The Diesel Decade

[Tom]

I listened to this on the radio last night (while driving). An estimated 29,000 people killed each year by air pollution.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04f9r9h

One very interesting thing was that when the UK suffered from "pea-soupers", laws were very quickly enacted and the problem dealt with. But because modern air pollution is largely invisible, there seems to be no impetus to confront the issue.

 

[Job]

29000 killed by diesel particles...how the fuck do they gauge that...death certificate...really bad chest...would have survived if there were no diesel soot in the air.

 

[old.Tohtori]

An estimated 15000 people are killed per year because of bullsh*t estimations.

Also 56 million people die per year anyway.

 

[Job]

Of your farts.

 

[Moriath]

Everyone's gotta die sometime. The way people talk it's as if we went back and ate nuts and berries in an un polluted world we would live forever

 

[Job]

Yes you're right and in response I'm building a car that works by firing red hot nails out the back.

 

[Scouse]

Tom's right tho. You can measure respiratory diseases next to air pollution levels. Diesel is bad for particulate emissions (which is why they were thinking of introducing a permanent 50 limit on the M1 near Sheffield).

The answer, of course, is to force engine manufacturers to make far less polluting engines and stop burning coal.

 

[Job]

He won the frickin Nobel prize for inventing the Diesel engine and now they say its killing everyone..oh the irony.

 

[DaGaffer]

The whole of Europe goes on a CO2 pogrom but completely ignores NOx emissions (unlike Japan and the US); and is then surprised that diesel becomes the response to those all those CO2 diktats coming out of Brussels. None of the impact of particulates and NOx were unknown when the Euro4 (and 5 and 6) emissions regs were drafted, but hey, who cares, Europe's leading the way on CO right? And of course they can always tax all those diesel cars as dirty polluters now they have a nice captive market with no-where else to go.

The answer, of course, is to force engine manufacturers to make far less polluting engines and stop burning coal.

That's exactly what they did within the regulations they were given (and its not the first time - catalytic converters were a politically mandated solution to a problem that had much better engineering solutions). The problem is the regulations drafted by politicians, not the car manufacturers. Now we'll all end up driving hybrids and electric cars until someone points out that we've destroyed the water table with lithium oxide deposits. Then, maybe, we'll get the hydrogen economy we should have been working towards all along, but not until the politicians fuck it up at least a couple of times more.

 

[Tom]

If you listen to the programme it explains very carefully that air pollution (not just diesel exhaust gasses) causes a range of problems. For instance, the contributors estimate that polluted air is a very significant factor in heart attacks, perhaps one of the most important triggers. Air pollution acts extremely quickly to change the body's cardiovascular system.

There are also very good points made about how ineffective the EU's testing cycle for car engines is. Apparently, the official figures for gasses like Nitrogen Oxide are out by a factor of up to 5 times. And the economy figures are just as bad. Most cars, in real life, run at around 80% of the official figures - even if you drive like a saint.

But just think about that - 29,000 people killed annually by illegal levels of pollution. Is anyone going to be punished for allowing this to happen?

 

[Job]

Boilers are graded for nox but very few people take any notice
In fact the Worcesters have the low nox upgrade as a separate chip in a little bag you have to fit..I throw it in the bin because it fuks up the boiler and thats why its in a tiny bag at the bottom of the box.

 

[Scouse]

Stuff

Don't disagree with you - but there was also a subsidy on diesel (or less tax) for quite some time. But that's just political short-sightedness - diesel should be phased out quickly tbfh.

the contributors estimate that polluted air is a very significant factor in heart attacks, perhaps one of the most important triggers

It's probably why morning rush hour is heart attack hour - your blood is at it's thickest (after sleep is not a good time to exercise for this reason) - and the additional push of airborne pollutants makes a lot of vulnerable people's tickers go pop.

29,000 early deaths because of pollution, yet our spend on terrorism dwarfs our spend on the stuff that matters...

 

[Job]

Well yes but diesel isnt conspiring to push its will over you through violence which is a bazillion times worse than failing to deal properly with unwanted consequences from an integral part of the logistics of progress.

 

[Scouse]

which is a bazillion times worse

Depends on how you look at it.

A few murders very occasionally or 29,000 deaths per annum?

 

[Job]

That covers everything really.

But anyone who croaks because one morning the air pollution is high is in pretty bad shape to start with and 29 thousand premature deaths by 6 months is probably more realistic.

 

[Moriath]

Look we are all as a species living twice as long as we did a few hundred years ago. There are some risks or accepted side effects of that.

Do you want your cars, your plastic innovations, you western life style?

It comes at a cost that there are pollutants, that things are not as clean and healthy. But we have advanced meds. We live on average a lot longer than we used to.

You have to accept that your life isn't infinite. That you do what you like to do. That the state can't and shouldn't regulate every thing.

That progress comes with cost.

Be happy while your here. Accept the daily mail will tell you everything will cause cancer. That there will never be the perfect environment. And that all you cyclists on the road have been puffing more particulate than us couch potatoes.

 

[Ch3tan]

I drive a diesel, but I won't next time I buy a car. It's going to be taxed to buggery now the eu has woken up to nox levels.

Gaff is right, we'll all be driving hybrids within ten years.

 

[DaGaffer]

I drive a diesel, but I won't next time I buy a car. It's going to be taxed to buggery now the eu has woken up to nox levels.

Gaff is right, we'll all be driving hybrids within ten years.

Problem at the moment is that diesels are really the only game in town for mid-sized cars; there aren't many hybrids and what there are are either crap, mad-expensive, or both. I was looking at the Volvo V60 the other day and the hybrid version is something like 15 grand more expensive than the diesel; take a lot of miles to make that more cost-effective than a diesel, even if they do ramp up tax. Having said that, I have a friend who's a director at Toyota and he's rubbing his hands with glee; they're one of the few manufacturers who haven't really bothered with diesel at all.

 

[old.user4556]

Bitches please!

Have you not heard about the A3 etron?

http://www.audi.co.uk/content/audi/e-tron/e-tron.html

A hybrid worth getting moist over (well, sort of....). I'm a company car driver, currently have a diesel and well aware that it may be taxed to high heaven eventually. The A3 etron is a workable daily driver that I can get on board with.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Look we are all as a species living twice as long as we did a few hundred years ago. There are some risks or accepted side effects of that. (snip)

This. If we were "as nature intended", we wouldn't be sitting in wheelchairs when we're 98.

 

[DaGaffer]

Bitches please!

Have you not heard about the A3 etron?

http://www.audi.co.uk/content/audi/e-tron/e-tron.html

A hybrid worth getting moist over (well, sort of....). I'm a company car driver, currently have a diesel and well aware that it may be taxed to high heaven eventually. The A3 etron is a workable daily driver that I can get on board with.

Same problem, 35 grand v 20 for a TDi

 

[old.user4556]

It's not as black and white as that.

A similar spec A3 TDI comes in around the £28k mark - the tax savings on the e-tron (due to such a low CO2 level) make it cheaper per month for a fleet driver like myself so it's a very appealing option.

Yes, it's pointless to Joe Public for now due to the astronomical list price, but for me it works out cheaper on a company scheme.

 

[Job]

As Scouse pointed out they will just add technology to diesels to reduce nox and particulates...time to invest in companies working on it.

 

[Billargh]

In mainland Europe (NL etc) aren't Diesels taxed to buggery in an attempt to get people to buy petrols? Or is it the other way around? I cba to google.

 

[Bodhi]

Having just got rid of a smelly old diesel, and replaced it with a lovely and smooth petrol, I am currently feeling quite smug. Especially considering for my 20k miles a year, moving from a 3 litre turbo diesel to a much faster 3 litre petrol is costing me.......5 pounds a week. Oh, and saving me about £10 a week in insurance and potential maintenance. And there's next to bugger all to come out the tailpipe other than a bit of plant food. And it goes like the clappers. Win, and indeed, win.

P.S Big G don't bet on BIK for hybrids staying low indefinitely, when discussing the i8 on PH it was mentioned that it's due to double next year, then double again the year after.

 

[old.user4556]

Well, maybe in England, who knows about Scotland .

 

[Bodhi]

Well, maybe in England, who knows about Scotland .

Do you honestly think you'll be allowed cars in the People's Republic of Scotland?

 

[old.user4556]

We'll have hover cars, powered by the excess of bullshit that flows out of Salmond's mouth.

 

[DaGaffer]

I thought you were all getting solid gold Ferraris powered by 10 pound notes?

 

[old.user4556]

That's just the weekend car.