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Deebs

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To add, last month DOGE created over 2,000 millionaires if they realise their gains.
 

SilverHood

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To add, last month DOGE created over 2,000 millionaires if they realise their gains.
As soon as they sell, it's going to collapse the price? I mean, it's a good gig if you got in early. Just don't be the one holding the bag at the end!
 

Deebs

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As soon as they sell, it's going to collapse the price? I mean, it's a good gig if you got in early. Just don't be the one holding the bag at the end!
Yes, it is a car crash waiting to happen. I suspect just before Elon is on SNL talking about it (this Saturday), people will realise their gains.
 

Gwadien

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Yes, it is a car crash waiting to happen. I suspect just before Elon is on SNL talking about it (this Saturday), people will realise their gains.
Isn't the same true for all the other crytpos though? They're just bigger?

Like if Tesla decided to abandon bit coin I'm fairly sure it will collapse?
 

Deebs

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Isn't the same true for all the other crytpos though? They're just bigger?

Like if Tesla decided to abandon bit coin I'm fairly sure it will collapse?
Not really, Telsa holds 1.5billion USD, there are other companies which hold way more than this. They are small fry. Look at the market cap of each coin.

I get that some of you are wary and you are quite right to be, for those willing to take the risk the rewards are huge.

Cryptocurrency is not going away, whether decentralised or government backed, it is the next thing.
 

Raven

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I still just dont get it (and maybe never will)

Correct me where I am sure I am wrong.

Basically Bitcoin isn't a thing, as in it isn't a tangible item, like a stock or a share.
It creates a huge demand for power to create and in its current form will likely wipe out any work done to actually stop climate change, just so some folk can sit on a pile of money (sound familiar?)
It doesn't seem to actually do anything that can't be done already.
It changes in value so quickly and so often and appears to be so simple to manipulate (driven mostly by people who think they are missing out on something), surely it can't be considered a safe investment?

I'm not a luddite by any stretch of the imagination, but change should be for improvement and I just don't see one.

I could get behind the obscene power usage if it was doing something useful, like splitting proteans, decrypting radio waves (SETI etc) or any other area of science where large processing needs to be done, often large amounts of small bits of data, but making people money? No, not for me.
 

Deebs

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I still just dont get it (and maybe never will)

Correct me where I am sure I am wrong.

Basically Bitcoin isn't a thing, as in it isn't a tangible item, like a stock or a share.
It creates a huge demand for power to create and in its current form will likely wipe out any work done to actually stop climate change, just so some folk can sit on a pile of money (sound familiar?)
It doesn't seem to actually do anything that can't be done already.
It changes in value so quickly and so often and appears to be so simple to manipulate (driven mostly by people who think they are missing out on something), surely it can't be considered a safe investment?

I'm not a luddite by any stretch of the imagination, but change should be for improvement and I just don't see one.

I could get behind the obscene power usage if it was doing something useful, like splitting proteans, decrypting radio waves (SETI etc) or any other area of science where large processing needs to be done, often large amounts of small bits of data, but making people money? No, not for me.
Bitcoin and other PoW coins are actually pushing for greener power as they need that to maximise their profits. Just google it. Most of bitcoin (esp in China) is mined where the electricity is green and moves with the seasons.

It does more than what FIAT does. Every transaction is public and cannot be changed or hidden away. Over 90% of every single USD has coke on it, people say crypto is used for illegal use, better fact check that.

There is no obscene power usage. If Bitcoin and other coins were not using that power (mostly green) it will be used elsewhere.

A safe investment? If you bought bitcoin several years ago you would be a millionaire or billionaire by now. How are your FIAT savings in the centralised bank doing?

Put it this way, my crypto holdings in the last week have risen by over 30%. Has your FIAT?

Oh and bother to read the power usage of netflix I posted earlier. More than the UK and for what? To put moving pictures inside my lounge.
 

Aoami

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I'm just using it as a method of saving at the moment as it's only going up. My portfolio has doubled in value in 4 months, so even if there is a big crash i will probably be fine. In the process of moving house so may need to take my money out soon.
 

Raven

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Bitcoin and other PoW coins are actually pushing for greener power as they need that to maximise their profits. Just google it. Most of bitcoin (esp in China) is mined where the electricity is green and moves with the seasons.

It does more than what FIAT does. Every transaction is public and cannot be changed or hidden away. Over 90% of every single USD has coke on it, people say crypto is used for illegal use, better fact check that.

There is no obscene power usage. If Bitcoin and other coins were not using that power (mostly green) it will be used elsewhere.

A safe investment? If you bought bitcoin several years ago you would be a millionaire or billionaire by now. How are your FIAT savings in the centralised bank doing?

Put it this way, my crypto holdings in the last week have risen by over 30%. Has your FIAT?

Oh and bother to read the power usage of netflix I posted earlier. More than the UK and for what? To put moving pictures inside my lounge.

The Netflix thing was proven to be a falacy using incorrect figures. And the power would certainly be used elsewhere, which would mean it would not be necessary to use dirty methods elsewhere. And even if true, does that mean I can just go out and buy a nice V8 just because China are still burning tyres or whatever?

There is a massive cognitive dissonance here, it uses huge amounts of power simply to deliver financial reward, that's my problem with it.
 

Deebs

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The Netflix thing was proven to be a falacy using incorrect figures. And the power would certainly be used elsewhere, which would mean it would not be necessary to use dirty methods elsewhere. And even if true, does that mean I can just go out and buy a nice V8 just because China are still burning tyres or whatever?

There is a massive cognitive dissonance here, it uses huge amounts of power simply to deliver financial reward, that's my problem with it.
Then cryptocurrency is not for you. I will continue to invest money I can afford to lose and reap the rewards.
 

Raven

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OK, nobody is saying don't do it, go nuts.

But you still haven't explained what it is, just that you have money in it because everyone else is doing it :)

That's how Ponzi schemes work :) except Ponzi schemes rarely consume the same power as some western countries.

I also have a small amount of LTC, which I laugh at the fluctuations nearly every day (Well not laugh but wonder wtf is going on)
 

Gwadien

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The Netflix thing was proven to be a falacy using incorrect figures. And the power would certainly be used elsewhere, which would mean it would not be necessary to use dirty methods elsewhere. And even if true, does that mean I can just go out and buy a nice V8 just because China are still burning tyres or whatever?

There is a massive cognitive dissonance here, it uses huge amounts of power simply to deliver financial reward, that's my problem with it.
Whilst I probably won't touch Crypto (unless dark webbing) I do feel like all the hatred towards it due to the power it uses is a bit silly.

Nobody had suggested that we should reduce our energy consumption across the board - obviously we should make things as efficienct as possible, but we need more green energy as opposed to picking on threats to established wealth whilst their established wealth has also been created by using dirty energy.
 

Deebs

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OK, nobody is saying don't do it, go nuts.

But you still haven't explained what it is, just that you have money in it because everyone else is doing it :)

That's how Ponzi schemes work :) except Ponzi schemes rarely consume the same power as some western countries.

I also have a small amount of LTC, which I laugh at the fluctuations nearly every day (Well not laugh but wonder wtf is going on)
Look up smart contracts, DeFi. Everyone is afraid of losing control.

Btw, how much power does the US military use to back the USD?
 

Deebs

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Whilst I probably won't touch Crypto (unless dark webbing) I do feel like all the hatred towards it due to the power it uses is a bit silly.

Nobody had suggested that we should reduce our energy consumption across the board - obviously we should make things as efficienct as possible, but we need more green energy as opposed to picking on threats to established wealth whilst their established wealth has also been created by using dirty energy.
Crypto pushes for more greener energy and PoS is 99.99% more efficient.

My ADA staking gives me over 5% APY, my FIAT holdings give 0.1%. Guess where I am putting my money.
 

Gwadien

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Musk can type anything on his Twitter and it'll affect his stock price in some random direction.

A few years back Tesla was the most shorted stock on the markets by lots of the major hedge funds and brokerages and *coincidentally* there was a sudden surge in negative stories about Tesla cars and crashes they were involved in and negative media about Elon.

Stock trading and the markets are a seedy business already, crypto is simply a more extreme case.
Funnily enough I just went through my Facebook video feed and it appears that there's YouTubers who are committed to shit talking Teslas, very very weird.
 

Scouse

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Look up smart contracts, DeFi. Everyone is afraid of losing control.

Btw, how much power does the US military use to back the USD?
This is sort of the point really @Raven.

Bitcoin was born out of the financial crash of 2008 and the criminal money mismanagement that brought it about - criminal on the part of the central banks and their (more) private banking counterparts.

It's an immutable fully publically-viewable ledger that can be used both as a store of value and to transfer that value across boundaries, outside of centralisable control.

The reason it's being given value by humans (because that's how all of these things have value - the dollar is backed by dick, tbpfh) is because people see utility. They saw this utility long before it became what it's currently worth - and it's only worth what it's currently worth because institutional investors see that value too.

The criticism of power usage by BTC is legitimate - but it's being taken at face value, without understanding that as a transparent global value store and transfer medium it offers quite a lot - and nobody is comparing it to the other non-transparent mechanisms we have of doing this and their environmental impact. And, again, it's not a valid criticism for all cryptos - and the narrative seems to be driven by people who stand to lose some measure of their control.

Yes, there's money to be made and lost here. But massive fluctuations are to be expected - but if you look at the maths of it - the variablility is coming down - they're becoming more stable with time.

But their value is real. It's now just a question of which (of the very many) will be most widely adopted and "win out".
 

Raven

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You're still not explaining what it actually is and what it does though :)

I get how it works in regard to transactions (sort of) but that's about it.

Please explain.
 
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Scouse

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You're still not explaining what it actually is and what it does though :)
Actually. For bitcoin I have:
It's an immutable fully publically-viewable ledger that can be used both as a store of value and to transfer that value across boundaries, outside of centralisable control.
That in and of itself is huge.

An immutable ledger. Unfalsifiable - so can't be doctored by criminals. Like banks and governments.
A publically viewable ledger. You can read it. Every transaction. You ask Barclays to show you their books and see where that gets you.
Store of value. Like gold. But better, because it's gold you can do stuff with. If you buy gold on the market you can't actually get hold of the gold or do anything with it.
You can move it across any border, to anyone with a wallet. It's tradeable.
Outside of centralisable control - so governments can't fuck with it.

That last point - about 20% of all dollars that have ever existed, ever, have been "printed" (i.e. made up out of thin air) by the US last year.

Now, if you know your history - it's not traditionally a great thing for the value of a currency when it's being printed at a huge rate. It usually causes the value of the thing to drop through the floor and generally comes with massive runaway inflation. So what's keeping the dollar there, right now. And have we got a massive problem coming right at us?

Bitcoin is a hedge against inflation. (Which is why you see people in countries that have runaway inflation (loaf of bread at 10p in the morning, £10 at night) opting into crypto). And it's in nobody's control - which is great.

Aside from that - talk to @caLLous about Ethereum. Smart contracts. DeFi. Loads of things that could be potentially transformative on the back of blockchain.



Like I said - it's potentially transformative. I know you've dismissed it "in regard to transactions" - but transactional activity make up the backbone of societies. Any change to how we transact is a big change. And potentially a fundamental one.
 

Raven

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Actually. For bitcoin I have:

That in and of itself is huge.

An immutable ledger. Unfalsifiable - so can't be doctored by criminals. Like banks and governments.
A publically viewable ledger. You can read it. Every transaction. You ask Barclays to show you their books and see where that gets you.
Store of value. Like gold. But better, because it's gold you can do stuff with. If you buy gold on the market you can't actually get hold of the gold or do anything with it.
You can move it across any border, to anyone with a wallet. It's tradeable.
Outside of centralisable control - so governments can't fuck with it.
OK, that bit I understand, but why is this unique for bitcoin? There is no reason why this could not be adopted en masse, really.
That last point - about 20% of all dollars that have ever existed, ever, have been "printed" (i.e. made up out of thin air) by the US last year.
As opposed to what? How is the value of bitcoin generated? How are bitcoins generated, except, pretty much out of thin air? (if only it cost just air)
Now, if you know your history - it's not traditionally a great thing for the value of a currency when it's being printed at a huge rate. It usually causes the value of the thing to drop through the floor and generally comes with massive runaway inflation. So what's keeping the dollar there, right now. And have we got a massive problem coming right at us?
the only thing keeping bitcoin high is supply/demand and the huge amount of people driving inflation in value through the fear of missing out. That bubble will burst, horribly. I'm not saying it's not a thing to stay, as an idea, and I am not commenting on what good it might do eventually (because I don't understand)
Bitcoin is a hedge against inflation. (Which is why you see people in countries that have runaway inflation (loaf of bread at 10p in the morning, £10 at night) opting into crypto). And it's in nobody's control - which is great.
? Bitcoin has inflated in price at a staggering rate and has been massively manipulated to rise and fall by the exact same people sat on vast sums of paper money to generate even more vast sums of money. Your bitcoins have very little value anyway until converted to 'real' currency money.

Like I said - it's potentially transformative. I know you've dismissed it "in regard to transactions" - but transactional activity make up the backbone of societies. Any change to how we transact is a big change. And potentially a fundamental one.
I've not dismissed anything, except for the fact that a lot of people, that don't understand it are gambling vast sums of money on it and it is then manipulated by hedge funds and billionaires and the only people that will lose out are small-time investors. Out with the old boss, in with the new.
 

Scouse

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OK, that bit I understand, but why is this unique for bitcoin?
Because it is? That's it's thing. Nothing else does all of that.

There is no reason why this could not be adopted en masse, really.
That'd be great. En-masse adoption of bitcoin/crypto. Brill.

As opposed to what? How is the value of bitcoin generated?
How is value derived? This is a very esoteric argument which we could devote books to - but the short short version is: Value is what we give things.

Bitcoin is no less deserving of this than Fiat. And with it's advantages - likely more deserving of that value because it's a fully known quantity with multiple advantages.



the only thing keeping bitcoin high is supply/demand and the huge amount of people driving inflation in value through the fear of missing out. That bubble will burst, horribly.
Or, alternatively, crypto is the beginning of the start of something that will tranform how humans hold and transfer value and if mass adoption happens we'll look at the 50k a bitcoin (or whatever) right now and marvel at how cheap it was.

Divide all the money in the world by 23 million @Raven.

Bitcoin has inflated in price at a staggering rate
Not really IMO. Especially given the oppositional headwinds it's faced (and is facing) from some of the world's most powerful players.

lot of people, that don't understand it are gambling vast sums of money on it
Welcome to investing. On a new transparent platform, not controlled by governments.


Look. We could go around in circles. But if we look at the head of JP Morgan - Jamie Dimon. He called it a massive criminal con and scam. Now he's admitted he was wrong, that he didn't have a fucking clue what he was talking about and is preparing offerings to his clients because the penny is finally beginning to drop with him.

Even if it's a new boss @Raven, I'd love to see out with the old boss. And if that's even part of what this gets us, I'm all for it.
 

Raven

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But it's not some sort of user (if that is the right word) controlled panacea.

You're just refreshing the pieces on the board, currency, whatever that might be will be controlled by the few that have it (in any sort of important sum) and other than some sort of mass psychological and physical shift to humanity where real value is what you can do, not what/who you can exploit that will remain the case.

Maybe it's like VR, once you have tried it you are hooked, but nobody* is trying it, because it doesn't pay the rent.

*as in normal people. If anything it's a toy for the rich at the moment.
 

Scouse

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currency, whatever that might be will be controlled by the few that have it
No.

They'll have it. They already do. They just won't control it.

They can't print it. They can't devalue it. They can't charge interest on it. They'll be bound by the same rules as everyone.


Amongst all the other advantages.
 

Moriath

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No.

They'll have it. They already do. They just won't control it.

They can't print it. They can't devalue it. They can't charge interest on it. They'll be bound by the same rules as everyone.


Amongst all the other advantages.
Money is a human concept and only is a thing because we all accept it represents a value.
but that money has the backing of governments which is the thing that keeps it relatively stable.
the decentralisation thing with no entity to guarantee it. Then its always going to be riskier.
 

Raven

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No.

They'll have it. They already do. They just won't control it.

They can't print it. They can't devalue it. They can't charge interest on it. They'll be bound by the same rules as everyone.


Amongst all the other advantages.
They don't need to print it, they just need to own it...and if anything can be learned from the last year or so, they can most certainly manipulate its value to make easy money.

But like I say, Bitcoin doesn't produce anything, it doesn't create anything, it doesn't feed the family, so what use is it to the vast majority of humanity, except for a brand-new-but-the-same form of currency?
 

Raven

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Edit timeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer....

Who the fuck knows, but the point is, lots of people that already earned lots of cash off the back of others are making ridiculous amounts of cash from crypto and lots of small players may well think they have a solid investment (because it's new and underground and sticking it to the man or whatever and their investment has jumped 200% in a week!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) but frankly, they are being set up as complete chumps and will get well and truly rinsed.
 

Scouse

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Bitcoin doesn't produce anything, it doesn't create anything, it doesn't feed the family
You can't eat the dollar bill either.

If you can't yet comprehend what the advantages describe above mean in benefit for all of us then meh. Can't do much else. Maybe someone else'll have a go :)

But eff BTC off - maybe read up on ETH and see what other benefits crypto and blockchain can bring.
 

Scouse

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frankly, they are being set up as complete chumps and will get well and truly rinsed.
If that's how you feel then don't invest in it. Stick to lower risk investments. Simples.
 

Raven

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Already spent it and only bought it out of necessity.

And I dabble, because it's so easy to make short wins. I used to bet on football and once made enough over a season to buy a new PC, I now fuck about with crypto because its just easier.

Talking £100 or so profit on a good month, fuck all most of the time but it's sure easier than football betting.

Edit, and I know fuck all about it, just that it fluctuates so much that only an idiot couldn't make real cash out of it atm.
 
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