Solar & Powerwall 2

[Scouse]

I'm interested in what you have listed as the breakdown in terms of your energy requirements.

Doesn't matter. The principle of being able to access modern energy infrastructure if my requirements (which are set by me and not by some sort of "I think that's excessive" moral comittee) is the important point you seem to be ignoring.

We're going to be seeing much higher electrical energy usage across the country. Our infrastructure needs upgrading - and as 1 in 5 of us live rural then that desparately needs doing.

The engineer from the energy network operator is on-board with that completely (including a walkthrough of my energy requirements - which he said I might be under-estimating if I end up going down the heat pump route). Three phase is neither uncommon nor overkill. And, in fact - three phase is the current standard in street electricity (single phase is pre-WWII standard) - but only to connect a house to a single phase unless requested.

So, my desire to have access to modern electrical infrastructure - because it gives me the opportunity to run green - is a perfectly reasonable one.

Grid modernisation is what needs to happen. Not "fuck off Scouse for wanting to have a home that can run clean power".

 

[Moriath]

Absolutely - it's a fair point and I agree - I don't expect facilities to be the same (I only have to look at the internet connectivity).

But we have 9.6m people - or 17%+ of the population living in rural areas in the UK. We absolutely must have a plan for enabling the proper electrification of this huge swathe of our population in order to meet our climate change objectives. - and as we're electifying transport and heating (removing the burning of petrol, oil and gas) - then we need a plan for infrastructure upgrades. Not just power generation - but power transportation.

I'm 100% willing to meet any costs that come from the road to the house - and the distance from the road near me to my house means the costs I'm legally obliged to meet (with no complaints from me) is bigger than most people's. That's fair enough.

But infrastructure is governmental responsibility (well, not really - it's now "privately" owned power companies that don't want to do the work because it would hit shareholders profits).

So there's a gap - that needs filling, for nearly 20% of the population who need to electrify. And 100amps isn't going to cut it.


I reject your suggestion that connection to a modern power grid in a rural area is in any way "excessive". Yes, it's cheaper and simpleer to deliver in cities, but we can't leave 1 in 5 of the population with their dicks swinging in the wind, reliant on oil, petrol and gas, when those forms of energy are being urgently phased out.

I'm fifteen grand in for replacing the septic tank with a package sewerage treatment plant. I'm 8 grand in for running modern water piping to the nearest mains. Absolutely 100% take that on the chin as it's on my privately owned land and my privately owned connections.

But electrical connectivity to serve future usage is a minimum requirement - and we have infrastructure companies who are responsible for connecting people to modern infrastructure - and they're leaving rural areas in the lurch whilst paying out to shareholders.

That cannot be allowed to stand in this "green" day and age IMO.

Its not ’green’ to ramp up your electrical usage. Its green to move to energy and keep your energy usage low. We cannot go to a point of shifting huge amounts of power to every corner of the country. Its not green to replace x miles of cable which is still very servicable, just cause you want to use the equivalent of 5 normal houses.

the energy still has to be generated. And even if thats by wind or solar those generators still have to be created and maintained. All of which has an environmental cost.

1 charging point, would be enough for most peoples needs.

you are just gobbling resources for a single dwelling that would be good for sustaining many more than 1.

we cuss the haves with their huge grab of resources. This is what you are doing.

i cant see any way this is green. Or environmentally sustainable.

 

[Embattle]

Doesn't matter. The principle of being able to access modern energy infrastructure if my requirements (which are set by me and not by some sort of "I think that's excessive" moral comittee) is the important point you seem to be ignoring.

We're going to be seeing much higher electrical energy usage across the country. Our infrastructure needs upgrading - and as 1 in 5 of us live rural then that desparately needs doing.

The engineer from the energy network operator is on-board with that completely (including a walkthrough of my energy requirements - which he said I might be under-estimating if I end up going down the heat pump route). Three phase is neither uncommon nor overkill. And, in fact - three phase is the current standard in street electricity (single phase is pre-WWII standard) - but only to connect a house to a single phase unless requested.

So, my desire to have access to modern electrical infrastructure - because it gives me the opportunity to run green - is a perfectly reasonable one.

Grid modernisation is what needs to happen. Not "fuck off Scouse for wanting to have a home that can run clean power".

The same way as you are seemingly ignoring mine.

Actually we still aren't going to see the levels you need in the majority of homes, even in the future. Most people are not going to run two buildings and thus two sets of indoor appliances on one set of mains nor will they be installing multiple EV recharging points because the general way we use cars there isn't a need and that is even if they own their own car in the future.

I didn't say anything negative about 3 phase in fact I'm sure somewhere I said it would be nice to have and it is a more modern, what I did say and is still a fact is most homes don't have it and won't need it.

That is fine to want it but then you pay for it, the government isn't likely to ever force the DNOs to upgrade to that level since as I've already stated most don't need it and everyone is going to end paying for it.

Again that green argument isn't true, you can still run green but you want a exceptional setup which the majority won't need.

It is all moot since they aren't going to install more than the basic supply unless you pay for the additional costs which you say you won't do which is fine, so we go back to what I originally asked you about ideas on what you will do now?

When will you find out about the Solar Panels?

Is the battery worth it if you don't get the Solar panels since your requirements would be so high it would be quite a drain, the Tesla Powerwall has a usable capacity of 13.5kWh with a maximum continuous discharge of 3.68kW - 5kW and you can stack a maximum of 10 of them but then the cost is massive. There are a few bigger batteries systems but again the cost isn't that low at the moment.

 

[Scouse]

One of the most advanced coumtries on the planet - pre WWII electricity infrastructure for half the population. You happy with that? Don't think we need to modernise to hit our targets?

If we are to hit them then there's no other choice, btw...

DNO responsibility to modernise - if I waa to replace the cable myself I'd be doing it for four other properties - all to try to "do the right thing".

"Ramping up" electricity usage is exactly what needs to happen @Moriath - because it's got to take the load off gas and oil - and it's *much* more efficient to generate this centrally and distribute through the grid.

You haven't an argument on energy efficiency because I'm insulating and the conversion will be almost passivehaus standards. But I need it self-contained - for multiple reasons which I'm not going in to. It's not extravagant or excessive. It's modern-day requirement - and clearly DNO responsibility (but shareholders, right?).


Should hear on the solar this week @Embattle, but I'm not holding my breath. Neither on the answer, nor actually getting a response...

 

[Embattle]

So I take it the Solar panels don't fall under permitted development due to the Snowdonia area, a couple of questions can any neighbours see your house from theirs and are there examples elsewhere of solar panels being allowed?

 

[Scouse]

So I take it the Solar panels don't fall under permitted development due to the Snowdonia area, a couple of questions can any neighbours see your house from theirs and are there examples elsewhere of solar panels being allowed?

Nope - not permitted development due to the national park. No neighbours can see my house, no road goes past it - but a footpath up to an iron age burial chamber does. No examples elsewhere of solar panels in fields (other than a single panel) in the National Park that I'm aware of (I could make an argument for my house roof but for the overhanging trees making it pointless). You can do it on the roofs of farm buildings, but again, nope - don't have any farm buildings that face south and/or aren't already shaded by the same trees.

 

[Embattle]

Annoyingly problematic, I'm going to guess a wind turbine is also out of the question

 

[Moriath]

One of the most advanced coumtries on the planet - pre WWII electricity infrastructure for half the population. You happy with that? Don't think we need to modernise to hit our targets?

If we are to hit them then there's no other choice, btw...

DNO responsibility to modernise - if I waa to replace the cable myself I'd be doing it for four other properties - all to try to "do the right thing".

"Ramping up" electricity usage is exactly what needs to happen @Moriath - because it's got to take the load off gas and oil - and it's *much* more efficient to generate this centrally and distribute through the grid.

You haven't an argument on energy efficiency because I'm insulating and the conversion will be almost passivehaus standards. But I need it self-contained - for multiple reasons which I'm not going in to. It's not extravagant or excessive. It's modern-day requirement - and clearly DNO responsibility (but shareholders, right?).


Should hear on the solar this week @Embattle, but I'm not holding my breath. Neither on the answer, nor actually getting a response...

Yes the step from oil based things at generation are good. But you consume more than the planet can absorb of the materials used to create electricity in the first place and you are just as bad as those burning oil today.

its all got to be disposed of. Its all got a finite life. And a lot of it uses nasty chemicals to create and more power in a chicken and egg kinda way.

how also do you keep up with the demand if everyone goes consumer crazy needs more power and they cant build the things quick enough.

it seems such a backwards step from your usual save the planet use less energy should the the best thing. Kinda showing a contradiction of things, its ok if you like it. If you dont you will go to the end of the earth to say its shit.

 

[Scouse]

Not that I have to justify my life to you @Moriath - I don't mind being challenged given the fact I shout about green credentials, but I'm not sure you're being fair in your challenge. But to humour:

My aim is to use a similar (or lower) amount of energy overall. The intention is to use a different sort of energy more efficiently and take more polluting, less efficient energy sources out of the equation.

But to do that I need an increase in the amount of electricity I use. I intend to insulate heavily, build to modern standards and preserve heat and power usage. At the same time using vastly lower carbon impact sources. Peak demand on electricity usage could theoretically be much higher - but overall demand will be lower. And certainly much less polluting than the coal + electricity I'm using on this single, massively inefficient property right now and much more efficient (yet more expensive) than the gas + electric route that our piss poor infrastructure is currently going to end up forcing me down.

I'm (trying to) back this with cold hard-earned cash and put my money where my mouth is.


You don't need to tell me what efficiency objectives are or what's best for the environment. I'm doing my level best to do exactly that, so I'm not sure why you're being weird about it.

 

[Scouse]

Annoyingly problematic, I'm going to guess a wind turbine is also out of the question

I think I could potentially get a turbine through planning but I've not looked into it because we're too sheltered. Even when the prevailing wind is twatting up a mahoosive gale we're relatively calm. Big mountain range between us and the normal direction of flow - and even if it does come up the valley the way the topology of the land is means that the wind goes way overhead. Forest all around too.

It's solar in a field (unlikely) or 3 phase (seemingly less likely) - or gas/oil. Which sucks balls.

 

[MYstIC G]

I think I could potentially get a turbine through planning but I've not looked into it because we're too sheltered. Even when the prevailing wind is twatting up a mahoosive gale we're relatively calm. Big mountain range between us and the normal direction of flow - and even if it does come up the valley the way the topology of the land is means that the wind goes way overhead. Forest all around too.

It's solar in a field (unlikely) or 3 phase (seemingly less likely) - or gas/oil. Which sucks balls.

What's your roof construction made up of, could you potentially fit (not wanky Tesla) PV roof tiles?

GB-Sol :: PV Slate in National Park

www.gb-sol.co.uk

 

[Scouse]

What's your roof construction made up of, could you potentially fit (not wanky Tesla) PV roof tiles?

Trees overshadow. Roof space not a goer.

I appreciate the attempt to assist but I've nailed every single possible angle. The planning request I've got in is a hail mary tbh. I'm fully expecting to be forced to put in fossil fuel by an intransigent national park authority - but I don't really blame them. I blame our successive governments for not having a plan for electrification and renewables that should have been underway when I was at university.

Remember when we all watched the internet be born and immediately went "woah! why are we spending fuckloads on town centres? shops are going to be obsolete! why not work from home? town centres are going to be no good for anything other than pubs" - yet the councils were still spending all their infrastructure money there rather than improving local access in a sustainable fashion?

It beggars belief to me that we've known what to do for so long, but haven't really done anything about it. And given the noise coming out of all the years of meetings, Paris and now Cop26 - we still don't get it

 

[Moriath]

Not that I have to justify my life to you @Moriath - I don't mind being challenged given the fact I shout about green credentials, but I'm not sure you're being fair in your challenge. But to humour:

My aim is to use a similar (or lower) amount of energy overall. The intention is to use a different sort of energy more efficiently and take more polluting, less efficient energy sources out of the equation.

But to do that I need an increase in the amount of electricity I use. I intend to insulate heavily, build to modern standards and preserve heat and power usage. At the same time using vastly lower carbon impact sources. Peak demand on electricity usage could theoretically be much higher - but overall demand will be lower. And certainly much less polluting than the coal + electricity I'm using on this single, massively inefficient property right now and much more efficient (yet more expensive) than the gas + electric route that our piss poor infrastructure is currently going to end up forcing me down.

I'm (trying to) back this with cold hard-earned cash and put my money where my mouth is.


You don't need to tell me what efficiency objectives are or what's best for the environment. I'm doing my level best to do exactly that, so I'm not sure why you're being weird about it.

Its not weird to wonder why an eco sympathetic, don’t fuck the poor people advocate. Is demanding that everyone pay more on their electricity bill so your building x miles off the grid by over head wires should have a state of the art energy supply.

when there are people in london or liverpool wondering how they gonna be able to turn the leccy on tomorrow.

if you are the only one who take use from said cabling. Or your neighbours are quite happy with what they have. Why should the rest of the country. That happily lives on what you currently have, pay for it.

you have the same ( and they are gonna upgrade yr transformer for free) as virtually everyone else.

if you choose to live at the end of a long lane away from most others then expect to get the minimum acceptable connections. Cause its fucking expensive to get them all the way out there.

unless you are paying for it all. And i dont care about a 20k septic tank. I mean anything above the average then you are taking money away from those less well off than you cause of your whim to be isolated.

if you have shit loads and can put what ever generator you like in then fairy nuff. Nothing i can say will make any difference. But you seem to have enough to go so far but not enough to grease the wheels.

so dont preach about person x in far off country being poor if you expect our government and facilities to panda to your whims.

 

[Scouse]

So, basically, you're likely bitter about previous posts, think you've found something you can have a pop about (if, of course, you ditch logical and rational thinking and ignore all sensible facts pointed out) and want to try to stick the boot in.

Carry on

 

[Embattle]

So with 2021 now finish lets compare the years with a massive amount of graphs:



Home Usage.



Solar Generation.



Powerwall Storage.



Grid.



Home Sources.



Solar Desinations.



Powerwall Discharge/Charge.



Grid Import/Export.



Impact.

 

[smurkin]

The two years look surprisingly similar.

 

[Scouse]

April/May firmly cemented as our sunniest months too.

Really cool @Embattle

 

[Embattle]

Although still being processed the other day I finally decided to apply for Outgoing Octopus, although a beta product in essence it means we get 7.5p for every kW to the grid.

 

[smurkin]

Although still being processed the other day I finally decided to apply for Outgoing Octopus, although a beta product in essence it means we get 7.5p for every kW to the grid.

If the price of energy increases, could you get more money for the power you push back to the grid - in principle?

I wonder if Offgem should be regulating this sort of thing to make sure small suppliers get a good price. Encouraging the transition to renewables etc...

 

[Embattle]

If the price of energy increases, could you get more money for the power you push back to the grid - in principle?

I wonder if Offgem should be regulating this sort of thing to make sure small suppliers get a good price. Encouraging the transition to renewables etc...

The previous payment system (FIT) was more generous but that ended a couple of years ago, the current one (SEG) is more open market based thus less generous.

Well they do 2 outgoing Octopus, mine is fixed at 7.5p but they also do a 30 minute variable which could see you paid more at times but of course it could see you paid less as well

 

[Embattle]

So got the Gas smart meter fixed, in essence when it was installed the battery was pretty much flat on the Gas side thus no data was being sent the the smart meter unit inside the house.

Exports from our house over the last month according to Octopus:



Out of interest I did a comparison at how much we would be charged if we were to change from our current energy tariffs:



Fortunately we've another year left but I'm not expecting a better result in a year at the moment, about the only advantage is we will be in Summer.

 

[Jupitus]

Relevant:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Apa2WcG9z0

 

[Embattle]

I saw something added to the Tesla application a little while ago, it seems Octopus energy is involved in now delivering it for customers with a Tesla Powerwall and Solar:

Tesla Energy Plan from Octopus Energy

The Tesla Energy Plan is an energy tariff specifically designed for homes with solar and Powerwall, offering 100% clean electricity. Calculate your savings now.

octopus.energy

 

[old.Osy]

Plants - UK Electricity Production

electricityproduction.uk

 

[Scouse]

So then @Embattle - it's pretty grim reading in December:



Solar & Powerwall averaging 8% and 4% of supply of your home Demand, Grid being 96% (assuming some charging of powerwall from grid).

That's a 5.6kw array, right? (I was thinking of a 15kw array - so if it's 3x bigger than yours even then I'm looking at only 4.8kw daily output in December).

Questions are: 1) How big is your house? 2) You don't use solar for heating, right?

 

[Scouse]

You do me the same extract for a full calendar year please @Embattle? Maybe last October to this October pretty please?

 

[Embattle]

Here is a Tesla Impact diagram for that same month:




The array is 5.04kw with 8x315w panels facing East and another 8x315w facing West, ours however is limited 3.7kw as that is the maximum our inverter can do plus it keeps us within the regulations. Remember above 3.7kw there are extra steps and requirements and ultimately money and time.

It is a 4 bedroom detached with Kitchen/Dining room, Lounge, Study, Utility, bathroom and 2 ensuites.

Yes our heating it Gas, although the tank does have a backup emersion heater.

So I can't set specific time frames on the Tesla app but here is the data for the year:




I've attached the whole year by daily amounts from start of Oct 2021 to end of September 2022.

I would also point out that the Tesla data will never show the EV usage, the Pod Point was recently installed and the tails are before the Tesla Powerwall's to stop it drawing from the battery.

 

[Scouse]

So really, it's a perfect storm of shitness:

By month:



Full year by day:



So from April>October you're exceeding your electricity demand by production capacity. But from October>April you're pulling mostly from the grid.

For me - even with 5x the productive capacity I'd still not meet your electricty demand during the winter months - never mind your gas demand too. And I'd have so much excess capacity in the summer it'd be silly - but I'd never be able to poon it back up the grid and I'd have to ditch a load of my excess production into the ground.

Potentially, I could run absolutely everything fully off 'leccy April > October - heating, power, etc. etc. And then in the winter months I'd be hitting 30% of my electricty production requirements and have to heat using a backup source (likely gas as drawing that much energy from the grid would bankrupt me).

This really does suck when it comes to reducing my environmental impact.

 

[Scouse]

In fact, further theorising from your 3.7kw output, vs house demand (minus heating (do you cook on gas or induction?)) shows that a 15kw array would be massive overkill for me:

 

[Scouse]

This bit is the fucker. 5 times fuck all is still fuck all. 5 times loads is a fucking lot though.

So it shows, on a home basis, that solar is fantastic in the summer months - and we should be looking at this on an industrial basis for the UK (well, we should have done what the UN environment head said in 2008 - solared up the whole of the sahara - we'd have increased the albedo of the earth (lowering temperatures) and produced enough energy for Europe.

But for my needs? I want a clean backup solution that doesn't mean burning fossil fuels. And heat-pump ain't it.

It's another example of why passivehaus standards need writing into law for the UK housing stock - and for a massive remedial programme of insulation needs to be stood up - for everyone.