That whole TT thing

[Appollo]

You know it's time for a thread to die when Andy is the voice of reason...

and off topic wtf did my pretty subsilver go?

It had to go cos u r prettier

 

[old.Whoodoo]

Speaking as one who has gone to the US, and knowing many others who have too, heres the real reasons why:

1. Too many self opinionated assholes who insist their way is the only way to play, if you dont fit their ideal you get insulted or to a degree bullied, and no one will enjoy playing a game where they feel uncomfortable with others.

2. The whole AC/TT thing showed the true colours of the players left here, selfish and ignorant of what players find fun. TT's actions promoted a great night of RvR, attacking defending, all part of the game. But, those who think it went against the "SotG" forgot that the players make the game fun, not the NPCs and decor. So over the time it happened, everyone on all sides got pissed off, RvR ground to a hault and many couldnt even be arsed to log in for one of the many reasons created in the aftermath.

3. Despite suggestions from the playerbase on how to improve the games image and get more people playing, they couldnt advertise bibles in a church. This meant the population decline was going to be worsened. Patching never improved, with us lagging 4-5 months at times behind the US. Anyone typing in "Dark Age of Camelot" or "DAoC" gets pointed at he US site, which is vastly better than the EU one, again despite the poluation complaining that the flash infested version we put up with is crap. Image means a lot.

4. The US player base still contains all walks of player, from the horner wannabes, to the new blood roged to the nines, so theres always someone equal to play against, whereas on EU its turned into a place where n00bs aint welcome (this has been said on here and IRC by so many people), and if you aint RR99 you are not welcome to join your realm m8s.

5. Realm cooperation - its gone, vanished 3-4 years ago. The pic below is one from the good ol days where during an RR, there was a whole load of action on both sides, if the same happens today, youll be lucky to get 10-12 people bothering, again because people cant be arsed anymore to share in the spoils of realm war, too many out for themselves.

The game here stopped being fun, restriced antisocial /as, anulaly retentive players, gestapo ran FGs, l33t wannabes, all stopped the rest having a laugh. Going US for many of us has been a breath of fresh air, logged in first day, got welcomed nicely with items, a little PL, random group invites (remember them!!?) and money to help us along the way, all the things missing from EU.

Read this thread again, and youll see the attitudes left behind, shame on some of them, they used to be nice people before they became RR99 got it all idiots.

As for the TT thing, after all I mention above, the Pryd incident, excuses about lag, bugs, poor customer service, this was the icing on the cake for a lot of us.

 

[charmangle]

I can´t seem to find a rule (as in law), stating that I`m not allowed to fart into your face.
You just can not write down rules to cover all situations. That´s what all it´s all about. Spamming /rude to a dead opponent is a perfectly legal game mechanisms. But at some point, it crosses the border to grieving, not through the game mechanics, but through the intention behind it. And come on! Especially YOU, being a teacher, should know the usual tactics of testing the limits and hiding behind constructed necessities and "oh, but noone said I can´t" to cover a blattant fraud.

I agree, but thats why you cant get thrown in jail for farting in someones face, without the law beeing rewritten that is. And Im not saying its okay to set a relic keep to lvl 1, what I am saying though is that GoA should have defined the rule by information instead of setting a presedense by punishing someone with a frame rule set up for emergencies.

I do know people will always try to push the limits of all the stated rules! But, unless its directly game destructive I really dont see the harm in informing about new rules before applying them.

If GoA had proved through logs that their intention was to be game destructive, doing it with the sole intention of griefing people. Then I had agreed that a ban would be ok. But to me it doesnt look like that was the case.

The reason is deeper and the incidents on this server are just the symptoms.

I couldnt agree more with this!

But the recent events did speed up the process of decay alot. As Old. says above, it was just the end straw for many of us. And with numbers already so low, it was a very hard blow to the server to loose that many players in one fell swoop.

Things should have been discussed, together with GoA representatives ALOT earlier (1-2 years ago). The problem is that GoA choose to get involved the (in my opinion) wrong way (by banning people), and now after disaster is very close to a fact, we start a discussion, were we get response from them. It just feels like its abit to late though, unfortunatly!/

/Charmangle

 

[Collateral]

CM > all

 

[Flimgoblin]

mmm, bile. lovely.

I'll try and repost the events without being biased (I'm not going to attribute motives as that would almost certainly bias things - you can get that from the comments of everyone else).

1. Some Albs ACed a relic and placed it in a keep owned by Black Falcons.
2. Black Falcons gave up their keep to TT who claimed it and set it to level 1 to make it easier for the enemy realms to retake the relic.
3. GOA classed this as working against their realm and against the spirit of the game and suspended the two people involved in the keep claiming/setting for a short time (5 days I think?).
4. People got upset, some moved servers, there was lots of drama on FH.


Now My opinion (which is almost certainly biased to a lesser or greater degree though I try to distance myself a bit I'm sure I fail miserably)

The problems are caused by the declining population - people bitch about things happening on Dyvet that they don't actually care about now they play on Avalon....

People are unhappy playing, this makes them grumpy, this makes them more likely to flame people over things they think ruin the game (for whatever reason, something small and annoying sticks and niggles, like adding or IRvR or stealthers or warlocks)

This leads to them quitting, a lot of them in this case used the GOA decision as an excuse. I'm sure some people have quit purely over the decision made by GOA, however a lot just moved server (and to another GOA server at that) which makes me think the majority of people leaving/moving were just unhappy playing (due to the declining numbers making RvR less fun).

Unfortunately all this anger is self-fueling, the bad feeling all this FH drama generates will do little but drive away players to other servers or out of the game.

I think Requiel was trying to defuse some of that anger/ill will with his Discussion thread. Trying to make people think "hang on, when did AC raids suddenly become the most heinous and evil griefing crime?"

The discussion got derailed to the TT suspension which is a different matter, but will forever be linked in the minds of FH posters.

I'd lock this since it's a bit redundant given the other thread, however I've posted some opinions here which is a bit unfair to leave unanswerable, so I'll leave it for now.

 

[Vonwar]

oh, and what i don`t get is why all the people who were that unhappy over the GOA rulling (GOA > MYTHIC imho) moved to another server owned by GOA and not to the US ?

playing on a server with more people was the main true motivation for many i would think.

Hey,

I know that the majority of the FH users wont like this, but even when Mulyatrix is an enemy, i have to admit that he has some good points, in what he is telling.

I play Midgard, only midgard, i have hibs on my account but they have been lvl 5 since the cluster.

If the same thing happened in our realm, namely that a guild claimed and held a keep containing a relic, and they put it down to lvl 1, i would see this as
treachery towards the realm they play for.

It is NOT up to the players to decide if their realm is too strong or not, through this the ppl from TT showed that they are untrustworthy in this situation. As i do not play on albion it is hard for me to say if those ppl have been loyal towards their realm or not in the past, but only thing there is to say is that when they make a statement like this, they are up for trouble, cause surely a lot of players enjoy the bonuses from an extra relic.

About AC raids, well most players that play rvr has been there im sure, i agree it is a bit anoying to log on after work, and see the relics are back in Albion, but there is nothing we can do about it. For the time beeing it has been Custodia and others taking relics, 1½ year ago we had some similar players on hibernia, doing excately the same show, for a period of 3-4 months. They stopped at some point, either cause they were boared or cause they moved to be doing something else.

All in all the threads on this subject and on relic taking in general are getting more and more rediculus, i wonder who play after this motto anymore

Priority:

Realm,
Guild,
Personal

It surely would be nice if ppl did so, but as long as ppl can play on more than one team / realm on a server clustering we will have the problem with un-loyal players towards the realm(s).



Best regards

Vonwar
Guildmaster of Danish Huscarls.

 

[old.Whoodoo]

Priority:

Realm,
Guild,
Personal

Wrong way round lad...thats OF style.

 

[Darzil]

Speaking as one who has gone to the US, and knowing many others who have too, heres the real reasons why:

1. Too many self opinionated assholes who insist their way is the only way to play, if you dont fit their ideal you get insulted or to a degree bullied, and no one will enjoy playing a game where they feel uncomfortable with others.

2. The whole AC/TT thing showed the true colours of the players left here, selfish and ignorant of what players find fun.

Ok, so I'm selfish and ignorant because I didn't leave the server ? Or are you trying post-modern satire and attaching the first point to yourself in the second ?

I just stayed because I have lots of friends here, and would rather PvE (and occasionally RvR) with them than head off to an unknown server and start again. RvR is about as enjoyable as it ever was, for me probably more enjoyable, as there are groups who'll settle for anyone to fill a last spot, rather than any RR9+ that they know, which helps me get more groups. RvR is much more fun if you don't read this forum, imo.

Darzil

 

[Vodkafairy]

oh, and what i don`t get is why all the people who were that unhappy over the GOA rulling (GOA > MYTHIC imho) moved to another server owned by GOA and not to the US ?

playing on a server with more people was the main true motivation for many i would think.

the community there is very disciplined so there is very little whine between the 'roleplayers' and 'leetists'. both have their own zone to play in and noone will whine. you should make a /level 20 char and try it someday, the zerg vs zerg fights there were yesterday are so totally your style

anyhoo, theres a lot of reasons for rerolls but 'ours' was that we just wanted more fg's to fight and thats basically it.

 

[old.Whoodoo]

Ok, so I'm selfish and ignorant because I didn't leave the server ? Or are you trying post-modern satire and attaching the first point to yourself in the second ?

I just stayed because I have lots of friends here, and would rather PvE (and occasionally RvR) with them than head off to an unknown server and start again. RvR is about as enjoyable as it ever was, for me probably more enjoyable, as there are groups who'll settle for anyone to fill a last spot, rather than any RR9+ that they know, which helps me get more groups. RvR is much more fun if you don't read this forum, imo.

Darzil

Sorry, I dont mean to tar everyone with that brush, many of my old freinds have remained here, cant say I blame some as the prospect of starting from scratch is deplorable to most. I posted (as usual) in haste about how I felt about the cluster from my own pov.

You are dead right about this forum, but most people who play games of this nature look for community based relations they can turn to for advice, help and the do's and dont do's for the game, yet a lot of people here say "feck off n00bs!" or words t that effect, which is a shame, as 4-5 years ago the game was such a freindly place to be.

 

[Sharkith]

Now My opinion (which is almost certainly biased to a lesser or greater degree though I try to distance myself a bit I'm sure I fail miserably)

The problems are caused by the declining population - people bitch about things happening on Dyvet that they don't actually care about now they play on Avalon....

I tend to agree with this view. Now if its true Flim then that means it will happen again and surely there is some responsibility on us all, GOA included, to pay attention to what has happened and then to try and find a way through it that suits as many people as possible. Knowing it can happen again because of game design makes the problem even more important.

 

[Belisar]

The problems are caused by the declining population

For sure.

If we could find an extra 1,000 peeps who want to RvR then statistically an element of them would be on during non-primetime hours. I think it makes AC raids or out of hours raids a lot less of an issue. It would also mean more peeps for the solo, FG or mass RvR peeps to have some fun with and thus the parts of the game that niggle and upset become less of an issue.

- people bitch about things happening on Dyvet that they don't actually care about now they play on Avalon....

Not sure about this. I suspect a good number of them would like to come back but not to the server as it stands. Not to a server where a few players can influence the game for a lot.

TT got banned (short term) for influencing the game in a way that was against the SotG. AC raids have been annoying peeps for a long time, they have made the game less fun and therefore less playable. They are only used by a small number of players and when a small number of players has such a huge influence over what is meant to be a mass rpg then the whole position needs to be reviewed.

I think Requiel was trying to defuse some of that anger/ill will with his Discussion thread. Trying to make people think "hang on, when did AC raids suddenly become the most heinous and evil griefing crime?"

I am sure Req's intentions were honourable. However even Req admits AC raids have been a source of annoyance and complaints (here on FH) for some time. As player numbers declined their impact got an awful lot worse. Sad part is in creating the thread Req admits there was never going to be an input from GOA which would calm things down. GOA prevented player action but are unable to do anything about it themselves. No one can win then.

The discussion got derailed to the TT suspension which is a different matter, but will forever be linked in the minds of FH posters.

I think the two are linked. Cannot speak for TT but it does seem that they wanted to do two things. Make a stand against AC raids and try to return a relic grabbed in one of them.

I know Muly disagrees and thinks that this is an excuse they dreamed up after the event but he has never said what other reason TT could have for lowering the level of the keep.

TT's actions were the final scene in a long drawn out play. The cause was AC raids. We (including GOA) have seen and known that they were causing increasing levels of damage and disharmony. Some chose to push it further, some backed off, some could do nothing but stand in the wings and shout and the only ones with any power believe they are unable to act.

Req says the game is more important than the community. He forgets, no community means no game.

 

[Flimgoblin]

RvR is much more fun if you don't read this forum, imo.

so true, but FH is sooo addictive

 

[Flimgoblin]

Req says the game is more important than the community. He forgets, no community means no game.

Warlocks were very damaging to the RvR fun of albion/hibernia pre-nerf, but noone started crusades in midgard to ban them (or if they did they kept it to sensible levels, noone went around actively trying to handicap their realm-mate warlocks, it stayed at the "pff, warlock, easymode" level of disdain).

AC raids are damaging to the RvR fun of whoever receives them, and something should be done to make it less annoying (what? I dunno... sealing the relic gates between X and Y hours just sounds wrong... the relic system just needs rethought from the ground up I'd say).

But it doesn't justify what TT did... the same way the pre-nerf warlock wouldn't justify their fellow mids going out of their ways to stop them levelling up or killing things in RvR, or in the same way it wouldn't be right for an alb to stalk horner and break his mezzes (or indeed, X random caster with DI bot).

If GOA hadn't acted in that case it would have eroded what little is left of the "realm/guild/player" thing that's there....

 

[pip]

People are upset about the constant ac'ing? and mythic doing nothing about it? just sitting there whatching the server die?as goes for wl there are far worse classes out there?

 

[pip]

But i agree with the TT thing but it would not of happened if mythic pulled there fingers out and sorted it before it went to far?

 

[Appollo]

TT's actions dont need justification as they was well in the boundries of the SOTG. Ill try and explain using roleplay:

"Damn those Albion fools! said <name removed for legal reasons>, they have brought shame and dishonour to our fair green lands by taking the one of the relics of Hibernia at an un-godly hour".

"Tis true comrade, said <name removed for legal reasons>, we should try and speak with the Black Falcons i have a cunning plan".

Are you getting me?

 

[Belisar]

Warlocks were very damaging to the RvR fun of albion/hibernia pre-nerf, but noone started crusades in midgard to ban them

Yup and that is a big point. People moaned about Warlocks and eventually they were nerfed. That maybe a reflection of Mythic picking up the moans and groans (via TL's) but eventually something did happen.

Nothing has been done about AC raids despite moans and groans reaching higher and higher levels.

AC raids are damaging to the RvR fun of whoever receives them, and something should be done to make it less annoying (what? I dunno... sealing the relic gates between X and Y hours just sounds wrong... the relic system just needs rethought from the ground up I'd say).

Yeah the game needs to be kept interesting for the late shift and that makes it a difficult job to find the right balance. Whatever they do someone will moan but I just think at the moment they have buried their heads in the sand.

But it doesn't justify what TT did

Not sure I agree. But I could see a downside to what TT did. What TT did has really highlighted the issue in a way no one had managed to do before. Perhaps it was the only way to bring this to a head.

What we all now need to do is move forwards somehow. I would hope GOA could help but it seems they cannot. It does seem to me that AC raids have eased somewhat since (or have I got that wrong).

The downside would no doubt have been that if TT had succeeded the relic would have been AC'd back anyway. Not sure if TT did what they did in order to try to give the relic back or in order to make a point to their fellow albs (or both).

If GOA hadn't acted in that case it would have eroded what little is left of the "realm/guild/player" thing that's there....

Would it ? Again I am not sure.

By acting GOA have added to the argument that was already there. They tell us that they can do nothing and they have prevented players from doing something. Result is a loss of the realm thing that was there for a number of players.

 

[Cromcruaich]

Warlocks were very damaging to the RvR fun of albion/hibernia pre-nerf, but noone started crusades in midgard to ban them (or if they did they kept it to sensible levels, noone went around actively trying to handicap their realm-mate warlocks, it stayed at the "pff, warlock, easymode" level of disdain).

I didnt find it very damaging at all to be honest. Most warlochs were easy meat even prenerf. Also, and this is taking the argument back a bit as what is more relevant is the way it was handled by GoA, as opposed to why the incident happened in the first place, but a warloch killing you can in no way be compared to the frustration that AC raids caused. But as said, that isnt the core issue anymore anyhow.

AC raids are damaging to the RvR fun of whoever receives them, and something should be done to make it less annoying (what? I dunno... sealing the relic gates between X and Y hours just sounds wrong... the relic system just needs rethought from the ground up I'd say).

Agree wholeheartedly.

But it doesn't justify what TT did... the same way the pre-nerf warlock wouldn't justify their fellow mids going out of their ways to stop them levelling up or killing things in RvR, or in the same way it wouldn't be right for an alb to stalk horner and break his mezzes (or indeed, X random caster with DI bot).

Goes back to initial point I made - the issue of contention isnt so much the TT action itself (they can choose to justify the action or not - just because an action is unjust or unfair in no way makes it deserve a suspension or direct intervention from the game admins), but the response illicited from GoA. Whether or not the action was justified within the context of the cluster at that time isn't relevant to many - its whether GoA's response was justified and proportional. What do you think Flim? Do you think the GoA solution to the specific issue of downgrading a keep was optimal?

 

[swifteagle]

I cant believe this is still going on after all this time tbh

If the people involved had been from an unknown guild or hated guild would the reaction have been the same and in such large numbers and with the results we have seen ?

It seems alot of it is more to do with the personalities involved rather than the principle of the thing if you look at it from a neutral point of view,TT had a good rep with the other realms and may have even talked to them on IRC and other ways of communication (not sure about this as I've never been one of the IRC crowd )and therefore it wasnt from an entirely neutral stand most of the outrage was being whipped up.

I'm not saying there was or is anything bad about this situation but as I said if it was CM who had got bans or some other guild that others werent really fond of would it have been such an issue ?

When all is said and done it was a 5 day ban,not a perma ban,from some of the reactions you'd think they'd been taken out strapped to a post and shot

 

[Flimgoblin]

a warloch killing you can in no way be compared to the frustration that AC raids caused.

I'm not so sure about that - "why bother RvRing, stupid warlocks ruin it, no fun at all" compared to "why bother RvRing, the albs will just steal our relics at 5am". Warlocks really did make any sort of siege action pretty un-fun...
(except unlike AC raids, higher population made it worse more bloody warlocks )

Having had to deal with both in the past (different realm doing the ACing of course) I can tell you it's the same feeling on the receiving end.

(didn't affect the 8v8 scene quite so badly I don't think? as not so many 8v8ers were rolling warlocks, correct me if I'm wrong)

Of course ACing has been around longer than warlocks but unfortunately Mythic have still to nerf it.

What do you think Flim? Do you think the GoA solution to the specific issue of downgrading a keep was optimal?

I can't say if it was optimal or not, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Permabanning would have been too much. They could have given a warning but I don't think a warning would have changed anything - it would have been cut and paste to FH and we'd have had exactly the same amount of drama.

 

[GrivneKelmorian]

TT thought they were god and had the right to direct the server towards an end that suited their purpose, contrary what the majority of their own realm thought.

GOA told them they were wrong.

they proved themselves unable to accept GOA`s decision.

though it wasnt TT nor BF themselfs who put the relic in that keep from the beginning.

 

[eble@work]

The whole AC whine is unfortunately a very English server cluster problem, almost to the point of being unique. Mythic have probably never heard of it.

The population numbers here would have brought about clustering again in the US.

Were stuffed, we know it, GOA knows it - we all know it I really can't be arsed ranting about it any longer.
\
Let all be friends enjoy what little of this game remains.

Eble

 

[swords]

Let. It. Die.

 

[Cromcruaich]

I'm not so sure about that - "why bother RvRing, stupid warlocks ruin it, no fun at all" compared to "why bother RvRing, the albs will just steal our relics at 5am". Warlocks really did make any sort of siege action pretty un-fun...
(except unlike AC raids, higher population made it worse more bloody warlocks )

Having had to deal with both in the past (different realm doing the ACing of course) I can tell you it's the same feeling on the receiving end.

(didn't affect the 8v8 scene quite so badly I don't think? as not so many 8v8ers were rolling warlocks, correct me if I'm wrong)

Of course ACing has been around longer than warlocks but unfortunately Mythic have still to nerf it.



I can't say if it was optimal or not, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Permabanning would have been too much. They could have given a warning but I don't think a warning would have changed anything - it would have been cut and paste to FH and we'd have had exactly the same amount of drama.

Warloch thing i guess depends on class, personally, like I say, always saw them as easy meat prenerf, well majority anyhow, couple you'd have to be careful around. Actually did quite a lot of soloing on eldie, so though i like my 8v8 i was out there on my own as well. Still maintain that the demoralising effect of utilising a whole realm to do a primetime relic raid, only for that to of been ac'd back in the morning is in no way comparable to lochs. And i'm afraid I cant be swayed on that one.

Reasons it is unreasonable have been stated - it's because there was nothing to indicate it was an offence or that is was an offence that could warrant a suspension, infact the precedant was quite the opposite. And additionally, it was unreasonable because no prior action was taken by GoA to talk with the involved party to come up with a resolution that was actually beneficial to the realm, rather than detrimental, as GoA's action clearly has been. As ive established, the action taken by GoA didnt even establish the outcome of a level 10 keep directly, which i'm sure was the reason people were complaining? (I'm sure it wasnt just spite and an effort to get a ban).

Requiel talks about not taking the path of least resistance, but his actions on this firmly demonstrate that that is exactly what was done - he let a simple ban ove right now handle the whole situation rather than a more subtle solution, such as actually talking to those people involved. Now you could argue that such a conversation wouldn't of yielded a different result, but the fact it wasnt even tried is negligent, and from the responses from TT, to me it looks like they would of responded in a reasonable and considered manner, imho at anyrate.

 

[Cromcruaich]

Let. It. Die.

One last push to get some sort of admission that the situation could of been handled better is all i'd like to see, and that is about the only thing that could make a difference to me, not sure if you feel that would be useful.

 

[swifteagle]

One last push to get some sort of admission that the situation could of been handled better is all i'd like to see, and that is about the only thing that could make a difference to me, not sure if you feel that would be useful.

It could have been handled better but from all sides tbh, as soon as TT started getting PMs from people annoyed about it they could have then said "ok we've made our stand and lowered it to level 1 and people have noticed and we'll put it back to level 9 or 10 now"

GoA could have spoken to them and said if you don't raise it or release it then you'll be banned .

The people posting about it on FH could have responded in a more mature way and accepted it was a low level ban ,the same amount of time you'd get for spamming emotes for instance.

I dont think anyone is blameless when it came to escalating the problem that the cluster had with people leaving,playstyles,clashes of personalities,griefers
and many more things contributed to it and this didnt help it either.

 

[Belgorian]

Let. It. Die.

I wonder if you mean the discussion or the Server??

________________________
Belgorian LVL50 Armsman
RR9L6-Guildmaster of LOE and
thoroughly nice chap!!

 

[Thadius]

I wonder if you mean the discussion or the Server??

________________________
Belgorian LVL50 Armsman
RR9L6-Guildmaster of LOE and
thoroughly nice chap!!

Think server and this dicussiona re both heading in the same direction!

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Think server and this dicussiona re both heading in the same direction!

You have to know.