in Beno. Those where the days of crafting community

Even then I was shocked to find that I couldnt sell 99% weapons at a profit because of all the MP castoffs being sold dirt cheap at Sauvage. It was then I decided not to take orders for anything but guild or friends.

However I have been (and probably will be) just as guilty as them and others in selling unwanted 99% weapons at cheap prices. Every now and again I want to empty my vault and how to do it any other way ?

Sometimes these days I will take orders and always on a cost per retry basis. Sometimes it can be really embarrasing to explain that what they bought from me for 350G last week out of vault is now 400+ because its an order . I did once make an MP for which I took a paper loss. This MP took an embarrasing number of retries but had a lot of 99% weapons also. In the end we came to an agreement whereas we both sold the 99%'ers at a silly price. I just didnt have the heart to charge a full price, took a long time but we got there.

Anyway there will always be crafters with the need to sell fast therefore cheap thos MP cast offs. There will be few crafters who actually make a profit from crafting. And lastly if youre thinking of taking it up ....... dont use your main char lol it can be a pain to get away from.

 

[Molten Lava]

Re: Re: What?

Originally posted by Draylor
Well 17% is exactly what youd expect - 1 in 6.

Most crafted items sell back to merchants for 75% of material price, so assuming thats the case average cost is roughly the material cost + cost of 5 retries: 1 + (5 * 0.25) = 2.25

Selling them for 2 times cost, or perhaps a little less, still allows for a small profit if you sell the 5 MPs youd expect to make in those 250 attempts for a decent price.

Of course when luck turns bad and you dont get any MPs this starts to get very expensive.

Ahh k I thought they 1/2 or 1/3 was 99% thanks for the explanation....2.5 times cost sounds fair to me then...

 

[[CT] Sock]

Just as an idea....

If you are going to post to Mythic about crafting etc asking them to change anything, why not look at this as an option...

Impliment some form of RA system for crafting. When you combat in RvR you gain Realm Ability Points based on the RP's you get for the kills you make. Why not impliment a similar system when it comes to crafting? For example, every time you craft a gem, you are given Craft Points based on the con of the gem you are trying to make (from Red to Green) and also the quality you make the resulting gem at (from 94% to 100%).

For example, you attempt to make an Orange con gem:

You fail a few times...
You successfully make the <gem> (94%)
You gain skill in Evocation (591)
You gain 156 Craft Ability Points
You begin crafting <gem>
You successfully make the <gem> (98%)
You gain skill in Evocation (592)
You gain 199 Craft Ability Points

The above is just an example, but then you can gain craft ranks and recieve Craft Ability Points which you could spend on the following (again just ideas):

• Nimble Hands - Grants 5% speed increase to crafting items per level (1/3/6/10/14)
(could even be tied into RA too, for example requires Augmented Dex / Qui lvl 3)
• Mastery of Craft - Grants 5% increase to chance of making an MP (or high lvl eg 99%) item with each level (6/10/14)
(could even be tied into RA too, for example requires Mastery of Concentration or something)
• Mastery of Salvage - Grants 5% bonus to amount of materials salvaged per level of ability (1/3/6)

Naturally these are just a few ideas I'm throwing around but it gives those people who are crafting constantly another way to further develop their craft and characters, and also makes crafting a more viable aspect of the game, if someone wished to simply make a merchant and spend all their time crafting.

I think Mythic would entertain something like this more than altering the standard crafting system they have in place, and perhaps would be an easier system to impliment.

What do you think?

Open to suggestions...

 

[picard_locutus]

Sounds like a good idea to me..

 

[Khefru]

Nice ideas, but not so sure about having to use up those valuable ra's for crafting instead of RvR things.

 

[medowind]

Btw for all crafters, have you even seen the prises stuff we make goes for on other servers, I swear the germen servers are DOUBLE our prises in everything,

Sure its for our realm, but when I see sidi drops being sold for 3-4p I begin to wonder why not charge 10 retries + 50% mark-up, after all it’s a living

 

[[CT] Sock]

Originally posted by Khefru
Nice ideas, but not so sure about having to use up those valuable ra's for crafting instead of RvR things.

No but you wouldn't though would you. They would just be LINKED to it if you know what I mean.

Like for example, if you are a wizzy doing Spellcrafting, chances are you would have things like Aug Dex or Mastery of Conc already - so it would be a bonus. Maybe each different craft could be linked to specific RA's - eg if you are a Fighter crafting Weapons or Armour you may have Aug Str, and so your Craft Ability would be called something like Mighty Hammer (giving the same increase of 5% per level crafting speed, but this time based upon the fact that you can wield your hammer harder, shaping quicker instead of moving your hands faster - get what I mean?). It's a kind of win-win situation, because people would be encouraged to participate in more RvR as a result, so they can expand their characters crafting capability.

Like I said, they were just thoughts and ideas, but the Craft Points idea I would like to see implemented. I've emailed Sanya already to see what the Dev Heads think about it all, but it's something I think would really add something to the in-game world, outside of RvR. especially with housing coming, and people able to ply their trade from their own home.

 

[Wise Crafter]

Solution for Weaponcrafters.

For now on, we have to start charging with quality. I will show how to price everything. All these are with 25% markup in base/retry. You will always sell weapon priced by quality, not retries..or close. here goes.

94% = 0 retries
95% = 1 retries
96% = 2 retries
97% = 3 retries
98% = 4 retries
99% = 5 retries
MP = 50 retries

this means, if you get 98% in first try, you will still charge with 4. You will charge with quality till it goes over that exact retry number. After that, you change to charge per retries. Meaning, if the order is 99%, and you make it in 4 retry, you will charge with 5. If you make it in 7 retry, you will charge with 7 and so on. This is very easy and should be clear.

Then MP's

With MP's you have to ask 50 retry insurance cash before you start. If customer isn't rdy to pay it, it wouldn't be rdy to pay after all, so this way you insure your own ass. Ok, you will keep trying till you get to 50 retries and no luck yet. You ask same amount of another insurance money, if he doesn't pay it, you are not the one who looses. Ok, when you finally get that lovely MP, you will charge it with 10 more retries than it actually took, and give the right amount of cash back to customer with that MP. But, you will never sell MP or any other Quality below their exact Retry number, which you can see above. Never!

Some exapmles:

-you get MP in 13 retries, you are lucky in this case, but you will still charge with 50.
-you get MP in 47 retries, you will still charge with 57.
-you get MP in 87 retries, you will still charge with 97.

Never below 50, ok.


If you allready have MPs in Vault

You just charge all MPs with 50 retry price that's it, Same applies to all other qualitys as well, even if it's from MP tries. If we all chargem like this, we all will win, and so will the customers. This strategy is fair to crafters and customers..both can be lucky time to time. Markup is everyone's own business, so I won't talk about that

PS. give it a little time and think it over. You'll see how brilliant this Strategy is. And btw, feel free to say what you think?

Good luck fellow Crafters.

 

[medowind]

The problem is all orders seem to be mp/99% nowadays people just refuse to settle for less.

 

[Wise Crafter]

Mostly, that seems to be the case, but I don't see any probs in using the Strategy above though

 

[ydraliskos]

I'm sorry, but I think I see something wrong here....
The problem (as I see it ) that noone already mentioned is with the customers . I explain:

You go at a crafter, and make a MP order... you pay material cost + some FOR EACH retry, but you ONLY take the MP part..
You have paid for all the parts, so their are YOURS to have, not the crafters. You can take them, sell them, do whatever you like with them, but you bought them, didnt you?

Ofc I could be entirely wrong, but I dont know yet.

 

[Mishy]

Originally posted by ydraliskos
I'm sorry, but I think I see something wrong here....
The problem (as I see it ) that noone already mentioned is with the customers . I explain:

You go at a crafter, and make a MP order... you pay material cost + some FOR EACH retry, but you ONLY take the MP part..
You have paid for all the parts, so their are YOURS to have, not the crafters. You can take them, sell them, do whatever you like with them, but you bought them, didnt you?

Ofc I could be entirely wrong, but I dont know yet.

Yes, entirely wrong.

You haven't paid full price for those attempts, you have only paid for the loss in money the crafter takes when he has to sell that item back to the merchant.

e.g.

Item cost 210g, npc merchant pays 158g, loss to crafter = 52g

Generally the crafter adds a markup to the retry cost of usually a few gold, for the time.

However, if you are paying full price for each retry, then yes, all those attempts would be yours to keep, but i highly doubt that is the case.

 

[Draylor]

Originally posted by ydraliskos
You go at a crafter, and make a MP order... you pay material cost + some FOR EACH retry, but you ONLY take the MP part..
You have paid for all the parts, so their are YOURS to have, not the crafters. You can take them, sell them, do whatever you like with them, but you bought them, didnt you?

Feel free

Doing that a set of MP chain gloves that would typically sell for around 1.5plats would cost you more like 5plats. And thats a relatively cheap item.

Still think its a wonderful idea?

 

[ydraliskos]

Originally posted by Mishy
Item cost 210g, npc merchant pays 158g, loss to crafter = 52g

Generally the crafter adds a markup to the retry cost of usually a few gold, for the time.

But the 99% qua items arent sold to merchants! Why pay a merchant-sell loss to the crafter for something he will earn money for? I hope you understand I' m not trying to sound cheap here.. what I'm talking about will maybe help crafters frustrated with low 99qua sell prices

Btw to Draylor, ok stupid me, I was kinda clueless of the pay/try system.

 

[Mishy]

Originally posted by ydraliskos
But the 99% qua items arent sold to merchants! Why pay a merchant-sell loss to the crafter for something he will earn money for? I hope you understand I' m not trying to sound cheap here.. what I'm talking about will maybe help crafters frustrated with low 99qua sell prices

some crafters give a discount when they make a 99% item... also dont always believe that you can always sell that 99% item that was made, sometimes the best you can hope for is what the npc will pay.

Small shields are classic example :\

If you think the retry system is unfair, then simply buy pre-made stock, that way you can be sure you always get a consistant price for the item, whether it cost 210g to make, or 4plat to make.

 

[Khalen]

A known crafter will get orders no matter what the price is because they know they will get their ordered stuff. If people keep moaning about a few Gs then they should move on and find someone else willing to do it for them. A crafter makes his own prices and he has every right to do so. When I was crafting I got a shitload of orders because all the other crafters didn't bother to do the non lvl 51 stuff. Resulting in me becoming rich and a lot of satisfied people who would come back to me once they needed another weapon. And I know a lot of the others were hardly online so eventually most came to me. And yes maybe some crafters might have cheap 99% in store so if I knew someone had that I would point them to him or her. But most of the times those people came back to me anyway because the other crafter was hardly online when he/her was. And sure a fixed price for premade 99% ain't bad. But it's a crafters freedom to do what he wants with the prices.

 

[old.Laryssa]

fellow crafters!

aslong mythic's random number generator > your skill we will have to carry on with the hard life of crafting.


I dont think 253x for MP af102 leather pants on a capped tailor (1165) can be called normal procedure.

 

[Khalen]

Hmmm that happens a lot with leather I can recall. I've only had one such incident with weapons (looks at rugged/matje). Happened to be the most expensive weapon there is too so that was hard. But with all the other weapons it was bit normal. Not had one over 150 tries ever I can recall.

 

[leoric]

Too expensive? Sod the flaming stat monkeys! Charge what you want! You crafted, Your entitled, End of the day if they dont like it, Go somewhere else, As you say not like you loose out! I take my hat off too you crafters, Your entitled too a little extra imo!

 

[Brice-Cabbi-]

Solution for Weaponcrafters.

For now on, we have to start charging with quality. I will show how to price everything. All these are with 25% markup in base/retry. You will always sell weapon priced by quality, not retries..or close. here goes.

94% = 0 retries
95% = 1 retries
96% = 2 retries
97% = 3 retries
98% = 4 retries
99% = 5 retries
MP = 50 retries

this means, if you get 98% in first try, you will still charge with 4. You will charge with quality till it goes over that exact retry number. After that, you change to charge per retries. Meaning, if the order is 99%, and you make it in 4 retry, you will charge with 5. If you make it in 7 retry, you will charge with 7 and so on. This is very easy and should be clear.

Then MP's

With MP's you have to ask 50 retry insurance cash before you start. If customer isn't rdy to pay it, it wouldn't be rdy to pay after all, so this way you insure your own ass. Ok, you will keep trying till you get to 50 retries and no luck yet. You ask same amount of another insurance money, if he doesn't pay it, you are not the one who looses. Ok, when you finally get that lovely MP, you will charge it with 10 more retries than it actually took, and give the right amount of cash back to customer with that MP. But, you will never sell MP or any other Quality below their exact Retry number, which you can see above. Never!

Some exapmles:

-you get MP in 13 retries, you are lucky in this case, but you will still charge with 50.
-you get MP in 47 retries, you will still charge with 57.
-you get MP in 87 retries, you will still charge with 97.

Never below 50, ok.

this sounds just perfect.
I agree on every point here and this is indeed a brilliant strat.
will follow this charges with my wc.
ty wise crafter

 

[Cap'n Sissyfoo]

Originally posted by leoric
Too expensive? Sod the flaming stat monkeys! Charge what you want! You crafted, Your entitled, End of the day if they dont like it, Go somewhere else, As you say not like you loose out! I take my hat off too you crafters, Your entitled too a little extra imo!

Actually, we do lose out when we are trying to sell 99qua stock. People moan at me that 350g is TOO much for a 99qua sabre/long dirk because OTHER people are selling them for 300g. It wasn't too long ago that they cost around 350-400g each. Fookin' annoying when you have to lower your prices just so you can shift some of the excess crap you have in stock.

 

[Brice-Cabbi-]

it's just.. some crafters are selling 99% sabre's or whatever while they tried for a MP. they sell for 300g or even lower so they don't have to stack in their vault.
but while they do that they make people used at a "normal" price like that... 300g.
now if people order and u say the price that it has to be they just link u to someone who payed costprice or less then 300g for a weapon.
result is that crafters are getting less orders and the customers have to wait for a silly weaponcrafter who sells his products under the normal price.

 

[Mishy]

I bought a 99% Sabre, for just 180g, i dont even bother to craft for myself anymore, since its cheaper to buy leftover stock from mp orders

 

[Brice-Cabbi-]

price is ridiculous ..
guess some crafters will never learn

 

[Wise Crafter]

with prices like that, I won't sell stock, I rather sell to merchants, and for now on I will only sell weapons when ordered till these 'stupid' crafters who can't see that they are digging their own hole, stop selling with prices like that..Raise the damn prices, don't lower. Think further than 5 min. If you can't do it, let us do it for you and do as we say. Don't sell cheaply fgd.

 

[Wise Crafter]

one more thing.

Crafters who are still selling too cheaply. Are you really that dumb or why you are selling that cheaply. Can't you see that selling too cheaply only lowers your own money flow, and others as well. Can't you really see that ? Well, what ever is the case, you are disgrace for us. I know everyone doesn't read BW, so let the word go out in game also. We are the only ones who can change things, no one else.

Good Luck, for all crafters which are not digging their own hole.

 

[Cap'n Sissyfoo]

Most crafters who sell really cheap are already stinking rich and don't have to worry about selling for a miniscule profit. They just make it fookin' hard for everyone else.

 

[Wise Crafter]

Hi again,

Konnorel and Nerve, are you too Brainless ?!?! Stop selling those 99% stuff for 200+g..raise it to 400. Did you know when you sell for 200+, and you think you win 40g, you actually loose 200+g everytime you do that and count that with all cheap 99% you have sold. I bet it goes in tens of plats. Use your brains, thx.

Good luck to all, who are not giving their best shot to ruin Crafting.

 

[ukm_thorgrim]

Why Not start a traders & Crafters Guild

All traders & crafters Register on here or Some were else, does not really matter so people know that they are not getting ripped off. Get one Legendry Crafter from all the Trades to monitor it.

then if your not on the list your not trading under the Guild.

might help sort all this agro out. and sets a standard Price for all crafters.

Then no more moans from anyone and people know what they should or should not be paying.


just an idea for all to think about.

UKM_Thorgrim UK Mercs. UK's only registered on line gaming group.