That Virgin Galactic thing...

[Scouse]

So it appears that the co-pilot may have unlocked the feathering system when he shouldn't, aerodynamic forces may then have deployed the feathers, leading to the breakup of the aircraft.

Nah, he readied it - but it deployed independently of him without a command...

 

[TdC]

Nope. It's a different argument. Virgin Galactic are starting from the wrong place; Spaceship One is like more analogous to a prewar airship than a 747; they could both get you across the Atlantic, but only one was going to make an industry out of it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm desperate for a real space industry in my lifetime, but this is a red herring

I dunno chumlar. I am inclined to think Virgin have it by the good end of the stick here. First step, in-atmosphere, next one...bam!....Mars.

 

[DaGaffer]

I dunno chumlar. I am inclined to think Virgin have it by the good end of the stick here. First step, in-atmosphere, next one...bam!....Mars.

How? The design can't carry the delta v to go anywhere useful, nor could it ever.

 

[Job]

Well Mars is hardly useful..it's about the human spirit of adventure built into us by millions of years of succeeding by taking chances which we seem to be devolutionising back into risk fear.

 

[TdC]

Not this design, I'm talking acceptance by the average Joe. Remember Stephenson's Rocket? People thought they were going to die if their bodies were subjected to the amazing 10 mph or whatever it was. Call me a nutter but I think Virgin has a winner, no foolies.

 

[Raven]

Yup, its not just purely scientific or engineering gains that will be made but sociological. Improvements will be made and private industry will make the next steps to getting into space, without the need to worry about the restraints of NASA and the like.

NASA can't turn up and say they will spank billions of dollars to put rich people into a space hotel, Virgin and co can.

If it takes rich people getting their jollies from space flight to make it affordable then so be it. The same thing happened with all sorts of things from trans continental flight to TVs to cars.

Personally I am excited by the fact that within my lifetime I can reasonably expect man to get into space for shits and giggles as well as scientific purposes.

 

[DaGaffer]

Not this design, I'm talking acceptance by the average Joe. Remember Stephenson's Rocket? People thought they were going to die if their bodies were subjected to the amazing 10 mph or whatever it was. Call me a nutter but I think Virgin has a winner, no foolies.

Its not this design, its this concept. If you increase the fuel load/rocket size of the spaceplane, you have to increase the size of the mother ship, but you quickly get into diminishing returns because the spaceplane can never carry enough fuel on its own to sustain orbit even if the mothership was the largest plane in the world. There was a plan for "Spaceship Three" to launch satellites and be fully orbital, but its been quietly dropped because the maths doesn't work. The only way around the problem is radically more efficient engines, but if you have those, you're still better off putting them in a conventional lifter because you'll be able to carry a bigger payload for the same thrust. That's why this doesn't work, its not competitive against other solutions that already exist.

Yup, its not just purely scientific or engineering gains that will be made but sociological. Improvements will be made and private industry will make the next steps to getting into space, without the need to worry about the restraints of NASA and the like.

NASA can't turn up and say they will spank billions of dollars to put rich people into a space hotel, Virgin and co can.

If it takes rich people getting their jollies from space flight to make it affordable then so be it. The same thing happened with all sorts of things from trans continental flight to TVs to cars.

Personally I am excited by the fact that within my lifetime I can reasonably expect man to get into space for shits and giggles as well as scientific purposes.

I'm not arguing against the rich funding space travel, I'm just arguing against this particular solution. The only advantage of Virgin Galactic is that it has an element of "ordinary people can do this" about it, that regular stacks can't emulate because they're associated with governments and missiles, but that can only take you so far if the concept can't ultimately do the job its supposed to do.

 

[Hawkwind]

Us old buggers remember HOTOL..the one Maggie pulled the plug on..probably a good call but imagine having that baby parked at Heathrow..if we don't have dreams we might as well stay poor.

Seriously British Waste of Space making a spaceship, it was doomed the moment they thought of it. Also bad timing on the back end of the disaster that was Nimrod. Which wasted billions of taxpayers money and never actually worked effectively, finally put in a lead lined coffin and buried in 2010. I know much of the blame lies with GEC Marconi working the radar but they (BAe) were the lead contractor and integrator.

 

[Tom]

Nah, he readied it - but it deployed independently of him without a command...

If you unlock the bonnet latch on your car and then drive at 100mph, it will open without your command.

 

[Tom]

How? The design can't carry the delta v to go anywhere useful, nor could it ever.

No, but if this venture is profitable then perhaps their next design will.

 

[Gwadien]

Seriously British Waste of Space making a spaceship, it was doomed the moment they thought of it. Also bad timing on the back end of the disaster that was Nimrod. Which wasted billions of taxpayers money and never actually worked effectively, finally put in a lead lined coffin and buried in 2010. I know much of the blame lies with GEC Marconi working the radar but they (BAe) were the lead contractor and integrator.

We're not doing it though, so it's not taxpayers?

Tbh I agree with Gaffer, they don't seem to be creating new ideas, just trying old ones, so long as the private industry is pushing the boundaries, I'm happy.

 

[Scouse]

If you unlock the bonnet latch on your car and then drive at 100mph, it will open without your command.

I don't think you can realistically draw that comparison. It sounded like he'd readied some electronics, not "popped a latch".

 

[DaGaffer]

Seriously British Waste of Space making a spaceship, it was doomed the moment they thought of it. Also bad timing on the back end of the disaster that was Nimrod. Which wasted billions of taxpayers money and never actually worked effectively, finally put in a lead lined coffin and buried in 2010. I know much of the blame lies with GEC Marconi working the radar but they (BAe) were the lead contractor and integrator.

I was actually working at BAe when the first HOTOL announcements were made. It was fairly obvious from the start that it couldn't be developed in the UK alone, but then it also became clear that the whole thing was vapourware anyway. Its successor, Skylon, doesn't seem to be much further down the road either. The concept is actually good (because it gets around a lot of those weight/thrust/fuel issues that make the Virgin thing a limited concept), but its predicated on technologies that don't actually exist yet.

 

[Job]

If you read the wiki it says they canned it because you could get the same performance from ordinary rockets for less.
Just buy a Russian rocket..most reliable evah.

 

[Hawkwind]

I was actually working at BAe when the first HOTOL announcements were made

Was that at MAD Brough or Warton? They moved the Wind Tunnel from Brough a while back I seem to remember.

I think it was very pie in the sky stuff back then but then the research usually gets used elsewhere so not entirely a waste. People blaming Maggie for killing it is just hilarious.

 

[Hawkwind]

If you read the wiki it says they canned it because you could get the same performance from ordinary rockets for less.
Just buy a Russian rocket..most reliable evah.

I would not call Russian Rockets reliable, lost a few satellites over the past couple of years and most launches have suffered huge delays and cost overruns.

 

[DaGaffer]

Was that at MAD Brough or Warton? They moved the Wind Tunnel from Brough a while back I seem to remember.

I think it was very pie in the sky stuff back then but then the research usually gets used elsewhere so not entirely a waste. People blaming Maggie for killing it is just hilarious.

The HOTOL stuff came out of Wharton I think. Wind tunnel was still at Brough when I was there, but that was a loooong time ago.

 

[Hawkwind]

The HOTOL stuff came out of Wharton I think. Wind tunnel was still at Brough when I was there, but that was a loooong time ago.

Good old Lytham where the north goes to die Worked on Hawk and EFA head down and head up displays there in mid 90's