stanley tookie willaims

[Jjuraa]

You don't put yourself in both sides, Jjuraa, you put yourself solely in the side of the victim, you allow hate and revenge to consume your person, it sounds like a hollow, pointless existance to me. Frankly, I wonder if you have a fucking clue what you are talking about.

And I pity you for your bloodlust, I hope you're just using an "on-line character" here, if not, well, I'll just pity you some more.

I have lost friends, family, people I knew only by name but still managed to touch me in some way. I lost them to cancer, murder, accidents, suicide. I've seen my best friend almost destroying herself trying to come to terms with her being sexually violated by a family member, only to find herself raped again. I learned from it how fickle fate can be, I mourn the passing of those I lost, I feel anger to those things and people that took them away, but I don't hate them, hate is such a pointless, futile exercise in the end. In the end, they are still 6 feet under, decomposing, what I do, or believe, will not change that.

You chose the values of death and revenge, people like you make me glad I chose life. One day, I hope for your sake, you will realise that all that anger you carry will not bring your hypothetical loved ones back. You are only sullying their hypothetical memory with your calls for revenge.

You want, as a hypothetical dad, see the murderer of your hypothetical daughter executed? Bugger that, how about comforting your hypothetical wife? How about keeping your hypothetical other kids on track? I'm sure they'd love their hypothetical daddy brooding over the death of their hypothetical sister all day.

The weak are consumed by hate, the strong find a way to carry on with their lives.

Yes, you hit a snare, I'm not going to allow myself to be called emotionless by tossers like yourself who think they are da shiz by insulting those who hold different values.

For someone doing their best to make a structured point, you failed horribly at what i like to call the first hurdle:- Not being a complete hypocrite.

From just one forum post from me you've had to resort to name calling and irrelevant insults to try and "get at me". Now this says to me you can't even keep your cool on an online forum, so what chance do you have in real life after your daughter has been chain raped?

I thought so.

I dont think I'm "da shiz" and i am looking at things from both sides, it's hard for me to look through the eyes of a senseless killer because i don't have that inside me, but i try. And i dont see why i should deserve to live after doing something like that.

you allow hate and revenge to consume your person ... hate is such a pointless, futile exercise in the end

This is not starwars, you are not the emporer, i don't know how many times you have seen that movie or why you have drummed into your head the illogical conclusion that hate is pointless. Why do you think hate is here in the first place? For the same reason as anger, fear, happiness.

They are useful emotions, use them.

 

[Calaen]

Hindely is dead tbh.

as has already been said by a few people,

Life should mean life and they should be made to work to pay for their keep.

 

[Jjuraa]

I think you're sick for throwing that crap at people, who don't agree that death penalty is the greatest invention since the wheel.

Sick for saying a man guilty for multiple murders should die..? I'm not quite sure what kudos youre expecting for over-acting that badly, an oscar perhaps?

Very well i bow down to your ability to dramatise someones opinion that far out of proportion. How sick am i being really? its not like i said that it think the entire family of the guilty man should die? or hell, the guilty man was christian! kill all the christians!

No? i simply said that a person guilty deserves to reap what he sows.

"Turning the other cheek means you just get hit twice"...

he equally saved countless lives with his anti-gang propaganda
newsflash, when hes dead he is not suffering
(dependant on your beliefs ofc)

but its so easy to be nice when its your only shot? Hell if i was a psycho killer i could act up for a few years, make fluffy toys for kids, kiss babies. Get released and kill a bunch more people. Survival instinct is more powerful than you give it credit for. What are you going to say "Oh noone is capable of being evil after writing so many nice stories" ? He murdered 4 fucking people? how do you know he'd really changed?

 

[old.Tohtori]

What are you going to say "Oh noone is capable of being evil after writing so many nice stories" ? He murdered 4 fucking people? how do you know he'd really changed?

Also have to remember, as i've said before, that the past doesn't give the right to pass judgement of the present.

 

[Jjuraa]

Also have to remember, as i've said before, that the past doesn't give the right to pass judgement of the present.

why does it not? define "the past"? how many days/weeks/months/years does it take?

Say you stole my car 5 minutes ago. the second the event went from happening to happened:- it became the past. say you then got out of my car and helped a old woman across the street. should you be let off for stealing my car?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Within reason.

That's the odd point in this. If i stole your car, you heard i stole it to take my sick granny to the hospital 'cause she was having a heart attack, would you in given time it takes for you to "forgive", lend me your car again?

It's all about the perspective of a single person i guess. I myself, forget rather fast and give second change to people.

Trust is gained and lost, but never should trust be taken away absolutely.

 

[Jjuraa]

Within reason.

That's the odd point in this. If i stole your car, you heard i stole it to take my sick granny to the hospital 'cause she was having a heart attack, would you in given time it takes for you to "forgive", lend me your car again?

It's all about the perspective of a single person i guess. I myself, forget rather fast and give second change to people.

Trust is gained and lost, but never should trust be taken away absolutely.

If you took my care for the sole reason of getting your granny to hospital, i would be able to see your reasoning. That doesnt mean i wouldnt be annoyed/lose trust in you. And i feel you'd still need to serve whatever punishment is coming to you, no "special cases" with the law, once we break down it all breaks down.

This cant really be applied to stanley tookie willaims though, its not as if he killed those people just so he could go to prison and write books.

 

[Calaen]

I guess thats a problem we have in this world, too many people are not capable of forgivness. So really we should just kill everyone that commits a crime no matter how harsh, because in most people eyes they never going to change.

I for one am very quick to forget, trust can be regained but it takes time.

I am not one for over reaction which a few people posting here seem to do as a full time job.

 

[Chronictank]

but its so easy to be nice when its your only shot? Hell if i was a psycho killer i could act up for a few years, make fluffy toys for kids, kiss babies. Get released and kill a bunch more people. Survival instinct is more powerful than you give it credit for. What are you going to say "Oh noone is capable of being evil after writing so many nice stories" ? He murdered 4 fucking people? how do you know he'd really changed?

Noone said he should be free'd, why do you find it so difficult to follow that?
The topic is should he be executed

As i said before, i dont think there should be a death penalty, we are not god therefore we dont choose who lives or dies.

 

[Shatari]

Originally Posted by Chronictank
As i said before, i dont think there should be a death penalty, we are not god therefore we dont choose who lives or dies.

The killer obivous thought he was God, so why shouldn't we act like a "God"?
Also when you say "God", whos God do you think of? The Christian one?

 

[Chronictank]

The killer obivous thought he was God, so why shouldn't we act like a "God"?
Also when you say "God", whos God do you think of? The Christian one?

but doesnt make him god does it? he had no right to take it just as you have no right to take his, if the killer jumps off a cliff would you go off after him? after all he did it too

you didnt give him his life therefore it is not yours to take away. Arguably his life belongs to his mother since she brought him into this world
i believe god (if it matters so much but i dont see how, when i refered to go i refered to the Christian,Muslim,Jewish god) made us all that is what my belief is regardless whether you agree or not

 

[[SS]Gamblor]

The killer obivous thought he was God, so why shouldn't we act like a "God"?
Also when you say "God", whos God do you think of? The Christian one?

Sorry not picking on Shatari , but the statement ( if that makes sense )


If we do something beacuse someone else did it , what does that make us ... Children .


Sorry , but that is how i feel .

He was killed ( Gas'd wasn't it ? ) and it was all set and planned years in advance. and he was given notice.
Where as his victims did , they just died.

I still don't like the death sentence at all.

I prefer lock them up till they die.

 

[Shatari]

but doesnt make him god does it? he had no right to take it just as you have no right to take his, if the killer jumps off a cliff would you go off after him? after all he did it too

and its pretty irrelevant which god i am refering to, you didnt give him his life therefore it is not yours to take away. Arguably his life belongs to his mother since she brought him into this world
i believe god (if it matters so much but i dont see how, when i refered to go i refered to the Christian,Muslim,Jewish god) made us all that is what my belief is regardless whether you agree or not

It is not at all irrelevant what God you refer to. You brought it up on topic, so I ask you what God you refer to. Let's say I was religous, then it would really depend on what religion I got, whetever it would be right for me to believe in taking anothers life. That's my few coins to your previous quote.
Thanks for making it more clear for me what religion you were refering to.

Also, what does jumping off a cliff has to do with killing? There's pretty much difference. One of the major differences is that he does it to himself and therefore does not harm anybody, while he "harm" another person by killing him/her, wouldn't you say?

 

[Shatari]

Sorry not picking on Shatari , but the statement ( if that makes sense )


If we do something beacuse someone else did it , what does that make us ... Children .


Sorry , but that is how i feel .

He was killed ( Gas'd wasn't it ? ) and it was all set and planned years in advance. and he was given notice.
Where as his victims did , they just died.

I still don't like the death sentence at all.

I prefer lock them up till they die.

So you say that it makes us "children" to attack back if we get attacked, or did you mean it makes us children to attack him/her when he has finished attacking us, and that we just should let it pass as nothing had happened?

Also, why wouldn't I want to do the same to a murderer that has just taken someones life I dearly loved? Just trying to put myself in anothers shoes.

Sorry, I can't see it from your view either.

 

[[SS]Gamblor]

So you say that it makes us "children" to attack back if we get attacked, or did you mean it makes us children to attack him/her when he has finished attacking us, and that we just should let it pass as nothing had happened?

no doing it soley for the prupose becuase he did it first .
Rise above it. otherwise your just as bad as him

Also, why wouldn't I want to do the same to a murderer that has just taken someones life I dearly loved? Just trying to put myself in anothers shoes.

Sorry, I can't see it from your view either.

ok , but if i was the other person , or the person murdered i wouldn't want a friend/lover/family taking his life in revenge

 

[Tasslehoff]

Sick for saying a man guilty for multiple murders should die..? I'm not quite sure what kudos youre expecting for over-acting that badly, an oscar perhaps?

Very well i bow down to your ability to dramatise someones opinion that far out of proportion. How sick am i being really? its not like i said that it think the entire family of the guilty man should die? or hell, the guilty man was christian! kill all the christians!

No? i simply said that a person guilty deserves to reap what he sows.

"Turning the other cheek means you just get hit twice"...

I meant, that you were sick for telling people they were without emotions because they didn't agree with death penalty. Oscar? What did I dramatise? I really don't see/get your point(s) if there's any.

You so didn't understand my post

 

[Shatari]

no doing it soley for the prupose becuase he did it first .
Rise above it. otherwise your just as bad as him

So you're basicly saying I'm as bad as him, because I do what people call "reveange" and doesn't let him go unscratched?

If we see it from another perspective, and just saw another harming another person badly without reason, then I would at least hope the judges would give him an equal treatment, not necessary in form of beating, but in form of some looong years in a very little prison.
However in the case of murder I would really see him getting the highest punishment, which in this case are death penalty.

 

[[SS]Gamblor]

So you're basicly saying I'm as bad as him, because I do what people call "reveange" and doesn't let him go unscratched?

If we see it from another perspective, and just saw another harming another person badly without reason, then I would at least hope the judges would give him an equal treatment, not necessary in form of beating, but in form of some looong years in a very little prison.
However in the case of murder I would really see him getting the highest punishment, which in this case are death penalty.

there is a big difference in letting the system do it's thing , and doing the deed yourself.

That's why The system is supposed to be impartial ( it isn't always , but hey nothing is perfect).

 

[Chap]

I voted yes, simply because it's the foundation of a modern community founded on the rule of law that when the sentence is passed it should be caried out. You cannot have one set of rules for people writing good books and one set of rules for those who dont.
Then we can debate wether or not capital punishment is one we should use in a modern society. In my oppinion both jail sentence and execution is a mideval way of thinking and "punishing" criminals. Countless studies shows that jail sentences pushes criminals even further away from rehabiliation and thus not solving the problem but worsen it. Same for capital punishment, potential murderes do not consider their future before they commit the crime. Therefore saying that capital punishment is intimidating people from killing is wrong, and The States clearly shows that this theory doesnt work in reality.
So capital punishment doesnt help reduce the number of murders commited in a society (I would say it increases as the punishment in it self is murder), so why use it? Most people argue that its the sence of justice of the "victimes" (the relatives of the murdered) thats offended if the killer isnt sentenced to death. But allowing emotions to govern your justice system is in my oppinion flawed as laws are based on rationel thinking and not the emotion of the day.

/Chap

 

[Shatari]

I voted yes, simply because it's the foundation of a modern community founded on the rule of law that when the sentence is passed it should be caried out. You cannot have one set of rules for people writing good books and one set of rules for those who dont.
Then we can debate wether or not capital punishment is one we should use in a modern society. In my oppinion both jail sentence and execution is a mideval way of thinking and "punishing" criminals. Countless studies shows that jail sentences pushes criminals even further away from rehabiliation and thus not solving the problem but worsen it. Same for capital punishment, potential murderes do not consider their future before they commit the crime. Therefore saying that capital punishment is intimidating people from killing is wrong, and The States clearly shows that this theory doesnt work in reality.
So capital punishment doesnt help reduce the number of murders commited in a society (I would say it increases as the punishment in it self is murder), so why use it? Most people argue that its the sence of justice of the "victimes" (the relatives of the murdered) thats offended if the killer isnt sentenced to death. But allowing emotions to govern your justice system is in my oppinion flawed as laws are based on rationel thinking and not the emotion of the day.

/Chap

Good written.

First of I would say I'm not against rehabilitation as long as it is kept for those commiting smaller crimes.
I see killing as the ultimate evil, and thus there's no return for the murderer, therefore I am against rehabilitation when it comes to this.

Let's take a rapist and childabuser. Even though it also pure evil, then the abused/raped does at least survive and can get professional help and perhabs get a normal life again, while the rapist and childabuser can get help too (which he/she REALLY needs).

When it comes to murderer you can't help the victim (as you can't wake the death), but only the murderer.
The murderer has done something that can't be done good again, nor do I see a reason to keep him in the prison like an animal and just "use" him for work we wouldn't do ourselves, but rather end his/her pain by an execution as I see this as more justifying than anything else.

 

[Job]

As an Aethist I don't believe in 'redemption', not too sold on 'forgivness', 'forgiving' people is just simply having the memories of the event fade away until the anger dissapears, it's a simple chemical brain process.
My angle is much less driven by these emotions,
you-kill..you-die

The problem is a human being is programmed to feel empathy, trouble is the poor bastard who was killed doesn't register anymore on a lot of peoples radar.
So they, in my opinion, misguide it towards the assaliant.

These murderers own me nothing, they owe society nothing, they owe everything to the victim and their loved ones, by supporting the death penalty I am empowering them, I am giving that poor kid who was shot in the back the chance to fight back, now it's Tookie on the floor and the kid has the gun.

GOOD NEWS IS HE'S DEAD

 

[Jjuraa]

You so didn't understand my post

understandable really, youre terrible at writing them. and you "overdramatise" becuase theres nothing ive said anywhere in this post that is "sick" i havnt told anyone what they are, i havnt told anyone that they have to feel what i feel? i just said i pity them.

hardly sick now is it?


Children overdramatise things when they are learning to argue, as a way of adding backing to an argument they think is weak. As i assume youre not a child, id suggest you rethink your strategy...

 

[Tasslehoff]

try doing that, and if you still wouldnt want the murderer to die.. well then i pity you for being so weak, for having little to no emotion inside you. for never loving or being loved 0_o

i havnt told anyone what they are,

So you didn't tell people that they were emotionless (aka having no emotions), and being unloved and unloving, if they didn't agree?

Well, I'm done discussing this, as you have no clue whatsoever about what you've said or any clue at all. (in my opinion, you're free to have your own )

<adds some stuff about Jjuraa being bad with arguments and being a child>

 

[Andrilyn]

I am against death penalty so voted "no".
Find it such a hypocrit thing to do like "It is illegal to kill people so now you killed a person we are going to kill you" I mean that doesn't make one bit of sense.
Though last time I saw a documentry about prison life and that just looked like a normal hotel to me.. TV, Pool table, Quite big rooms to sleep in etc which I think is absurd also.
Of course working towards putting the 'convict' back in the society will not always work but I think executing a person for whatever thing he did is just wrong.
Still amazes me that so many people voted "Yes" though.

 

[Calaen]

Let's take a rapist and childabuser. Even though it also pure evil, then the abused/raped does at least survive and can get professional help and perhabs get a normal life again, while the rapist and childabuser can get help too (which he/she REALLY needs).

When it comes to murderer you can't help the victim (as you can't wake the death), but only the murderer.
The murderer has done something that can't be done good again, nor do I see a reason to keep him in the prison like an animal and just "use" him for work we wouldn't do ourselves, but rather end his/her pain by an execution as I see this as more justifying than anything else.

Are you trying to make me laugh? People that rape and abuse children cannot be cured its not a disease. I would rather clear the streets of these sick bastards than the murderers. Someone gets murdered they die end of (family and friends suffer but people die so it gets better with time).

Someone gets raped, abused as a kid their head is fucked up for life, regardless of therapy you cannot take away the violation of being raped ever not ever. Victims often become scared of leaving their own homes while the fuckers that done it walk freely as if nothing is wrong.

I am against death penalty so voted "no".
Find it such a hypocrit thing to do like "It is illegal to kill people so now you killed a person we are going to kill you" I mean that doesn't make one bit of sense.
Though last time I saw a documentry about prison life and that just looked like a normal hotel to me.. TV, Pool table, Quite big rooms to sleep in etc which I think is absurd also.
Of course working towards putting the 'convict' back in the society will not always work but I think executing a person for whatever thing he did is just wrong.
Still amazes me that so many people voted "Yes" though.

I agree with what your saying, however if you stick them in a cold dark room for the length of their sentence they gonna come out and do the wrong thing again.

 

[Marc]

End of the day, as someone has already said, life is the most precious thing we have. If someone is willing to take that away from someone, they should be prepared to lose their own.

Im sorry, but our government is too soft. Fuck the PC brigade tbh. Bring back the death penalty and while we are it, rapists should have their nobs cut off, as should paedafiles (sp) who should also be publicy named and shamed and not get any police protection what so ever, should the public decide to take the law into their own hands.

 

[old.Tohtori]

And we welcome you to Salem 2006!

 

[Marc]

So you think its total coincidence that the increase in crime over the past 10-20 years has nothing to do with the PC brigade?

When I was a lad, if i even looked at a copper in the wrong way id get a slap round the head.

And tell me, if a rapist raped your mother/sister/daughter youd say "ahh nevermind, he can just go to jail for 5 years and serve 2 for good behaviour"? I very much doubt it.

 

[Chronictank]

So you think its total coincidence that the increase in crime over the past 10-20 years has nothing to do with the PC brigade?

When I was a lad, if i even looked at a copper in the wrong way id get a slap round the head.

And tell me, if a rapist raped your mother/sister/daughter youd say "ahh nevermind, he can just go to jail for 5 years and serve 2 for good behaviour"? I very much doubt it.

thats completely offtopic
but i agree with you most sentances are a joke nowdays,
but if they got money out of the inmates then the prison system would fund itself (like in America in the 1980's) and if they were forced into hard labour they would think twice about re-offending.
I read in the metro the other day 3 kids kicked the sh** out of a barman and killed him, they are getting off with 3-5yrs ....

But back on topic, regardless what he did his life is not yours to take just as the people he killed are not his to take as i said before.
He also will suffer less if you kill him than if he was to stay in prison all his life

 

[tris-]

force them into suicide then, if we arnt allowed to take life (although its fine if they do).

give em a cyanide capsule, a rope, a razor what ever. leave in a piece of shit room for a while and wait n see.