FH news Steven Hawking reverses opinion on God!

[Bugz]

Misdefinition isn't a reason for God existing though.

If I misdefine a cow as a martian - it doesn't mean the martian exists. It just means that I'm a tit.

So while you meant to prove to Scouse that God does exist, what you meant was "some people think it's God, when it's actually their beliefs." ?

 

[Scouse]

That would be your problem, praying for a bigger dick or some such isn't exactly what praying is about.

Whilst just posting this should be self-explanatory I'll still provide the explanation:

Praying isn't about "things" because it's bullshit.


Praying is about people conning themselves into believing that something good that they've done for themselves in their lives must have some metaphysical connection to a non-existent deity. It's about stealing the kudos off people for making their own lives better and giving it to a god.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Bugz; If a martian was defined as "black&white thing on field, eating grass, saying moo and making darn good burgers" then yes, that thing on the field could be called a martian.

I'm saying that misdefinition is the reason you can't prove god, but if god is misdefined to begin with, then the theory can hold, which is just what i'm giving, another definition for god which doesn't involve sky fairies. A theory, an actual power to change peoples lives.

Prayer/belief/etc can do that, that is a fact.

Scouse for f*cks sake forget your hangups for one discussion.

Yes i know you have a zealot approach to any word that can be in even the vicinity of religion, we all get it

 

[Scouse]

- Prayer/belief is to ask for X.
- Prayer/belief gives you X. (like strength to get through(no bikes and bigger dicks don't come true )
- Prayer/belief is the thing that gives you X and as such, prayer/belief is giving the same thing that your prayer target is asked to give.
- Prayer/belief is the god.

Definition wrong.

I read it more like above = bullshit.

-pray for X (as long as it's nothing tangible)
-prayer/belief gives you nothing tangible, because it can't. Nothing beyond the placebo effect.
-prayer/belief, at best, giving placebo effect X
- Therefore god = placebo effect.


When you restrict what prayer can give to nothing more than the placebo effect, then the placebo effect is what god is restricted to...

Handily:

I'm saying that misdefinition is the reason you can't prove god, but if god is misdefined to begin with, then the theory can hold, which is just what i'm giving, another definition for god which doesn't involve sky fairies. A theory, an actual power to change peoples lives.

And what you describe in your "theory" is the placebo effect

 

[old.Tohtori]

I'm not gonna get into another derail speech with you. Cherry picking i believe you said?

 

[Scouse]

And there's the denial side of the equation in action.


Why is it difficult for you to concede your theory is aptly described by the phenomenon called the placebo effect?

 

[DaGaffer]

Bugz; If a martian was defined as "black&white thing on field, eating grass, saying moo and making darn good burgers" then yes, that thing on the field could be called a martian.

I'm saying that misdefinition is the reason you can't prove god, but if god is misdefined to begin with, then the theory can hold, which is just what i'm giving, another definition for god which doesn't involve sky fairies. A theory, an actual power to change peoples lives.

Prayer/belief/etc can do that, that is a fact.

Scouse for f*cks sake forget your hangups for one discussion.

Yes i know you have a zealot approach to any word that can be in even the vicinity of religion, we all get it

So, just to be clear, in your definition, "God" is entirely inside your head?

 

[old.Tohtori]

And there's the denial side of the equation in action.

Why is it difficult for you to concede your theory is aptly described by the phenomenon called the placebo effect?

It's an ignore side to cherry picking lines and putting words in mouth.

The thing is, belief, prayer gives hope/strength/etc. You can't deny it doesn't. Same way as your family can give you strength and so on. That is not a placebo since you can't measure strength or hope levels with a gauge, except in " i do have hope/willpower/strength". Furthermore you claimed god is a placebo, which i never disputed.

Unless ofcourse you are saying that love from family, support from family etc are just placebos, which is another discussion entirely.

So, just to be clear, in your definition, "God" is entirely inside your head?

Just to be clear; i never discussed "god"(the being), i said that the effect of praying gives the same effect prayer is directed at. In other words; praying gives what you pray from god. Action is the target.

 

[dysfunction]

So if you prayed for something and it didn't come about then does that mean there is no god?

To answer my own question. No it wouldn't because the person doing the praying still believes there is a god regardless of the outcomes of the prayers.

So your theory is a tad rubbish

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well it would be a tad rubbish if i even tried to shove a god being in there

That seems to be a huge stepping stone for some people.

But to answer your, meh, analogy; god isn't an automated wish granter in any definition.

 

[yaruar]

So, just to be clear, in your definition, "God" is entirely inside your head?

Poor god.

 

[Scouse]

god isn't an automated wish granter in any definition.

Wonder why, eh?

 

[Wij]

Well it would be a tad rubbish if i even tried to shove a god being in there

That seems to be a huge stepping stone for some people.

But to answer your, meh, analogy; god isn't an automated wish granter in any definition.

So if the person gets what they pray for then it's proof prayer works but if they don't then it isn't evidence that prayer doesn't work ? I could prove that you are a kiddie-fiddler or that 9/11 was done by Frank Bough if I could pick and choose my evidence like that.

 

[Scouse]

What? An accusation of cherry picking? In a thread like this? Shame on you! Toht has the highest* standards of evidence.












*by highest I mean he's got standards because he believes in them

 

[old.Tohtori]

So if the person gets what they pray for then it's proof prayer works but if they don't then it isn't evidence that prayer doesn't work ? I could prove that you are a kiddie-fiddler or that 9/11 was done by Frank Bough if I could pick and choose my evidence like that.

I never claimed prayer works for all things, but neither have i seen/heard anyone claiming that prayer can't help period. Hard to say as it does help in some instances.

If you want to continue the "praying to god works/doesn't" line though, i'll pass as i never discussed it beyond that counter to the analogy given(which wasn't here nor there regarding).

And even then I simply stated that prayer has in no context been said as a 100% wish granter.

What? An accusation of cherry picking? In a thread like this? Shame on you! Toht has the highest* standards of evidence.

What evidence would you like? What need of clinical evidence has there been?

I wouldn't talk about cherry picking when you only start talking when you see some line you can either take out of context or have some "snappy" comeback to. (as proven(there's yer proof) on this thread already).

 

[ford prefect]

As I have said in other threads, I am agonstic. What I will add though, is that for people of faith prayer often grants hope, which isn't in and of itself a bad thing, especially combined with the human instinct for survival.

Back on topic, I belive Hawking mearly said that god wasn't required to create the universe. I am a little confused as to why this has come as a shock. M-theory, all of the super string theories and Quantum Mechanics specifically (which is why Einstein had such a problem with it), have been pointing towards this for over three quarters of a century.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Maybe ford can answer if Hawking believes/doesn't in the existance of god at all?

Hard to get an answer from the anti-everything lot(ironic).

 

[Scouse]

I never claimed prayer works for all things, but neither have i seen/heard anyone claiming that prayer can't help period. Hard to say as it does help in some instances.

I've never said water always cures AIDS, I've just said that I've not got AIDS and I drink a lot of water so it must help cure AIDS in some instance, eh?

Apart from with Wazz, of course. No amount of water would help him. But that's not proof that water doesn't cure AIDS tho...

 

[old.Tohtori]

I've never said water always cures AIDS, I've just said that I've not got AIDS, I drink a lot of water so it must help cure AIDS in some instance, eh?

Cherry picking and avoiding the question with ridicilums.

Are you claiming, yes or no, that prayer can't give hope, strength, willpower and so on?

 

[Krazeh]

Are you claiming, yes or no, that prayer can't give hope, strength, willpower and so on?

Of course it can but it's still a placebo.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Of course it can but it's still a placebo.

So you're saying self confidence, support from family, good health(which effects mind) and so forth are also placebos?

In fact; anything that affects your emotions, wills to live, strength, hope, and so on so on are placebos?

 

[ford prefect]

Maybe ford can answer if Hawking believes/doesn't in the existance of god at all?

Hard to get an answer from the anti-everything lot(ironic).

I can only comment on what I have read, which suggests that Hawkings like many scientists are still reluctant to dismiss the idea of a god altogether,. What has changed for Hawking is that until last October Hawking was still the Lucasian Professor of Mathmatics at Cambridge, which is a position that comes with a great deal of power and responsibility. Getting embroiled in the pro's and con's of religion while holding that office would be extremely inappropriate.

From what Hawking has said recently, if he does believe in a god, it is likely to be more of an academic idea of god - something much more esoteric and I suppose he may care to share that view in the future.

As for prayer being a placebo effect, does it really matter? Surely the outcome is more important than the means?

 

[Wij]

What evidence would you like? What need of clinical evidence has there been?

Intercessory prayer and cardiovascular disease pro... [Mayo Clin Proc. 2001] - PubMed result

Trials have been done. The evidence is in.

 

[Krazeh]

So you're saying self confidence, support from family, good health(which effects mind) and so forth are also placebos?

In fact; anything that affects your emotions, wills to live, strength, hope, and so on so on are placebos?

No, i'm saying that anything that causes a change to your condition simply because you hold a belief that it will, in this case prayer, is a placebo. The prayer itself does nothing, it's the belief you have in the prayer/act of praying that causes any of the later benefits attributed to the prayer.

 

[Scouse]

Are you claiming, yes or no, that prayer can't give hope, strength, willpower and so on?

I've been perfectly clear on this IMHO. Prayer can give hope/whatever. As much as any placebo can. But it's not the prayer per se that's doing it.

Intercessory prayer and cardiovascular disease pro... [Mayo Clin Proc. 2001] - PubMed result

Trials have been done. The evidence is in.

According to Toht, that doesn't count. You can't pray for actual things. And if the things you pray for don't happen then it doesn't count.

Only if you pray for non-"things", and if the prayer actually coincides with the prayed-for outcome, does prayer count. Otherwise it's YOUR fault for doing it wrong. Or something

 

[Wij]

According to Toht, that doesn't count. You can't pray for actual things. And if the things you pray for don't happen then it doesn't count.

Only if you pray for non-"things", and if the prayer actually coincides with the prayed-for outcome, does prayer count. Otherwise it's YOUR fault for doing it wrong. Or something

Well that's just a roundabout way of saying prayer does nothing which is in complete agreement with the clinical evidence.

</thread>

 

[old.Tohtori]

No, i'm saying that anything that causes a change to your condition simply because you hold a belief that it will, in this case prayer, is a placebo. The prayer itself does nothing, it's the belief you have in the prayer/act of praying that causes any of the later benefits attributed to the prayer.

And what makes your hope/strength/etc rise due to other external, non-medical, sources?

Because if prayer/belief causes the same bonus effects as any non-medicinal source(family/friends/etc), then it is the same if you strip away the god/religion/anti/blah.

Therefor, you either think that ALL outside sources of hope(etc) are placebos, or you're contradicting yourself.

Ford, thanks for that.

According to Toht, that doesn't count. You can't pray for actual things. And if the things you pray for don't happen then it doesn't count.

Only if you pray for non-"things", and if the prayer actually coincides with the prayed-for outcome, does prayer count. Otherwise it's YOUR fault for doing it wrong. Or something

That's according to you, not me.

I never claimed any of that. I'd ask you to prove it, but you're not into that sort of thing.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Actually a fairly easy way to spot anyone who doesn't read;

Hand up if you think i'm claiming, in the theory posted, that there's some magical power to praying?

I'd expect about 9 out of 10 popping a hand up because they think this is a theory about a sky fairy existing or some such.

 

[Scouse]

And what makes your hope/strength/etc rise due to other external, non-medical, sources?

Prayer isn't an external source of anything.


Prayer is a purely internal experience. Unlike family and friends - and all the other real, physical things (medical or not) that you care to think of.

 

[Ch3tan]

No Toht, you are as usual changing what you say under duress. What you orginially said fits with the placebo effect. There really is no need to expand further.