The Devolution of DAOC... Game or Players?

[Access Denied]

I couldn't agree more. I've seen a lot of reasonable questions been completely ignored. However, as many have already pointed out you can't include everyone in the "players killed the game" statement. I'll give you an example.

When I first started playing the game almost 2 years ago my very first toon was an Armsman called Radd. After just two days of playing this random person comes up to me adn gives me a full set of lvl 51 armour (I can't remember their name, don't think I ever caught it tbh but thanks man, you made my day). I was like "Wtf? Wow nice, thanks =D" On the bad side my first guild was completely useless, never answered a single question I had, hardly ever spoke to each other in /gu. It just seemed as if they didn't give a flying fornication.

Then I found the guild all my toons are currently in and tbh it's largely down to them that I'm still playing. They patiently answered all my "noob" questions and gave me help when I needed it, still do as a matter of fact. Also we have a laugh, most days the wit bounces off the walls of the chat window and keeps me smiling. So I would agree that to a certain extent the players have contributed but there are those people out there that do random acts of kindness. If at first you don't succeed, find another grp/guild.

Me =)

 

[Esselinithia]

Most people, in EU and in US alike assumes there are no new players in the game. No new players, no new players. But I remember, when we raided the dark elf castle in the lowest level cata zone. Everyone said, there are no newbies, but I found enough to form a raid.

Everyone says, there are no casual players.
No fans of PVE.

Just people who SHOULD meet our standards, or they are gimps, arrogant morons and should be left alone.

It happens at low level, it happens at high level. It happens in TOA lands and elsewhere. It happens on normal servers, and it happens on classic.

Recently with some friends we started with new characters, new accounts again. On MLF and on Gaheris.

I was like level 8, when I asked someone for the price of aurulite on the server. I was a bit dissappointed when I heard it, but someone offered to log on a necro and farm my aurulite for me. I was happy yet I said no thanks. I told him, I am just on a new account, and I should have fun trying to play the game we played in the old time, grouping with newbies and others. No help, not even from my other accounts.

Recently I met him on a Dragon raid. He was worried since he haven't seen my mentalist (I love my friar now!), but was happy when he heard it is me. I won some loot, but he wanted it. He always offered help, so I didn't care for the price of the loot: it was a present for him, my time to offer help. I was happy with doing other quests anyway. He made me smile and made me happy even with offers, and I know we will do MLs, etc. And he is happy now.

To level 40ish, I leveled with a ranger, who was mostly likely on a trial account, and was young, and new to the game. I met many newbies, even when I played my next character: A friar.

And I found the game good fun. But Gaheris folks are always nice and friendly so I am not that surprised.

But when I tried the new quests for newbies, and got to the level 1-4 version of the mini df, on a druid, I was surprised. There was some newbie there too. He was level 4, I was level 3, he was alb, I was hib (druid). Well, it didn't make quest easy. But we met in next dungeon too. That time I made questing realy hard for him. But I guess he had fun.

Had fun, because as a newbie he was suggested to visit this place, suggested to visit BGs and he met people there, he wanted to RvR and got it. And even if I leveled quickly, with friends, etc. I seen and met newbies.

And to my best knowledge you can find them on dyvet too.

When you forget about the newbies, forget about other people and care only about your standards the game will die.
When you try to find other people, help them and make them happy, soon someone will make you happy as well.

Greed doesn't work.
NF had many nice chances, but don't "force" forming of PUGs and community, and people became greedy without pressure.
TOA can be a good way to team up with many. But with greedy and lazy it didn't work.
It wasn't Mythics fault: it was our fault.

We can blame GOA for Prydwen crash and how they handled it. It was realy bad.
But we can't blame them for how the people didn't help each other. Many people actually flamed the players who lost gear, who were worried about their guild. They were an annoying problem, something outside the standards.

These people left, and left not only because of GOA, but because Prydwen community as well. Some were helpful, but most weren't. And this is why they deserve the population problem. They don't care for anything except for their kind of fun, be it 1v1 or 8v8 or irvr.

Now I seen newbies or people who starting after many years of pause and need the same kind of advice. Seen people on other forums asking about the game. And seen how dyvet people claim, they don't exist they don't see them on server, they only see annoying gimps, who leave unhappily.

This is why I don't recommend EU for *anyone*.

Even in US, I don't recommend Classic for similar reasons.

Know how to fix the population problems?

Invite friends, roll new 1st level characters, look for other newbies, group with them, teach people, share the fun. And try to look at other people, try to understand how other people are playing.

I joined 8v8 crew, etc. to see and understand them. I knew they need items more than me (who loves PVE raids and getting items) so I often gave stuff to them. I seen scouts on a tower, repaired towers, and seen irvr zerg. Tried to see how I can make people happy.

But I found the leet people, either 1v1 or 8v8, or irvr rp farmer, don't want to make anyone else happy. But some normal players do. You shouldn't follow the leet, you should follow the normal crowd. It helps.

 

[Esselinithia]

On the bad side my first guild was completely useless, never answered a single question I had, hardly ever spoke to each other in /gu. It just seemed as if they didn't give a flying fornication.

Then I found the guild all my toons are currently in and tbh it's largely down to them that I'm still playing.

To me: my first EU guild was Angels of Darkness. They flooded many hungarian forums advenrtising the game, and promised all kinds of help to people everywhere. The stores were out of stock, I got me an US account first but had to play on EU for some friends so asked a german friend to buy the game for me, so I started a bit later than the last flock of newbies.

When I asked any questions, they oftend didn't reply, or posted insults. Stating they already explained the same thing to newbies x weeks ago... A bit before I joined the game, so had no chance to see them.
Some prominent members of guild: I knew from another game. They promised to support my habbit of crafting, since I mostly cared for crafting and support stuff anyway. They said if I want healing and misc support I should roll a minstrel. A minstrel and alchemist, without the promised support.

I got invited to Hand of Chaos. I asked them to wait, an let me speak with AoD people first. Spoke with the few friendly ones about my problems I met, and about the invite. They suggested to accept the invite. This is why I stayed with DAOC till the prydwen crash.

At that time too many people lost everything, too many people decided they don't pay a cent to GOA again. And we had a small chapter in WoW already, so everyone moved to WoW in a short time.

I had 2 alts in other guilds, my theurg (I made for such purposes) in Golem Girls.
And my Cleric, in GoP. While AOD teached me the lession to avoid arogant greedy leet morons, and their guilds. GOP teached me that not all strong guilds are like that. I joined GoP only because some friends insisted on that.

After the prydwen crash all guilds I mentioned vanished, so I only stayed for the weekly dragon raids, placed some chars in Mobs on Drugs (I host their home page, etc), but only logged in before raid and left after raid for most time. DAOC wasn't the same for me again. And it ruined my feelings for US version as well, so became less and less active, till I restarted now.

My EU accounts are closed (no more weekly fun anyway), I don't use any old accounts, but as you seen from the other story, I am happy on the new ones.

Even with time zone differences and too many mids on the /as (they are friendly and mostly helpfull, but time zone difference and a lot of stuff done in midgard it can be difficult for an alb who is from Europe). /Yes, I play mostly on cooperative server, this is how we have mids in alliance/

 

[NavaloreShadowvar]

great post +rep

 

[GReaper]

If the exact same thing happened in another game, like WoW, would you be posting that the attitude of the players is the main thing driving players away? You're taking a single incident and generalising it for the dropping populations on every server.

My own opinion is that the decline of the DAoC population is mostly due to people being bored with the game, as well as finding other games more interesting. Eventually there is a point at where the game is no longer exciting anymore! Personally I'm quite close to this point myself, I only login occasionally for RvR because I find the rest of the game quite tedious.

I'd say the reason why people agree with all this is that they miss the good old times, the feeling of nostalgia. Nothing compares to some of your most fondest memories of the game, so it has to be the other players who ruined it... right?

 

[Esselinithia]

GReaper:
1st: sadly it isn't only one incident. As you see people named several similar incidents in replies already.
2nd: The game isn't boring, but most people are too lazy to try and enjoy the new content, they are the ones who are too lazy to help as well.
3rd: Several othergames got the same problem mentioned about decline, and decline on a few servers.
4th: And we can see a difference between servers even now.
5th: Interesting enough, I seen people seeing newbies even there and claiming there are no new people, so they don't help them, don't group with them, and later they complain for adding. So what is noted in the first post is quite visible here too.

 

[AngelHeal]

great post, however not all people are like that, I think what you did is a nice and good job. I'am very lucky to be in a very friendly guild, most likely the reason I still play daoc.

So yes, I do think it's the players fault of the devolution, because if I hadn't such great people arround me ingame I would've quit long time ago.

(note: players attitude have also changed in time due the fact problems with the game and goa)

The game is a old-timer, and like all old-timers, there will be newer models (wow / warhammeronline etc etc) but in 4 year maybe a bit more you will see the same in those games).

 

[killerpen9uin]

It's a bit like being the oldest in your school and looking down at the youngest pupils and thinking to yourself; "I wasn't that small when I was their age". And of course, you were.

Completely true, we all had to learn at some point

 

[Dallas]

Hear hear

I think most of it comes down to NF/TOA.. The OF days with 7 pala/1 friar groups at amg was good for everyone. Fgs could do their thing, and casuals/beginners could also participate in rvr, plus loads of people only pve'd. Classic old SI dungeon raids with 100 people and 5 drops

 

[Everz]

Hear hear

I think most of it comes down to NF/TOA.. The OF days with 7 pala/1 friar groups at amg was good for everyone. Fgs could do their thing, and casuals/beginners could also participate in rvr, plus loads of people only pve'd. Classic old SI dungeon raids with 100 people and 5 drops

ya, even this shard doesnt even feel like OF magic..

 

[Golena]

The problem is you've only hit half the nail.

Joining a MMPORG and having people abuse you because your new will cause you to leave quickly but there's something more critical for the decline in DAoC (and most other online games out there) and why most follow the same timeline.

The game is released and a load of new players leap into the game as newbs and have fun running about together. Groups of these newbies form up and create guilds to play together. Eventually people achieve everything they want to and move on. In most cases when a few people from these guilds leave the majority of the guild leaves at the same time. Either they move to another game as a group or stop playing because their mates who made the game fun arn't online.
In every jump there's probably a few who will stay around either mostly solo or recreate a new group with other people left around until eventually there's only a few people left.

After that initial burst most games fail to attract a meaningful number of "new" players. Much of the reason for this is that when you join your the new guy.
Some people will get lucky and either find an established group they can join and get along with or run into a collection of other newbs and go through the above cycle.
Most newbs will find they don't get this lucky and tend to have a fairly lonely online experience. You really need to get lucky as only a few people per day try the game to run into a collection of people that you actually get along with who tend to log in at the same time as you that you can form a new guild with. People that are established don't really want to give the amount of time required to get a newbie up to speed.

Take your example of the newbie healer. You grouped up with him and showed him some stuff, got him some exp, probably gave him a fun days experience. While you leave thinking that helped (and i'm sure it did) how much longer did you really keep him in the game. Next time he logs on are you going to be there to level with him again? You've increased his chances of falling into one of the 2 above categories definately but it still relies on that actually happening. People don't stay on MMPORGs just going from group to group with people being nice to them but by getting actively involved in a guild environment with mates. He doesn't need people who can help him play but other people also with no clue how to play that don't mind the fuckups.

I've met plenty of newbs and helped them out as best as possible, run round quests with them, helped them get gear etc, but i've left most times knowing that they wouldn't last the week, simply because they won't find the people to group with day in and day out. The people you actually chat with about life not just talk about where you should level tonight.

It's something that designers need to start considering with future games.. how to integrate new players into the mix in a way that makes them feel part of a community not some outsider looking in. It's only going to become more of a problem as time passes and new games are populated with established guilds moving over from other games and being the guy on the outside is more and more normal for new players.
Simply stopping PL'ing and making people level the old fashioned way only helps a small bit. In fact making people experienced in the game have to play with people who arn't is actually likely to increase scenario's like you describe. Your not going to change the leet into newbie friendly carebears any time soon. What you need to do is find a way they can avoid getting in each others way. What you need to do is get the new players into the tight circle of friends that forms in these games, and until you can work out how to do that your not going to succeed. Maybe the truth is that if you want to play an MMPORG you need to join in the first few months and once your there that's the population you have and once it's below a certain point everyone should accept that and move somewhere new and that's just the model that works.

Everyone blames TOA for lots of people leaving.. I think TOA actually came along at a time many people were bored and looking for something new and was a perfect excuse for leaving. What it did do with the BG raids was give new players somewhere to actually meet people.. I met hundreds of players i'd never of talked to in the game if TOA hadn't existed on ML pre-raids and made several friends because of it. The main problem was (a) it quickly became newbie unfriendly as well since people wanted it done quickly and with zero mistakes and (b) you needed to get to level 40 to actually start it by which time most new players had packed up and gone home. Some parts of TOA were very badly done (artifact camping, hello!!), but the concept that you needed to provide stuff to do with people not in your close knit circle of mates was right. It was one of the reasons I hated the ML BG raids done with the BG on listen mode and some leader barking out instructions. Yeah it got through the raid but it completely missed the point of why it was put in the game.

 

[Golena]

2nd: The game isn't boring, but most people are too lazy to try and enjoy the new content, they are the ones who are too lazy to help as well.

I find statements like this often quite baffling.

While I agree that the general population of the average MMPORG tend to want everything put on a plate for them it's NOT good new content if you have to try and enjoy it.
Take darkness rising for example.. a good quest storyline with a good reward at the end of it. Unfortunately completely missing the target audience who were still playing. At the time it was released the number of people who wanted a roleplaying storyline they had to read through were quite small so it actually turned into 3 hours of running around areas you knew like the back of your hand anyway clicking on a few new NPC's, followed by an hours mashing through a new dungeon.. one that mostly contained mobs simply rehashed from DF.
The main focus of the game has always been RvR. It's what differentiates it from many of the other MMPORG's out there and why most people play it over the others. The amount of new RvR content (the stuff people might actually enjoy) has been fairly small. Instead it's been lots of mindlessly running between NPC's to get the next must have items. It's not lazyness that people don't want to go off and explore new content such as in the laby it's that there's very little in DAoC PvE that doesn't involve doing something then doing it exactly the same 100 times. Changing the graphic infront of you while your doing it is not "good new content".

I often see people who mainly enjoy PvE complaining about those who don't enjoy it. I actually quite liked PvE'ing at times but I can see why for many people it held no appeal at all and it was normally the least lazy people that found it the most boring. PvE in DAoC for the most part required no effort and very little user input. None lazy people tended to find they would rather be doing something other than watching an exp bar slowly increase. Most people seem just to assume they must be too lazy to help rather than realise they might just have more important stuff to do with their time.

 

[Lamp]

DAOC's been dying for years now. Its the same old same old. Its looking tired now. We all know the reasons. IMO time to put it out to pasture. I started playing Freeshards 3 weeks ago. Stopped now. Its just more of the same old bollocks. Boring. Rinse. Spin. Repeat. Yawn.

 

[Mas]

Great thread and first post.

Got to say i completely agree. The game is too long in the tooth now and the main playerbase has been playing a while and knows the ins and outs of pve and rvr. Large portion have rr8+ chars and run often in opted fg's in rvr and pve.

The "leet" gap has become too wide and some people think they are beyond helping anyone who doesent stroke their peen or someone who is less kittted out or less rr than themselves. The help thy neighbor attitude only accounts for adding in rvr these days and the tolerance for anyone "under" them is at 0.

People just want to do things at an optimum level. Mobs down with few people as possible and as quickly as possible, no time or space for anyone who has never killed a specific mob as no time to be wasted on wipes etc.

Back when i started on alb some years ago on a cleric full rejuv spec at lvl 14 killing green/blue mobs with my 1h mace it took forever to level her, but a kind gent (muylaetrix) stepped in to offer help, assistance and his knowledge of the game to help me to enjoy the game more, and its the little notions like that which has kept me playing for so long.

New players must now feel lost in an empty under lvl 50 world where their only guidance is the instruction manual

 

[Lamp]

Its the people - always has been - always will be - that forms a MMORPG. Stop blaming GOA / Mythic. Its all your shitty attitudes that have fucked this game up. Not giving new players the time of day. Telling them to fuck off and find another group. Nice attitude. You should be ashamed. Well done the original poster for spending some quality time explaining how the games works. I wish there were more people like you, sir.

 

[Golena]

Its the people - always has been - always will be - that forms a MMORPG. Stop blaming GOA / Mythic. Its all your shitty attitudes that have fucked this game up.

It's not Mythics fault that players have shitty attitudes. It is their fault that players having shitty attitudes towards each other can have such an impact on the games health.
If a game relies on hardcore gamers being nice and polite to the newbies then it's never going to succeed. People arn't all suddenly going to start getting along with everyone else in the world overnight. Sometimes you don't want to take the new guy along.. not because you don't want to help him, but because you've got your own targets and stuff you want to do. Some people you just don't get on with, same as in real life.

It's up to the game designers to find a way where a games survival doesn't rely on people taking the newbies under their wings and coaching them through. Otherwise we'll have this exact same conversation over and over again during the next dying game.

 

[Lamp]

great post, however not all people are like that

You've hit the nail on the head m8.

Remember your very first day in DAOC ? I started post-beta. Most ppl were noobs, so we all fart arsed about through the early levels until we got an idea what was going on. The entire atmosphere was different then. People grouped. All the time. Everywhere. You had a laugh. It was seriously addictive. Who wasn't up until 3am trying to level ? LOL Great fun.

Sadly - 5 years (or whatever it is) down the line, many of the same people still playing are old hats. Cynical of GOA / Mythic. Critical of patch releases.

You can't please all of the people all of the time.

End of the day - you play (and take the game and its people) as it stands with all its good points and faults...or you don't play.

 

[Demrog]

Great post Urgat (+rep)

I left the EU servers quite some time ago for a few reasons, TOA, pop decline, friends leaving etc. but for me the whole point of playing a MMORPG is the PEOPLE!

It is the people that brought me back to DAoC (albeit on the US servers and not the Euro servers).

I first started playing on the US beta but quickly got bored due to the lack of interaction I found on the US servers. When the Euro beta started, I moved over and joined a couple of friends (Urgat and Carrot) and then we got invited to join a group of people that had just started a guild (Purple Warriors) that they had brought over from Ultima Online Drachenfels server.

It was these people that made DAoC fun for me, and without them it would have been a likely outcome that I would likely have got bored again and probably walked away.

Over the years I have noticed more and more a general dislike of newer/casual players and an unwillingness to help, even when it wouldn't have cost anything except maybe a moment of their time.

However, as has been said - people can not just break a game, they can make it as well, and I am sure it is because of the people they know in game that are the reason most of us still play.

Problems with servers/patches/classes come and go and may have their effects on population decline but at the end of the day I believe that it's down to us and the way we are with each other that will determine whether we stay or not.

 

[Golena]

Over the years I have noticed more and more a general dislike of newer/casual players and an unwillingness to help, even when it wouldn't have cost anything except maybe a moment of their time.

All your points are very valid but the above one seems to come up alot and it's often as if people think that time is something that's somehow free.

When we all started then most of us probably knew very few people in game, so almost 100% of our in game time was essentially free. Now if you make 1 friend then lets say you spend 10% of your time helping or playing with them you've now only got 90% of your time free.
I've noticed at several points in my DAoC lifetime that if I helped everybody that asked and only wanted a moment of my time i'd actually of had to increase my gaming time to fit it all in, and I still wouldn't of got the stuff I wanted to do done. 5 minutes to get something might not seem like much to you.. get 10 people that want that and it suddenly starts becoming a choir.

The natural thing to do here is to give help to the people that you know and that helped you. The problem is that new players don't tend to know people, and can't really give anything back to you so they tend to be the ones that get pushed to the bottom of the pile. Some people find the social aspects of meeting and helping a new player fun. For some people it's taking 5 minutes of fun out of their gaming time and getting nothing in return, and when logging onto DAoC starts to feel like a job your in trouble!

 

[thergador]

i think we can safely say that excal/pryd got ill lately due to player attitudes and GOA'a responce's to situations you only need to look at FH post back 12months to see there is poster getting pretty close to being real life hatered (the game just got to poeple way to much)

however i dont think DAOC is dead it far from dead (well till W.H.O hits) mythic made a few bad truns in some people's eye's ie TOA the PVE time sink hole but what those people didnt seem to get was that it wasn;t a game just about PVP and there a whole PVE game

i think theres not many peeps still playing from pre SI day i know about 3 or 4 i played with back then but even then they have moved to usa/mythic servers now, there seem to be a lot of ex WoW players that came to DAOC over the time, (not say all of them) some of there attitude to other players just plane stinks and i dont mean the adding in PVP on adding in PVE i mean the way they speak to others

its been nice reading this thread though some very good points made (poke's at goa mythic and EA to read it)

 

[MegaMaejter]

Look at temair cluster, this problem doesn't even exist there and I'm sure Germans are just as bad as any others when it comes to DAoC attitudes, so no I don't think the players are the cause.

What you see on excal/pryd is the endresult of a downing spiral all since NF was introduced. You claim that ToA + Buffbots was the reason but all you got to do is look at the statistics and you will see it goes bad some weeks after NF was introduced, same pattern both on the EU and US servers.

 

[Hawkwind]

Great post, so unusual to find a constructive post on these boards.

Although I agree with just about everything stated I still think the biggest overall problem in getting people into to DAOC, particularly English Servers, was lack on any meaningful advertising. A couple of posters in GAME just does not cut it these days. Just look at the way they advertise Warcraft, Magazine, Internet and TV. An addon comes out same thing happens. That's why they have masses of servers mostly full.

GOA could do more with special offers like a couple months FOC. Or a one off /level 50 when you get one char to L50 RR5. Loads of things they could do. But anything they try must be advertised. If not the only people that will hear about it are the ones already playing.

 

[fawzi]

Devolution of DAoC?

I think you'll find that the German/French/US servers are very much alive I think we, as the English server community, need to look at why our server is the way it is and what we did to make it that way.

 

[Hawkwind]

Devolution of DAoC?

I think you'll find that the German/French/US servers are very much alive I think we, as the English server community, need to look at why our server is the way it is and what we did to make it that way.

I happened to be in Paris the week they launched TOA and you would not believe the amount of advertising done. At one mall close to where we were working they had billboards up, demo setup inside. All three comp stores including a Virgin Megastore had lots of posters and cut-outs at the front of the store (prime position). Went to UK two weeks after and local store (privately owned) had not even heard of it. PC World store did have it but no posters of any advertising at all.

 

[Thadius]

Its a lot of little things working together to create a avalanche that is killing of UK DAOC.

When TOA came out, you lost your first round ofr oldschoolers, quite a few of which helped me when I first started. This didnt affect the game too much as people were returning after Star Wars.

With the incoming NF, you had every man and his dog powerlevelling his archerin places like AC, which was good for myself as I could almost always find a group to level with. This continued for a while after NF got released, it suddenly stopped when NF died down a lot.

Then, things like NF got released. Those rvrers, casual and elite alike, couldnt find the rvr as it was so big, though the first week of NF was a clusterfuck of new playstyles. Eventually, this died off when the outrageous siege times and daft relic keeps killed off rvr.

A few months down the line, WOW beta came out. Again, not that many left en masse as the rvr was still strong etc.

Then server crash. The main pve guilds, like Golem Girls, quit en masse in digust at GOA's lack of a response. Some people were waiting 8 months for a return, and people got pissed off.

Classic servers were introduced to counter the buffbot suiuation, something that back in the day was great for goa as you had 2 accounts for the price of one. The amount of people rvring without a bot was till fairly strong. With the onset of WoW, you had the few unbuffed players leave due to not being able to compete. But these classic servers diudnt last, the zerg nature of some french guilds pissed off the UK players, making them quit enmasse and leaving the server to die and eventually be clustered.

So what you have now is the core few who have been here years, bickering and fighting over the last drop in a barrel that was once overflowing. You have what once was a great game a shell of its former self, due to mismanagement from GOA and Mythic, playerstyles contrasting, forums such as this one when those squabbles would become flamewars, lack of oppourtunities for new players and stupid pve timers that meant Mr 3 hours every night couldnt compete with Mr 9 hours a day(myself included)

 

[Kinetix]

Its a lot of little things working together to create a avalanche that is killing of UK DAOC.

When TOA came out, you lost your first round ofr oldschoolers, quite a few of which helped me when I first started. This didnt affect the game too much as people were returning after Star Wars.

With the incoming NF, you had every man and his dog powerlevelling his archerin places like AC, which was good for myself as I could almost always find a group to level with. This continued for a while after NF got released, it suddenly stopped when NF died down a lot.

Then, things like NF got released. Those rvrers, casual and elite alike, couldnt find the rvr as it was so big, though the first week of NF was a clusterfuck of new playstyles. Eventually, this died off when the outrageous siege times and daft relic keeps killed off rvr.

A few months down the line, WOW beta came out. Again, not that many left en masse as the rvr was still strong etc.

Then server crash. The main pve guilds, like Golem Girls, quit en masse in digust at GOA's lack of a response. Some people were waiting 8 months for a return, and people got pissed off.

Classic servers were introduced to counter the buffbot suiuation, something that back in the day was great for goa as you had 2 accounts for the price of one. The amount of people rvring without a bot was till fairly strong. With the onset of WoW, you had the few unbuffed players leave due to not being able to compete. But these classic servers diudnt last, the zerg nature of some french guilds pissed off the UK players, making them quit enmasse and leaving the server to die and eventually be clustered.

So what you have now is the core few who have been here years, bickering and fighting over the last drop in a barrel that was once overflowing. You have what once was a great game a shell of its former self, due to mismanagement from GOA and Mythic, playerstyles contrasting, forums such as this one when those squabbles would become flamewars, lack of oppourtunities for new players and stupid pve timers that meant Mr 3 hours every night couldnt compete with Mr 9 hours a day(myself included)

Couldnt aggree more

 

[Votan]

Nice post

I'd say its actually a combination of the two. Games get 'old' and people start losing interest and consequently move on to something else. With a healthy playerbase the current issues (on Dyvet) are much more likely to be hidden or go unnoticed. Once the population decline sets in the problems become more visible; this is where players can and do start to make a difference. The said difference can be positive or negative depending on who's left.
With the UK cluster of DAoC I'd venture to say that age started the decline, WoW accelerated it, and now it seems a reasonable portion of the active playerbase is busy 'killing it off' (if all the rvr threads are to be believed). Also some blame should be placed at GOA's feet for the mishandling of certain issues.
In the end its a 3 headed hydra that killed the game here.

 

[Benedictine]

Great OP. I haven't posted here for a while and just spent 5 mins typing only for my drunken fingers to delete a huge message. Pfft.

I don't play anymore, but was bored so wandered back to good old Freddys for a peek.

DAOC is a great success story whichever you look at it. Sadly, for me, it took a number of wrong turns which were corrected way too late. It's a bit like sticking a plaster on an arterial bleed. Or perhaps applying a leech to a gaping gunshot wound.

Someone said DAOC didn't die overnight. For me it did. I should point out I quit long term twice. Finally I gave up completely when my daughter was born and I turned 36 (ouch) :kissit:

To quote Fever Pitch my top ten all time great reasons for DAOC population decline:

1. TOA. This said to the average to serious PvPer 'grats on 50 and RRx. What you need to do now is what you did (and possibly didn't enjoy) for 6 months in order to carry on doing what you are now doing and have been doing for the last x years. I still have nightmares about camping artefacts and scrolls. I cancelled and was sad that I was losing a great peer group ( we still chat occasionally 6 years later).

2. Realm imbalance - I'm not talking toon types necessarily - perhaps more population. There was a game recently that allocated you to underpopulated realms - guild wars maybe. Right track I think but not very well thought through. There has got be a way to stop 700 albs en masse aganist 3 fg hibs (I played both and am therefore bi-partisan)

3. Time sinks - these were EVERYWHERE. From the much much delayed horses to crafting. It sapped my will to live at times and yet the game was generally great - for PvP I still have not played any other game that comes even close. I used to teach leadership for a living and I can honestly say if you want to learn anything about leadership and teamwork play DAOC.

4. Player attitudes certainly play a part. However, I would balance this against the fact that it is a game and games are generally a young person thing (or were). You maybe talking to Highbolk the Hairy but really you are talking to Anakin the 11 year old ASBO boy from Bradford. By the way I did actually meet someone called 'Anakin in a Blockbuster Video shop 2 years ago - poor kid.

5. RAs - I mean the silly ones not the original ones. Zephyr etc. It said to me - grats on being a decent player but because you chose to re-roll because your group/guild needed a <insert class here> you will forever be smashing your forehead against the monitor saying why Mythic WHY!

6. MY shitty connection at times - hardly anyone's fault but my ISP and BT

7. Other shiny new games that promised more and delivered less. Where should I start? Warcraft, Guild Wars, Vanguard, EQ2, I have forgotten most of them because my therapist says it's bad to remember

8. Friends - they pull you in and keep you there. Once it breaks down (for whatever reason) it removes the reason for being there. Especially when you have worked together for so long.

9. RL - maybe this should be further up. My then girlfriend/fiancée and now wife of 2 years really really got upset when I sat looking at SWG Chewbacca building a campfire at 2am andn said 'yeah but look at his FUR!!!! OK not DAOC but the point is the same.

10. Because at the end of the day you can't have fond memories if you are still doing it.

Enjoy DAOC and stop playing when you feel it's right

Benedictine.

 

[Zedenz]

All of what you said above is mostly wrong.

Sorry to say but DAoC (from a perspective of our two servers) has never been greatly populated, thats why we never needed more than 2 servers. The reason, is because even during the peak of play it was impossible to buy the fucking game anywhere, so you never had a constant stream of new players.

If you wanted to get a buddy to play in the old days, god help you.

The attitudes thing is bullshit, every single MMO on the market, from WoW to UO has the same types of players. Simply put if you had newbies coming in to play with other newbies this wouldn't have been a problem. The scaring of newbs is a by product of poor merchandising by GOA.


TOA/RA's/NF etc were all necessary to keep the core players playing and it worked. Simply put if TOA never came out the game would have died alooooong time ago, and I always said it. Proof is in the pudding, the classic servers came out, all the idiots proclaimed it the greatest thing since sliced bread and it died quicker than it filled up.

So to conclude, the game died over here quickly due to poor promotion by GOA NOTHING else.

Sorry I didnt read every post as they all seemed to reiterate the same tripe so I just replied, so I apologise if what I said has already been stated.

Man it's been a long time since I visited these forums.

Good day.

 

[Mas]

So to conclude, the game died over here quickly due to poor promotion by GOA NOTHING else.

WRONG!

Yes GOA are partly to blame but you cannot throw 100% of it in their face.

There are many reasons Dyvet has died a slow death, far too many to mention here, and each player has their own decision/reason for quitting or rolling US.

The game hasn't had much of an influx of new players in years and 2 or 3 years ago the population was fine (obviously not as good as a year or so before that).

Buffbots, DI Bots, elitists, greedy players, NF, AC Raids, Bugged Encounters, Banned for /emotes, Power hungry GM's, etc etc the list goes on and its never been one thing in particular, its been many, already to an aging 6 year old game that now has competition in other MMO's.

Mythic are just as responsible as GOA, as they work for Mythic in providing a service to European customers. Mythic should put a huge foot up GOA's backside and both should be looking into resolving the Dyvet situation. Perhaps English servers aren't seen as a profiting server so they are not bothered or its just more server space for WAR players to consume.

Seriously pinning the blame on GOA when you see the german servers flourishing is laughable, yes Dyvet has had its GOA influenced problems and the catastrophes like the Prywden database crash, but that is just part and parcel of the bottomless pit of problems over the years leading to its untimely demise.