Skills in daoc?

[Karam_gruul]

bollocks, theres not a jot of skill in this game, as i've always said.

theres as much skill in this game as.... using microsoft word.

no matter what class you are, all it involves is clicking a target, pressing a button and waiting for the out come. some idiots (novamir) might argue that you have to be in the right position if your say an infil and wanna use perf/backstab, but why is that skillfull? thats just.... standing infront/behind someone.

skillful games are things like CS (having to aim, strafe, know which weapon to be using, change weapons continuously, reload, crouch, jump, use surroundings as cover etc etc symutainously. the only known mmorpg with skill is UO, where its essential to memorise every key on your keyboard, and macro a spell to each one (if your a pvping mage). and know exactly which spells cancel others out, and even (if your uber like me) knowing what spells are JUST by the words said by the player. eg In Nox = poison.

so no, theres no skill what so ever in daoc. people like novamir who have tried to accomplish something on here only to realise its an easy game with no skill involved try to convince themselves that they're skillful.

time/sadness are all that is needed to succeed in daoc.

 

[oblivion_6]

so what your saying then is playing this game is just clicking buttons?

lol thats what CS and other you mention are about

These are computer games

It doesnt matter if you spend time at daoc if you aint got skill enough to understand your class then you wont suceed.

Say you decided to make a mage and decided to go 1/3 in all specs that would be stupid but heay you could spend the time with it and you probably wouldnt be succesful.

The same goes for healers, just being able to clik on the heal spell and your target doesnt count for **** out in daoc world. If youve got paper armour warriors (mages ) youll need to keep a track of the battle progress and ensure you heal prior to too many hits killing them. Also seen as some healers work as tanks you need to understand when and where to muck in and help with the wacking!

To con a weegie phrase "your talking pish big yin!"

 

[Karam_gruul]

Originally posted by oblivion_6
so what your saying then is playing this game is just clicking buttons?

lol thats what CS and other you mention are about

These are computer games

It doesnt matter if you spend time at daoc if you aint got skill enough to understand your class then you wont suceed.

Say you decided to make a mage and decided to go 1/3 in all specs that would be stupid but heay you could spend the time with it and you probably wouldnt be succesful.

The same goes for healers, just being able to clik on the heal spell and your target doesnt count for **** out in daoc world. If youve got paper armour warriors (mages ) youll need to keep a track of the battle progress and ensure you heal prior to too many hits killing them. Also seen as some healers work as tanks you need to understand when and where to muck in and help with the wacking!

To con a weegie phrase "your talking pish big yin!"

wtf are you talking about, be quiet.

knowing how to spec isnt skill! wtf?? thats knowledge, which comes from being sad enough to read up on what class your about to make. theres no skill in making a char! wtf???

and keeping up with the pace of a battle isnt skill either, wtf? its..... just... watching lol, theres no skill in it. its just observation! jesus..

let me put it this way. everyone in CS is even, there are no over powered classes, there are no under powered classes, yet there are some people who are far better than others (me). why would that be? because they're better at it! they're more skillful at it!!

novamir/wuren may be able to kill me in a duel, but thats ONLY because they're classes are well over powered, what skill is there in pressing they're moose button, followed by they're ignore pain button? while all i have is IP. see what i mean?

nuff said

 

[oblivion_6]

Jez m8 you seem to get really annoyed by this lol

Firstly if wuren can kick your butt coz hes got more RAs would that not imply that hes got more RP's and therefore has worked to be better than you?

CS can really be compared to this game as in this game your items and abilities make you the player you are. Although your abilities do count.

If youve ever been in a fin group were tanks constantly lose aggro and dont stick to their mob, or when a healer uses up the majority of his mana by using way more powerful than needed heals.

True what you say about time making you good is true but heay thats true of any game, obviously if you start say riding a bike and fall and try again, the more you try and spend time learning the better you become.

I thought this was like the main thing life was about, learning

You obviously dont enjoy the setup with DAOC so why not leave?

 

[Chenuba]

Originally posted by tankster
yup i play with effects all

i got windows98

Me 2

 

[Talifer]

Originally posted by oblivion_6
Jez m8 you seem to get really annoyed by this lol

Firstly if wuren can kick your butt coz hes got more RAs would that not imply that hes got more RP's and therefore has worked to be better than you?

CS can really be compared to this game as in this game your items and abilities make you the player you are. Although your abilities do count.

If youve ever been in a fin group were tanks constantly lose aggro and dont stick to their mob, or when a healer uses up the majority of his mana by using way more powerful than needed heals.

True what you say about time making you good is true but heay thats true of any game, obviously if you start say riding a bike and fall and try again, the more you try and spend time learning the better you become.

I thought this was like the main thing life was about, learning

You obviously dont enjoy the setup with DAOC so why not leave?

I think what Karam is trying to say is you need to make a distinction between skill and knowledge

Knowledge is knowing what to do
Skill is being able to do it

DAoC isn't skill heavy, it's knowledge heavy

I know I should hit that bard, I press /stick, F6, style, style, style. It's not hard to press those buttons (Though it's not skillless!). Knowledge > Skill in DAoC

Talifer

 

[optical-]

It aint really skill you need, just being able to play your class well and pick the right target. Seeing a zerker attacking a hero at the start of a fight is really annoying.
You can always tell a bad player from a good player, skill isnt what seperates them though, its more of their knowledge of the game.
Everyone says how great LA is but, from what ive seen, they win there fights down to timing. Alot of the time ive seen them attack during or after fights.

 

[inuyasha]

yeah

I gotta agree with karam really =)

Knowledge is rather important in this game, although it might be even more important in for instance everquest or anarchy i dont know. Its not your "skill" to make other do what you say, like someone implied, and warcraft and quake 3 is ALOT different then regular team games as cs and the others you mentioned =) Both is "mainly" based on one on one (q3 ffa) or two on two playing, and is not that much team strats as you might imply =)

Speak as much as you want about skillfull players and such, but listen to this setting:
I had two duels with a champion, won both fairly easy.
The champion traded away the account to a guys little brother, who then had played a champ for one day before i dueled him as well.....i got pwnd.

Also, i have been teaching a new mate of mine about all that is needed to know this game in most realms within the last 3 weeks hes been around..so the knowledge is not that hard to get either =)

Not really sure why someone (before karam began to chat) said that it was bs there was no skills in daoc, case i never said it was not. However i said it was quite easy to understand, dont take long, and that "most" fights and such people claim skill for, is decided beforehand from the class combinations, and could have been equally well done by someone who had played the char for 1 week rather then one year. Try this in wc3/cs/q3 and train someone who have only played for 1 week and fight me or karam...and you see what im talking about =)

Mainly started this post case i got tired of all this "who is the best on exal" and "elite guilds" and such. Your not superiouly elite to someone, you just have a char combination who simply cant loose = much rps = makes the combination even better. How skill is measured in the rps gained by people with 90 in most resists during combat is beyond me.

Never said it was the purpose that it should be a pure skill game either, but i have never seen anyone brag about other peoples knowledge in here, since this is what at least some people here said was more important =)

 

[Fame]

Originally posted by optical-
Everyone says how great LA is but, from what ive seen, they win there fights down to timing. Alot of the time ive seen them attack during or after fights.

Of course you will see that alot, because if you kill some other group/player, we communicate with them, so we know where you are and what numbers you have, everyone does that (at least in hib).

maybe you all you see from that is that we kill oom and ooe players, yeah well, cant say that we dont, because that is clearly a easier win there than fighting a group fully rdy to fight.

Not saying that we dont fight people who have not just fought someone else, just saying that, i think everyone would do that.

 

[inuyasha]

yet another reply =)

Originally posted by Novamir

skill does not mean you have the most RPs. but without skill you won't earn as much as the next person. Skill + teaming(how you group) + playtime = RPs.

This is what im trying to counter
My claim is that any experienced player would have had as much rps as wuren/tankster or "insert pbaoe mage here" if he was allowed into those groups and played as much

In other words, with exception on CC'ers and healers...
Teaming + playtime = RPs

I play like i play, and i have tried many different groups, and today me, roac and a level 22 bard took out more albs then i usually manage in a "rush in and try to get rps" group with total newbs. This is not case the total newbs dont have skill, but they dont have good teams (aka no bard or no resist or simply 5 mages and 3 nightshades and such, you see my point) Insert the same players in a team where you have LA setup (yes, you are perfecty examples for my points =D) and a good bard and you get alot of rps

Btw..
Lots of knowledge to learn in this game, lots of people are WAY superiour to each others here.
But that dont give rps.
The knowledge needed for rps....is learned in a week =)


and.
im sitting on a lousy comp with 800x600 as max this week...still i use effects all and play all day long, not really sure where you get
the idea from that you cant....guess your a zergling


You have been Point'ed!

 

[Novamir]

karam, if it's so easy how come you accomplished nothing? you can go on insulting people who play the game as much as you want, but 35d /play and 73k RP is kinda crap.

of course peoples' daoc accomplishments mean nothing IRL. we play this game in an online daoc world where REAL LIFE accomplishments mean nothing.

if you're crap at daoc like karam, i'd infer that you're more likely to do crap IRL ^^

 

[exe]

Re: yeah

Originally posted by inuyasha
However i said it was quite easy to understand, dont take long, and that "most" fights and such people claim skill for, is decided beforehand from the class combinations, and could have been equally well done by someone who had played the char for 1 week rather then one year.

NO>.< Cba to explain why, but it is so.

Originally posted by inuyasha
This is not case the total newbs dont have skill, but they dont have good teams (aka no bard or no resist or simply 5 mages and 3 nightshades and such, you see my point) Insert the same players in a team where you have LA setup (yes, you are perfecty examples for my points =D) and a good bard and you get alot of rps

Also NO.

 

[old.Odysseus]

Every single class in this game requires skills and brains to play properly.

Take a tank for example
- must be fast on the keys to use the right style
- must be awake to break from stick and go for supportchars
- must use his brains to decide when to go offensive and defensive
-must use his eyes and brains to pick the right target, maybe even doubleteam something
-etcetc

And a tank is a one-trick pony. He has nothing else than slam and hit. Now scale upwards for those classes that have a ton of nifty spells and stuff.

 

[inuyasha]

Originally posted by old.Odysseus
Every single class in this game requires skills and brains to play properly.

Take a tank for example
- must be fast on the keys to use the right style
- must be awake to break from stick and go for supportchars
- must use his brains to decide when to go offensive and defensive
-must use his eyes and brains to pick the right target, maybe even doubleteam something
-etcetc

And a tank is a one-trick pony. He has nothing else than slam and hit. Now scale upwards for those classes that have a ton of nifty spells and stuff.

Didnt i say perfectly well three times that i NEVER said that this game is NO skill. Buts its awfully easy, and once you ARE experienced, you manage more or less just as well as anybody if the class combination is right =)

 

[inuyasha]

feh

Originally posted by exe
NO>.< Cba to explain why, but it is so.

Also NO.

be arsed to

And remember, i do not include CC classes..

A total newb tank sucks in a perfect team as well
But any experienced tank (for rvr) does as well as a rr8 one in a team like the ones in LA (meaning you dont get messed or stunned to killed fast by much at all...alas the class combination alone is superior.

NO random team CAN beat a LA team becase of their class combination =)

ANY experienced team with the LA combination can take any random team =)

They get rps case of this, not neccesarly case of insane skills =)

 

[Karam_gruul]

theres no skill using a tank, and no skill using any class. knowing when to attack healers/casters/tanks isnt skill, thats just judgement. theres no PHYSICAL skill ffs, physical skill would be aiming at something... or having to use environment against your enemy.

there is no skill, nuff said, end of story

 

[old.Ryzar]

Originally posted by Fame


leet skills, that's all.

LOL !

 

[inuyasha]

nja

Originally posted by Karam_gruul
theres no skill using a tank, and no skill using any class. knowing when to attack healers/casters/tanks isnt skill, thats just judgement. theres no PHYSICAL skill ffs, physical skill would be aiming at something... or having to use environment against your enemy.

there is no skill, nuff said, end of story

"healer", "bard" and solo minstrels....
These ones ARE skill =)

More to mind here then to play CS or Q3 =)

 

[exe]

Originally posted by inuyasha


be arsed to

And remember, i do not include CC classes..

A total newb tank sucks in a perfect team as well
But any experienced tank (for rvr) does as well as a rr8 one in a team like the ones in LA (meaning you dont get messed or stunned to killed fast by much at all...alas the class combination alone is superior.

NO random team CAN beat a LA team becase of their class combination =)

ANY experienced team with the LA combination can take any random team =)

They get rps case of this, not neccesarly case of insane skills =)

Originally posted by inuyasha
Didnt i say perfectly well three times that i NEVER said that this game is NO skill. Buts its awfully easy, and once you ARE experienced, you manage more or less just as well as anybody if the class combination is right =)

I can only agree on what Odysseus said. Will just add that the EXPERIENCE is not a matter of a week or 2. And also higher RR=more RAs=more options to use in combat=more to think about in combat etc.

 

[inuyasha]

lol

Originally posted by exe

I can only agree on what Odysseus said. Will just add that the EXPERIENCE is not a matter of a week or 2. And also higher RR=more RAs=more options to use in combat=more to think about in combat etc.

Tank:

You learn well what to attack and with what (styles and targeting)
You learn the rest of the basics.
You know how to play a tank in a good group.

Knowing to use IP and First Aid when your low on health is hardly that much a matter of skill eh?
Most of the rest RAs is passive?

 

[old.Prof]

So DAoC requires no skill, only knowledge ? However according to Karam

the only known mmorpg with skill is UO

This is because

where its essential to memorise every key on your keyboard, and macro a spell to each one (if your a pvping mage). and know exactly which spells cancel others out, and even (if your uber like me) knowing what spells are JUST by the words said by the player. eg In Nox = poison.

AFAIK memorizing all kind of things have NOTHING to do with skill, but ALSO with knowledge. By your account UO is about as skillfull as memorising a dictionary.

While generally MMORPGs don't require that much skill, the skill-aspect in games like CS shouldn't be overestimated either. Generally, wether it is DAoC or CS or Quake III, the guy who plays most wins. It's that simple.

Oh and having a big, fast PC helps a lot too, as do shady things like "tweaked" configs or (even worse) downright cheating.

 

[Aloca]

no matter what class you are, all it involves is clicking a target, pressing a button and waiting for the out come. some idiots (novamir) might argue that you have to be in the right position if your say an infil and wanna use perf/backstab, but why is that skillfull? thats just.... standing infront/behind someone.

Well its damn hard to stand on the exact right position. and even harder with lagg/ speed 5. then u need LOADS of skill and little luck to get in a PA.

I know I should hit that bard, I press /stick, F6, style, style, style. It's not hard to press those buttons (Though it's not skillless!). Knowledge > Skill in DAoC

Dont know about u but it isnt just doing style style style. as a assassin class u mainly need to get in a evade chain and for that u need skill specialy when fighting a 2wpn user, then it is almost impossible if u are not good in changeing next style and react on the evade msg in the middle of the other fighting spam.



Tho i can agree that being a mage from my pov isnt that skillfull other than picking target. after that it is just press same spell until dead and pick new target. but as i only have a lvl 42 mage with 30+k rp i can be wrong

 

[Karam_gruul]

im not reading any posts since my last one, so to anyone that may be disagreeing, your wrong

 

[AbPoon]

Stop using my material Karam you limp wristed chimp.

 

[AquArius]

Originally posted by Aloca


Dont know about u but it isnt just doing style style style. as a assassin class u mainly need to get in a evade chain and for that u need skill specialy when fighting a 2wpn user, then it is almost impossible if u are not good in changeing next style and react on the evade msg in the middle of the other fighting spam.

How can u react to ur or others styles by watching the text commentaries ?
There is so much shit goin on, depending on how u set up ur window.
Try watching what ur char does. For eg. If u start a chain, u need to watch carefully, because the graphic is essentially the same, even if u don't hit it. Then if ur not paying attn, u let off the remaining parts of the chain, and they will all miss, but still cost u the endurance. Using my char, I get particular colours in the wep swing of the graphic, and also a sound file if the first element of the chain hits. This is vitally important when endurance is at a premium. This is a skill in itself, as towards the end of an engrossing battle, the ones who have conserved endurance or an RA or two will prevail. DAoC is certainly not the most skillful of games i have played, but it is not the least either. I made a post earlier, referring to having played with good and notso good players. I believe i could pick a grp of my choice, which would beat any other random grp of players with equal RA's etc, hands down every time. That is because some players are better than others. This means skill is involved. The amount of skill is argumentative = u won't ever agree and solve the puzzle = futile.
This is a game that wins hands down for it's gentle learning curve & playablility. That is what attracts players. Attracting players = games sold = lots of cash for game designers. I think this is what Mythic set their stall out for, and by my reckonning they r laughing all the way to the bank. Ask Mythic if they think they succeeded in what they set out to do

 

[stabba4]

uh healer only requires target-insta mezz, remember root/stun/mezz timers, cure mezz either by reading grp chat or by effects, watch grp hp, heal and trying to find a good cast spot if possible and ofc watch for extra inc and pay attention to sm:s/healers/rm:s incase of extra CC. i dont think any class has that much on their to-do list, and still i find it alot harder microing a WC3 battle than playing a healer, and seriously making these decisions isnt something you need to be a rocket scientist to figure out. so what it comes down to is doing it fast, but then again except for the instas, it doesnt matter much if you loose a split second or not cause everyones speed is capped by casting times and with the lag and the useless spell aborting system you cant abort whatever you are doing in reaction to a new condition, cause completing it is most likely just as fast. Ofc not everyone wanna spend time on learning everything in the game, cause they dont give a flying fuck about it, both in PvE and RvR you see people doing all kinds of really dumb stuff. That is not because the game is hard to learn, or hard to play its because they dont give a fuck. If you asked yourselfs could any moron do this just aswell given 20h of focused training on it you whould come up with a yes for every single class in this game. now ask yourself (if you consider yourself at least better than average) if the same answer whould come up in WC3/CS/Q3/SC/Chess.

 

[inuyasha]

more or less agree

Originally posted by stabba4
uh healer only requires target-insta mezz, remember root/stun/mezz timers, cure mezz either by reading grp chat or by effects, watch grp hp, heal and trying to find a good cast spot if possible and ofc watch for extra inc and pay attention to sm:s/healers/rm:s incase of extra CC. i dont think any class has that much on their to-do list, and still i find it alot harder microing a WC3 battle than playing a healer, and seriously making these decisions isnt something you need to be a rocket scientist to figure out. so what it comes down to is doing it fast, but then again except for the instas, it doesnt matter much if you loose a split second or not cause everyones speed is capped by casting times and with the lag and the useless spell aborting system you cant abort whatever you are doing in reaction to a new condition, cause completing it is most likely just as fast. Ofc not everyone wanna spend time on learning everything in the game, cause they dont give a flying fuck about it, both in PvE and RvR you see people doing all kinds of really dumb stuff. That is not because the game is hard to learn, or hard to play its because they dont give a fuck. If you asked yourselfs could any moron do this just aswell given 20h of focused training on it you whould come up with a yes for every single class in this game. now ask yourself (if you consider yourself at least better than average) if the same answer whould come up in WC3/CS/Q3/SC/Chess.

20 hours of intence training would give you:
skills for most classes in daoc
still make you a lousy bard
make you DEAD against a good player in CS/Q3/SC/WC3(unless you have luck, lots of easy win strats here).
Chess however, is NOT decided on who plays most
12 year old pwn old masters, nuff said This 12 year old would easy pwn you after 20 hours of training, while i wouldnt beat my cat after a month

 

[exe]

Re: lol

Originally posted by inuyasha
Most of the rest RAs is passive?

High RR=u have something more than just IP and FA E.g. AP, Trip etc.

 

[stabba4]

if you dont take the extremes of chess it is a very experience based game, ofc someone can just come and pwn you in it but thats more of an exception than a rule. The same whould apply to any game without physical boundrys, infact you can turn it around and say that any purely physical game can be the same way. this is what we call talent, and theres always people who learn alot slower and understand some things alot slower than others, this is what we call albs

 

[inuyasha]

sorta

Originally posted by stabba4
if you dont take the extremes of chess it is a very experience based game, ofc someone can just come and pwn you in it but thats more of an exception than a rule. The same whould apply to any game without physical boundrys, infact you can turn it around and say that any purely physical game can be the same way. this is what we call talent, and theres always people who learn alot slower and understand some things alot slower than others, this is what we call albs

Not really sure why, but i belive the ones naturally chosen to rock in warcraft is even rarer then the chess ones
Absolutely most games is based on such, but i would say chess for people without natural gifts is more knowledge then skill anyways

Skill do apply alot in fps's and strat games though =)

I think we have to determin that skill have something to do with things to do/how hard it is to do them and what time you have to do it. Some formula here i will leave to others to calculate