F
Falcon
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- #61
Visible classes fault for forcing them to resort to stealth zergs to compete with the gank groups tbh
I
Indiana Jones
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- #62
well i think every class thinks it should get some love
from my point of view archers (rangers, scouts and hunters) are no gimps at all, at least when it comes down to ranged combat
I've been taken down by rangers/hunters who shot me for like 500-600 dmg with first shot (crit shot i guess) followed by rapid fire with about 250 dmg each. No point in running up to the archer as i'm long dead when i should get there.
for example this
http://users.pandora.be/Shenron/Daoc/crit.jpg
928 dmg on first shot, 408 dmg on second.... i would like to hear him say "i'm such a gimp". Legohelt is RR3 btw, so I doubt he is highly specced in crit dmg RA.
AND archers can do this dmg from a distance, from any angle. Assassins have to walk to their target and be right in front of it to PA. If target moves or turns.. pa fails and we're toast.
Pls take a look at my PA gallery of the past few weeks: http://users.pandora.be/Shenron/Daoc/PA/Pa.htm
I don't seem to get even close to the 928 dmg of that hunter, and i'm a RR6 assassin.
So pls don't tell me that archers are gimps and assassins are overpowered. In melee you are weak, but from a distance you are just as lethal as assassins. So stealth nerfs should apply to both
from my point of view archers (rangers, scouts and hunters) are no gimps at all, at least when it comes down to ranged combat
I've been taken down by rangers/hunters who shot me for like 500-600 dmg with first shot (crit shot i guess) followed by rapid fire with about 250 dmg each. No point in running up to the archer as i'm long dead when i should get there.
for example this
http://users.pandora.be/Shenron/Daoc/crit.jpg
928 dmg on first shot, 408 dmg on second.... i would like to hear him say "i'm such a gimp". Legohelt is RR3 btw, so I doubt he is highly specced in crit dmg RA.
AND archers can do this dmg from a distance, from any angle. Assassins have to walk to their target and be right in front of it to PA. If target moves or turns.. pa fails and we're toast.
Pls take a look at my PA gallery of the past few weeks: http://users.pandora.be/Shenron/Daoc/PA/Pa.htm
I don't seem to get even close to the 928 dmg of that hunter, and i'm a RR6 assassin.
So pls don't tell me that archers are gimps and assassins are overpowered. In melee you are weak, but from a distance you are just as lethal as assassins. So stealth nerfs should apply to both
S
Sichama
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- #63
I sense there is some misconception here, at first it looked like a "I hate all stealthers...for no serious reason" thread, so from a stealthers point of view ill try clear some things up.
1st Stealthers earn a hell of alot more RP's when they solo and can fight 1vs1 fights even if they lose as many fights as they win.
2nd Stealthers earn no RP's when they solo and can't find 1vs1 fights.
3rd Stealthers don't have the luxury of beeing able to roam the place looking for a fight, camping is more of a way to invite others to come to you rather than ambush unsaspected victims.
4th Stealthers in general can't find a place in a group because except for the minstrel (who i strongly believe shouldn't be able to stealth for many reasons) they have nothing or very minimal things to offer.
Primarily for the above reasons stealthers don't like to group and by group i don't mean duo's or trio's i mean stealthzergs but when x number of fg's decide to roam a place they quickly run out of options.
Everytime i have seen a stealthzerg form is because something must be done about x fg's that jump stealthers because of chance or purpose, i have personaly witnesed a fg that went out of sight just a bit off from the MG and quickly ran and steamroll opponents that one of their own stealthers revealed at the MG, and they did this repeatedly, and yes a stealthzerg formed to take them down.
Lets not kid ourselves here, when one realm decides to dominate a place there are only three options for the stealthers, either stop RvR and do something else in game or out (not fun because they wanted to RvR at that time), continue trying to RvR but get constantly killed again and again and in the end be called a moron aswell because they don't know when to stop (not fun), or find as many stealthers as you can zerg the place for a while untill it gets quiet and resume normal play (not fun but with the potential). And believe me you need at least 2fg's of stealthers to take down 1 normal fg and if it is a fg of good RvR guilds sometimes even that is not enough.
So considering all the above isn't it normal for stealthers to camp a place waiting for a fight to come to them? Obviously it is, so why in hell do fg's choose MG's to start their battle fully knowing that the probablity of stealthers around is very high and then moan if they lose because of add's or moan if they win because of leechers.
You think it's easy beeing a stealther? well i tell you it's not as easy as you think, you think it dificult to play "normaly" because of stealthers? well, there are alot of players non stealthers of every class out there that solo and do very fine not to mention fg's that even when they get hostile add's win in the end killing everyone, just because you can't do it that does not mean stealthers are overpowered it just means you are either stupid or unskilled.
Consider this as true when you think about stealthers, they very very very much prefer to fight 1vs1, 2vs2, or max 3vs3 battles and except for the very new ones that tend to group because they have a tremendusly dificult time out there and they have to leech or add at the start of their carrier (this also include's Inf's as they have almost full potential from the start, but as players they need a bit more practise), every other time a stealthzerg is formed it is because they don't have another option.
Stealth zergs don't form for RP's they form because of nessesity and because of the above reasons they also die very quickly when they are not needed anymore.
And on a personal note, i trully dont like the "normal" RvR, running around in circles trying to find something to kill, its boring, it's stupid, and it gives me a headache, this is a personal view though and before you ask yes i know how it is, i also have a Bard.
Keep takes/defense yes they are fun but as Hibernians we don't really get a chance for them, the only other viable option is stealthwars. I know alot of stealthers that agree with me so stop ruining our game by running in FG's please, go play something else.
1st Stealthers earn a hell of alot more RP's when they solo and can fight 1vs1 fights even if they lose as many fights as they win.
2nd Stealthers earn no RP's when they solo and can't find 1vs1 fights.
3rd Stealthers don't have the luxury of beeing able to roam the place looking for a fight, camping is more of a way to invite others to come to you rather than ambush unsaspected victims.
4th Stealthers in general can't find a place in a group because except for the minstrel (who i strongly believe shouldn't be able to stealth for many reasons) they have nothing or very minimal things to offer.
Primarily for the above reasons stealthers don't like to group and by group i don't mean duo's or trio's i mean stealthzergs but when x number of fg's decide to roam a place they quickly run out of options.
Everytime i have seen a stealthzerg form is because something must be done about x fg's that jump stealthers because of chance or purpose, i have personaly witnesed a fg that went out of sight just a bit off from the MG and quickly ran and steamroll opponents that one of their own stealthers revealed at the MG, and they did this repeatedly, and yes a stealthzerg formed to take them down.
Lets not kid ourselves here, when one realm decides to dominate a place there are only three options for the stealthers, either stop RvR and do something else in game or out (not fun because they wanted to RvR at that time), continue trying to RvR but get constantly killed again and again and in the end be called a moron aswell because they don't know when to stop (not fun), or find as many stealthers as you can zerg the place for a while untill it gets quiet and resume normal play (not fun but with the potential). And believe me you need at least 2fg's of stealthers to take down 1 normal fg and if it is a fg of good RvR guilds sometimes even that is not enough.
So considering all the above isn't it normal for stealthers to camp a place waiting for a fight to come to them? Obviously it is, so why in hell do fg's choose MG's to start their battle fully knowing that the probablity of stealthers around is very high and then moan if they lose because of add's or moan if they win because of leechers.
You think it's easy beeing a stealther? well i tell you it's not as easy as you think, you think it dificult to play "normaly" because of stealthers? well, there are alot of players non stealthers of every class out there that solo and do very fine not to mention fg's that even when they get hostile add's win in the end killing everyone, just because you can't do it that does not mean stealthers are overpowered it just means you are either stupid or unskilled.
Consider this as true when you think about stealthers, they very very very much prefer to fight 1vs1, 2vs2, or max 3vs3 battles and except for the very new ones that tend to group because they have a tremendusly dificult time out there and they have to leech or add at the start of their carrier (this also include's Inf's as they have almost full potential from the start, but as players they need a bit more practise), every other time a stealthzerg is formed it is because they don't have another option.
Stealth zergs don't form for RP's they form because of nessesity and because of the above reasons they also die very quickly when they are not needed anymore.
And on a personal note, i trully dont like the "normal" RvR, running around in circles trying to find something to kill, its boring, it's stupid, and it gives me a headache, this is a personal view though and before you ask yes i know how it is, i also have a Bard.
Keep takes/defense yes they are fun but as Hibernians we don't really get a chance for them, the only other viable option is stealthwars. I know alot of stealthers that agree with me so stop ruining our game by running in FG's please, go play something else.
S
Shike
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- #64
yep here I agree though some quite radical changes would actually be needed in DAoC to make that happen.
A fat nerf to many RAs would solve alot since thats a primary reason to choose a pure tank over an archer for instance today. Damagedealing is not archers problem, they suffer from lack of determination just as Reavers do and alot of other classes and they suffer from PBT (tho if assissting this is not much of a problem and guard is a pain aswell but it is so for all tanks aswell so thats no different. Archers are very weak vs tanks with shields in general but there are other things to kill out there as a grouped archer. If RAs wasnt as bad as they are today archers would have it alot easier to find a group I think, an idea though would be that all realms have 2 types of archers, one scouting type with stealth enabled and a battlearcher but with _alittle_ more meleecapability and no stealth at all, that way those that want to play the scouts role can do it, and the ones that wanna play archer to fight active in groups sacrifice their stealth to do so since they are a bit weak atm when compared to light tanks for instance.
Mincers already have their role as speedprovider and interrupter/assister so they are the most groupable stealther of all, and also a very powerful stealther aswell and thats just silly in my book.
Assassins however.. I have a small question here, did people really roll assassins at start to group with or for soloing? My guess is, they wanted to have a char that could solo and rolled a stealther of some kind, most rolled assassins since they are the most powerful soloer but also very weak in a normal group and I doubt this can be changed. Why assassins are rolled today is to pwn with them though and not much else it seems.
C
Cybwyn
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- #65
That'll be a buffed to the tits hunter by the way. No way he could do that sort of damage unbuffed against a L50. Most I've ever critted a L50 leather wearer for while unbuffed is 835 damage (no resists or bonuses) and that's with 50 longbow and using a 5.5spd bow; hunters use faster bows, are unlikely to spec 50 bow and generally do less bow damage than scouts, so go figure.
Oh, and I'm not one of these archers asking for more love or complaining that I'm a gimp; I'm happy with the way things are for archers at the moment after the see hidden nerf and some new toys in bow spec.
F
Falcon
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- #66
You're comparing buffed archers on an unstealthed, unbuffed target.
Even then take a look at what you've said:
That's not even a touch on the damage a mage does against 26% resists, let alone the speed at which mages can do it in comparison. Also, assassins are weak to arrows unstealthed and not facing a target (if you shoot at a buffed assassin front on they'll evade nearly all your shots, hell even my evade 3 ranger does).
It's totally unfair to compare a fully buffed archer against an unbuffed, unstealthed/true sighted infil. If you do the same test against a fully buffed mage or tank the story is very, very different. The high damage crit shot is guaranteed to be BT'd, the next shot may hit for the damage you quoted if the archer doesn't miss. The mage will then quickcast, and do more damage back to the archer at double the cast speed and slaughter him without him having anything like quickshot to do the same back. The archer could use the range advantage but the mage could easily then just run out of range.
Note for those who don't bother to research before whining: An archer can fire at the same speed as a mage, but unlike the mage they suffer a 50% damage penalty, meaning they're doing 1/4th the damage of the mage, and 1/2 their normal damage.
Note number 2: Yes you'll probably give me the gimped damage whine, but wait, before you do remember the archer wont be grouped to get resist buffs, so you wont in fact do gimp damage like you'd like to beleive.
Again, take the same scenario against a tank, if the tanks got a sheild you just aren't gonna touch him, if you do it'll be gimp damage vs. scale, then he'll just stroll upto you and anally rape you in melee.
Some of your PAs are low, but you've forgotten that you've dropped a good few hundred hps off them with the str/const buff or something, so even on the low ones you're actually hurting them more. For example the 200 damage PAs may actually be ripping a good 400 damage off them, not to mention the weapskill decrease or the extra couple of hundred damage from the DoT, or the fact that if it's an archer or mage you can snare them for a guaranteed kill instead of DoT seeing as they can't do jack (unless melee specced like my ranger) in melee.
Very finally, do you have capped resists Indiana? The reason I asked is that 900dmg shot from a hunter is a cap hit. Before I left Prydwen, GOA had kindly introduced a euro only bug where under some circumstances archers were able to bypass resists and even crit shot moving targets (not going into the circumstances or it will be abused and archers really will get falsely whined at). I reported it to Kemor and he said he'd pass it on, but if that was recent it seems they still haven't fixed it. If you've got capped resists then you can take a good 200 damage off that when GOA fix things, i.e. the way it should be, and is on the US servers.
Even then take a look at what you've said:
That's not even a touch on the damage a mage does against 26% resists, let alone the speed at which mages can do it in comparison. Also, assassins are weak to arrows unstealthed and not facing a target (if you shoot at a buffed assassin front on they'll evade nearly all your shots, hell even my evade 3 ranger does).
It's totally unfair to compare a fully buffed archer against an unbuffed, unstealthed/true sighted infil. If you do the same test against a fully buffed mage or tank the story is very, very different. The high damage crit shot is guaranteed to be BT'd, the next shot may hit for the damage you quoted if the archer doesn't miss. The mage will then quickcast, and do more damage back to the archer at double the cast speed and slaughter him without him having anything like quickshot to do the same back. The archer could use the range advantage but the mage could easily then just run out of range.
Note for those who don't bother to research before whining: An archer can fire at the same speed as a mage, but unlike the mage they suffer a 50% damage penalty, meaning they're doing 1/4th the damage of the mage, and 1/2 their normal damage.
Note number 2: Yes you'll probably give me the gimped damage whine, but wait, before you do remember the archer wont be grouped to get resist buffs, so you wont in fact do gimp damage like you'd like to beleive.
Again, take the same scenario against a tank, if the tanks got a sheild you just aren't gonna touch him, if you do it'll be gimp damage vs. scale, then he'll just stroll upto you and anally rape you in melee.
Some of your PAs are low, but you've forgotten that you've dropped a good few hundred hps off them with the str/const buff or something, so even on the low ones you're actually hurting them more. For example the 200 damage PAs may actually be ripping a good 400 damage off them, not to mention the weapskill decrease or the extra couple of hundred damage from the DoT, or the fact that if it's an archer or mage you can snare them for a guaranteed kill instead of DoT seeing as they can't do jack (unless melee specced like my ranger) in melee.
Very finally, do you have capped resists Indiana? The reason I asked is that 900dmg shot from a hunter is a cap hit. Before I left Prydwen, GOA had kindly introduced a euro only bug where under some circumstances archers were able to bypass resists and even crit shot moving targets (not going into the circumstances or it will be abused and archers really will get falsely whined at). I reported it to Kemor and he said he'd pass it on, but if that was recent it seems they still haven't fixed it. If you've got capped resists then you can take a good 200 damage off that when GOA fix things, i.e. the way it should be, and is on the US servers.
I
Indiana Jones
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- #67
i got 20% crush resist, 25% slash and 26% thrust
and about the BT, don't archers have penetrating shot or something like that?
and about the BT, don't archers have penetrating shot or something like that?
F
Falcon
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- #68
Pass it onto GOA not that they'll do anything - I reported it originally around 4months ago along with the fact Animist DDs were missing a very consistent 166dmg off their cap on every fully debuffed target we tested on with multiple animists, any idea if they've fixed that one yet either :/ ?
F
Falcon
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- #69
Penetrating arrow doesn't work against personal BT, only works on BT casted from someone else.
Take a Warden, with PBT running, he'll be fully immune to penetrating arrow, but his group mates wont be due to the fact it isn't their own BT. A mage in his group, with self-BT up, will be fully immune to the first arrow that hits him, all others will suffer a reduction as they pass through the warden's BT depending on the archers bow spec - you need 50 bow spec to fully bypass non-personal BT. This means mages still have BT to make them invulnerable to crit shots.
Take a Warden, with PBT running, he'll be fully immune to penetrating arrow, but his group mates wont be due to the fact it isn't their own BT. A mage in his group, with self-BT up, will be fully immune to the first arrow that hits him, all others will suffer a reduction as they pass through the warden's BT depending on the archers bow spec - you need 50 bow spec to fully bypass non-personal BT. This means mages still have BT to make them invulnerable to crit shots.
I
Indiana Jones
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- #70
well, agreed thats silly
imo crit shot should penetrate bt, just like Pa
but no need to go over the whole discussion again
in general all stealthers should agree that nerfing stealth does more bad than good
imo crit shot should penetrate bt, just like Pa
but no need to go over the whole discussion again
in general all stealthers should agree that nerfing stealth does more bad than good
J
Jenna.
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- #71
lets gimp casters more please!
I
Indiana Jones
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- #72
hehehe, well its hard to balance classes
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Sharma
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- #73
For once i agree with Klav.
I dont think Infils nor NSs have ever had a direct nerf.
So please.
F
Falcon
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- #74
IP removal effected all assassins. Also 50% evade cap was a massive nerf to NS seeing as their only advantage over the other assassins was their dex/qui which helped them evade a little more. SBs were on par with Infils before, now they're on par with an NS with AP down. I agree NS need to lose AP, but also think Infils need to be brought down to NS/SB level, whilst at the same time giving NS a higher const race, like celt without letting the whineshades have a say in it
M
Myddrin
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- #75
Nice to see all stealthers stero-typed and tarred with the same brush as per usual, keep up the good work and lets work together to ruin the stealth class as a whole.
T
Talen
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- #76
Still again you are the same guy which spammed me on irc with random proclamations of your extreme skill as a stealther and that you "pwned niar eznp". soooo ~~
T
Talen
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- #77
Anyway now for a serious reply:
ToA introduces many new ways to fight as and against stealthers, (PN, stealth lore, you name it). In the end I deem it worthwhile changes really though. If a caster would pop a PN at a good place then he really should be able to defend himself against a stealther for once.
(hell I mean even my level 41 SB on camlann slays level 50 casters without having to strain himself much)
SL is in essence of course still a timesink. Everyone will be forced to get it or face a disadvantage all the time... Of course the powerplayers will have a few weeks advantage compared to the casual players but in the end stealthers will adapt to it.
ToA introduces many new ways to fight as and against stealthers, (PN, stealth lore, you name it). In the end I deem it worthwhile changes really though. If a caster would pop a PN at a good place then he really should be able to defend himself against a stealther for once.
(hell I mean even my level 41 SB on camlann slays level 50 casters without having to strain himself much)
SL is in essence of course still a timesink. Everyone will be forced to get it or face a disadvantage all the time... Of course the powerplayers will have a few weeks advantage compared to the casual players but in the end stealthers will adapt to it.
B
BimboBane
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- #78
LOL, niar left the game looong before i got my hunter up in decent level, but yeah i pwnd niar quite a few times in Yggdra with my other toon in the good old days. And I have never said im a skilled stealther, im only using my hunter as scout and annoyance to casters and those other stealthers and by only relying on selfbuffs and camoflage makes life abit more challeging.
S
sweetleaf.
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- #79
Great.
It will stop camping spot which will be good for the game. I mean if 5 stealthers camp milegate and someone uses node and they all get whipped, GOOD. Dont camp in same spot.
It will mean that some thought will have to go into tactics for stealthers.
Every non stealther class will cheer when toa come out.
It will stop camping spot which will be good for the game. I mean if 5 stealthers camp milegate and someone uses node and they all get whipped, GOOD. Dont camp in same spot.
It will mean that some thought will have to go into tactics for stealthers.
Every non stealther class will cheer when toa come out.
R
rookiescot
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- #80
Seems to me that every class has its nemisis EXCEPT stealthers. Mythic introduce a "partial" defence for casters (and lets face it .....it aint gonna be that effective) and the stealthers are all up in arms over it? Jesus guys......at the very least it makes the game more interesting. Wait till Mythic watches the stealthed GANK groups running around.....then you really gonna get slapped.
C
Cybwyn
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- #81
Wrong. You're lumping all stealth classes into one big generalisation there.
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ironhand
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- #82
With a 5 min recast timer it wont mater where u hide, will have to be remote for 1 of the 2 enemy realms many casters not to cast a PN in your direction.
C
Cinwin
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- #83
Thats if anyone is still playing by then ...
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Talen
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- #84
infil vs warriors.. do I need to say more? block,block,parry osv osv