so my dad is a psycho (legal question) long

[liloe]

I'd like to add something constructive, now that I had time to think about it. I've never faced such a situation, but I'll make you an offer. If you ever need to contact people in France I can translate stuff for you if you need it.

 

[Urgluf]

I'd like to add something constructive, now that I had time to think about it. I've never faced such a situation, but I'll make you an offer. If you ever need to contact people in France I can translate stuff for you if you need it.

a frenchman in germany? hm
I can do English -> Dutch if needed

 

[Bracken]

and does the fact that he now lives in France have any bearing on it?

This is the bit I'm not sure about. He's certainly committed a number of criminal offences under UK law and as someone else said collect the evidence of what he sends you, write down times of any phonecalls and so on. Regardless of any injunction, if I recall harrassment and threats to kill come under offences against the person. I'm just not sure with UK citizens living abroad as to how they are dealt with - start by making a complaint to your local police and presenting them with the evidence you have. The fact he's in an EU country should make things easier to deal with as I'm sure there are protocols in place.

 

[liloe]

a frenchman in germany? hm
I can do English -> Dutch if needed

Actually I'm a half French half German guy who lives in Germany and studies English/French/Portugese translation =)

 

[Marc]

With regards to me and my gf, we had letters that were posted through the door, phone messages and text messages saying he was going to do this and going to do that to us. The police basically said they couldnt be used as evidence because they would have to prove he actually meant what he said, which was impossible. The only way he would be arrested and charged was if he actually laid a finger on us, but in 99% of cases were someone is harrassing or threatening you, he never did. The way I see it, if someone is going to do something to you they just do it, they dont mouth off about it. I had little faith in our countries police system, I had even less after this incident. They basically couldnt be arsed and left it to me to sort it out. They are a shower, who are only concerned with people breaking the speed limit by a couple of miles an hour, or busting someone for alittle bit of weed. Tupuc summed the police up perfectly.

 

[Dreamor]

Personally, I've never had this problem with a family member - but have with a local gang.
Your best bet would be to do as much as you possibly can, legal wise, and see from there. People may say 'take things into your own hands' but they really must be a last resort. Don't make a situation, if you see him or think there could be even the slightest situation where he could say pick your child up from school (i.e. your running late) then phone the nursery / school and I'm more than sure that someone would not mind waiting 5-10 minutes whilst you drive there. Your sister will also have to explain to the nursery / school about your situation, yes its a private thing to your family - but best not leaving things open for attack (metaphorically speaking.)

Guy sounds like a real nut-case, while he may have been in the army and a para, it does not give the guy an excuse to abuse you and your sister.

Have you tried speaking to any of his old friends? perhaps his old regiment might help? Also, when you spoke to the Police, did you explain that your father has had Military training? it sounds stupid, but once you have - your considered a lethal weapon (with your fists anyway.)

best of luck and stay safe mate, hope it gets sorted

 

[Naetha]

One thing I can recommend is getting a panic alarm for your sister. You can get panic alarms that are activated by way of a kind of necklace that will call a phone number rather than just make a loud noise.

Something like this: http://www.quicksafe.co.uk/phone-panic-alarm.htm

Also make sure your niece is never left unsupervised, or in the care of someone that doesn't understand that the ONLY person to collect her should be a designated person (i.e. your sister or her fella etc).

Other than that, there's not much the police/law can do - just hope that like most threats like this, they rarely come to fruition.

 

[Marc]

Personally, I've never had this problem with a family member - but have with a local gang.
Your best bet would be to do as much as you possibly can, legal wise, and see from there. People may say 'take things into your own hands' but they really must be a last resort. Don't make a situation, if you see him or think there could be even the slightest situation where he could say pick your child up from school (i.e. your running late) then phone the nursery / school and I'm more than sure that someone would not mind waiting 5-10 minutes whilst you drive there. Your sister will also have to explain to the nursery / school about your situation, yes its a private thing to your family - but best not leaving things open for attack (metaphorically speaking.)

Guy sounds like a real nut-case, while he may have been in the army and a para, it does not give the guy an excuse to abuse you and your sister.

Have you tried speaking to any of his old friends? perhaps his old regiment might help? Also, when you spoke to the Police, did you explain that your father has had Military training? it sounds stupid, but once you have - your considered a lethal weapon (with your fists anyway.)

best of luck and stay safe mate, hope it gets sorted

Good point about the nursery/school thing. If you tell them the situation, they will make sure they only let the child go home with someone who is designated to pick them up.

 

[soze]

I can't belive the Police will not act if you have proof of someone saying they will hurt you or your children surely the police must act, if he live abroad i can see its harder but to just fob you off is shocking.

 

[tris-]

I can't belive the Police will not act if you have proof of someone saying they will hurt you or your children surely the police must act, if he live abroad i can see its harder but to just fob you off is shocking.

agree with him. i thought any threats of violence are supposed to be acted upon by the police.

 

[Tilda]

I'm sorry to say, but theres not a huge amount you can do.

The main hurdle is that he's in france, which means they have jurisdiction. The offences he has done, aren't really up to the level of asking for extradition.
If he moves back to the UK, then certainly things could be brought against him.

I'm not 100% sure on the difference between an injunction and restraining order, as effectivley they both restrain you from doing something. They may be some help.
As people have said, make sure you have a panic alarm and your sister has sorted nursery etc so they know only xyz will take your neice home.
Additionally, as said, collect up letters, write a diary of the things he's said to you, with days, times etc. If say, you call him, and he threatens you, include a copy of your phone bill for that date so it corroborates your side of the story.
Then, when you have this, go back to the police station with your sister and ask to speak to someone important. I dont know how big the police station is, but I'd guess Cheif Inspector or Superintendent or perhaps someone from CID.
Explain what he's done, the fact that he has military training and so there is no way you could defend yourselves if he did attack, and that he has threatened you. (although re-reading your original post, it dosn't sound like he's acctually threatened to kill/hurt anybody?) The fact that he's in france may benefit you here as they may be able to raise a flag on his passport before he gets into the UK.

Any more questions fire away. (although I'd rather not try to pick out what crimes he may or may not have done as a) its hard without knowing everything, and b) I last did criminal law 2 years ago and only just passed it and my notes on it are not with me right now!)

Remember, at the end of the day, he may just be being a wanker, its a lot of effort to organise to go to england and do anything. I'd like to think that perhaps he's just being a wanker.

Another thing I just thought of is perhaps complaining to the french police, although I dont know who you'd talk to on this. I'd imagine french local police would be quite dismissive, perhaps Liloe or someone knows what department etc its best to talk to to get a result in this. Although, if all france does is throw him out, he'll be back in the UK and possibly more trouble.

Tild

 

[Dreamor]

agree with him. i thought any threats of violence are supposed to be acted upon by the police.

From speaking to a ex-copper here, they should at least tell you they will look into it

Raven, have you got a Police Incident number or anything? Have you spoken to Citizens Advice? (only cos I think they are cheap / free)

 

[Bracken]

The police basically said they couldnt be used as evidence because they would have to prove he actually meant what he said, which was impossible.

They were talking bollox. At the very least it comes under Section 4a Public Order Act 1986 which deals with intentional harrassment, alarm or distress. This means they only have to prove that he sent you the stuff knowing that it harrassed or distressed you, which means aslong as you've told him not to do it anymore then by continuing he is committing the offence. It's nothing to do with whether he intended to carry it out. The only reason they fob you off (assuming you've kept records of conversations and what he's sent you) is because they can't be arsed - and if that's the case then follow the complaints procedure. There's nothing like a properly lodged complaint to get them moving. The Claire Bernal case report that was in the news yesterday is a classic case of police laziness and people being fobbed off and it sadly ended up in someone being murdered.

 

[Marc]

They were talking bollox. At the very least it comes under Section 4a Public Order Act 1986 which deals with intentional harrassment, alarm or distress. This means they only have to prove that he sent you the stuff knowing that it harrassed or distressed you, which means aslong as you've told him not to do it anymore then by continuing he is committing the offence. It's nothing to do with whether he intended to carry it out. The only reason they fob you off (assuming you've kept records of conversations and what he's sent you) is because they can't be arsed - and if that's the case then follow the complaints procedure. There's nothing like a properly lodged complaint to get them moving. The Claire Bernal case report that was in the news yesterday is a classic case of police laziness and people being fobbed off and it sadly ended up in someone being murdered.

Which is why I have zero faith in the police. I did some research about harrassment, in particular the telecommunications act, as lots of threats were via voice mail. I printed these off and showed it to them. We were basically told to fuck off and stop wasting their time. One police officer did actually tell me to stick one on him when I saw him (to which I obliged, a few times) and claim you felt intimidated if he pressed charges against you, to which I would have no case to answer.

I just dont like police full stop. I dont trust them, which is sad really as they are the first port of call should you need help. "soz i took 4 hours to come and see you, we were playing traffic snooker" etc etc (Some police forces actually have a trophy for who can get the biggest break in getting convictions to owners of a certain coloured car, you have to get them in order, ie, red, black, red, black, red, black up to yellow, green, brown etc). The things ive seen them do, makes my blood boil aswell.

 

[soze]

Which is why I have zero faith in the police. I did some research about harrassment, in particular the telecommunications act, as lots of threats were via voice mail. I printed these off and showed it to them. We were basically told to fuck off and stop wasting their time. One police officer did actually tell me to stick one on him when I saw him (to which I obliged, a few times) and claim you felt intimidated if he pressed charges against you, to which I would have no case to answer.

I just dont like police full stop. I dont trust them, which is sad really as they are the first port of call should you need help. "soz i took 4 hours to come and see you, we were playing traffic snooker" etc etc (Some police forces actually have a trophy for who can get the biggest break in getting convictions to owners of a certain coloured car, you have to get them in order, ie, red, black, red, black, red, black up to yellow, green, brown etc). The things ive seen them do, makes my blood boil aswell.

I think the best copper to try speak to should any need anything would be the community support officer they are there to make you happy maybe they might be willing to help with crimes that really affect people.

But yeah having spoke to the police befor when my car windows were smashed they showed up to look after they had been replaced It dose seems if its not a bank robbery or high speed chase they can't be bothered with you.

 

[elbeek]

Raven, here are a few pointers that may help.

As already mentioned, keep a record of all contact he makes, a log and/or records of all phone calls.

Keep all letters he sends.

Speak with your solicitor and get an injunction. These don't cost alot. Upon the first issue of the injunction there will be no power of arrest for the police. At this stage it will be purely a civil matter but, if he breaks the injunction in anyway, and/or threatens violence he will be recalled to the court issuing the said injunction and will be held in what's called "contempt of court". This results in a fine and a bollocking and nothing more at first, but it is all recorded for future reference.

Again at this stage he will be given chance to redeem himself but, you can now ask for an injunction with a power of arrest. If he breaches this he will be arrested by the police, kept in custody until the next available court etc. Obviously at this poiunt, if he continues to be a wanker he will face a period of time in prison.

I would also speak to your local beat bobby and explain the situation to him/her. Show him the letters etc and ask for a panic alarm to be installed in your house/anyone elses who is in danger.

These panic alarms are linked to the local police who will respond to it as it is classed as a grade 1 incident. The police will also start to keep a history of any incidents which can be used in any future court proceedings.

On a side note, please ignore some of the advice here about " the police are shit and can't arrest" etc. They cannot arrest unless he actually commits a criminal offence. Even threats to kill is very difficult to prove which is why I advise you to start via the civil courts in the first instance.

I hope this is of help, if you want to talk further pm me.

Andy

 

[Marc]

I would also speak to your local beat bobby and explain the situation to him/her. Show him the letters etc and ask for a panic alarm to be installed in your house/anyone elses who is in danger.

Would help if we still had these. When I were a lad there always a local beat bobby. Ive not seen one for years.

On a side note, please ignore some of the advice here about " the police are shit and can't arrest" etc. They cannot arrest unless he actually commits a criminal offence. Even threats to kill is very difficult to prove which is why I advise you to start via the civil courts in the first instance.

I hope this is of help, if you want to talk further pm me.

Oh great, so we have to wait until we are set upon before the police will act. Even then, if there are no witnesses chances are nothing would come of it. This is what pisses me off. "not enough evidence son, CPS will just throw it out". What do you mean not enough evidence. The voice mail that says "Liz, its Jason, im gonna fucking kill you" Or when he busted the door down and ran in the house, scaring 3 young children in the process wasnt enough evidence for you? What happened to breaking and entering?

Not having a go at you Andy, you know my circumstances as you gave me some sound advice. Just a pity I ended up banging my head against a brick wall

 

[Bracken]

They cannot arrest unless he actually commits a criminal offence.

Harrassment, threats and the like are criminal offences. Comes under Public Order Act 1986 and if the behaviour is intended to cause harrassment alarm or distress then it's sufficient for a prosecution. All that's needed to be proven is that the behaviour happened (e.g. text messages, phone calls etc ) and that it's intention was to cause alarm or distress (the nature of the phonecalls, texts etc. is usually self explanatory on that score). They don't have to carry them out or physically do anything. The only reason the police don't act is either a) they can't be arsed (perhaps due to lack of resources) or b) insufficient evidence (which is why all evidence should be kept - recorded phonecalls, text messages etc do hold up in court, I've seen it happen).

The only issue in Raven's case is the guy living in France - I'm not sure how that is dealt with.

 

[Marc]

So basically its like everything in the UK. A postcode lottery?

 

[soze]

So basically its like everything in the UK. A postcode lottery?

There are community officers who can be very helpful as long as you can speak to them. They do PR and report crimes ect as they are not real coppers i don't think

 

[Bracken]

So basically its like everything in the UK. A postcode lottery?

Yep. You'd be amazed (hmm probably not) at the differences between how crimes are dealt with by different police/courts/Crown Prosecution in different areas, aswell as the different sentences given for the same offences.

 

[Ezteq]

there are a whole bunch of new stalker laws that probably cover this, first thing for your sister to do is go see citizens advice, make an appointment and she should be able to see a legal specialist.

and you might want to suggect to her she gets in touch with her kids school so they are on alert and know to contact her if anyone comes saying "its ok im her grand dad" r.e. your niece. also don't scare her but make sure her home is secure, you can get intruder alarms from DIY stores for about £20 (any blathering about the price and think how much you'd be grateful if it saves you) also a tip we got after our little episode is keep over cleaner (the spray not the foam lol) handy its legal alternative to pepper spray and will do more damage as it will actually blind and corrode.

Another thing to do is contact the local police and see if she can get a panic alarm system set up, get her to say "I am in fear of my personal safety and that of my child" then they can not ignore this, ask them about advisory groups too.

and whilst i hope (and probably will be the case) nothing will happen its always better to be safe and on guard because it doesnt take much and if your not prepared for it and something does happen youll kick yourself.

 

[tris-]

Another thing to do is contact the local police and see if she can get a panic alarm system set up, get her to say "I am in fear of my personal safety and that of my child" then they can not ignore this, ask them about advisory groups too.

bear in mind they probably will. considering they have to work to what funding allows, rather than what common sense dictates :\

 

[Raven]

well thanks for the advise folks, a lot of things to think about, i am going up there this weekend so that will make it easier for me i guess, sister has an appointment with a solicitor so will have to see what comes from that.