Politics Should it be a civil right to bear arms?

[throdgrain]

Nothing that's been said has changed my opinion. As far as saying that if you have a gun criminals will have guns too, shit its the other way around, plenty of them already have guns!

All I want is the right to defend myself. That doesnt mean I have to go to karate classes for 10 years in order to do it.

 

[GimmlyThe3rd]

I know it's a difference country etc but when I move out of my apartment into a house with no security guards or shoddy security. I will be getting a license and a glock, I know plenty of foreigners that have been burgled and killed (most often) and others assassinated. And ofc the thief's or the hit men are never alone, armed and usually on Ice in the middle of the night.

Just last week a thai girl I knew (not well, just seen and chit chatted) in my old city was killed. She was in the sameish business and doing quite well, and started building condos. She was assassinated on the main road and the full CCTV unblurred was aired all over TV. Shot once in the leg as she walked out the office in the day and then double tapped to the face in broad daylight. Can be for as little as £400, makes you think about getting a gun ASAP and making sure you can use it quickly if you have to.

 

[ford prefect]

You say guns arnt needed, wait till some looney is invading your house and you have no way of defending yourself. You may not agree then.

And yes, you can say "oh it will never happen" but the truth is it does happen, and maybe it is unlikely, but unlikely isnt never is it. Your theory appears to be that because it's not likely then the people who do get murdered, raped, tortured, whatever, they can pay the price for your "safe society".

What on earth makes you think those crimes won't increase with the availability of guns?

 

[dysfunction]

Nothing that's been said has changed my opinion. As far as saying that if you have a gun criminals will have guns too, shit its the other way around, plenty of them already have guns!

If you make them legal even more criminals will have guns.
Allowing everyone to own a gun just makes it worse...

 

[ford prefect]

Nothing that's been said has changed my opinion. As far as saying that if you have a gun criminals will have guns too, shit its the other way around, plenty of them already have guns!

All I want is the right to defend myself. That doesnt mean I have to go to karate classes for 10 years in order to do it.

Actually, very few "criminals" have guns, see my previous post.

A national survey undertaken in 2007 showed that there were 51 gun related deaths in mainland UK that year. That is with a population of 60 million, the US with a population of 250 million, as I mentioned earlier averages 31,000 gun related deaths per year. It is simple math - people+guns=people using them.

 

[throdgrain]

There's plenty more than that now I think you will find.

And anyway thats niether here nor there, the avarage person cant defend themselves against two or three robbers anyway unarmed.

And to suggest that suddenly then robbers would arm themselves more and do armed invasions of people houses is unproven - breaking and entering is fuck all whether you get caught or not, however murder or attempted murder is another thing alltogether.

 

[throdgrain]

I know it's a difference country etc but when I move out of my apartment into a house with no security guards or shoddy security. I will be getting a license and a glock, I know plenty of foreigners that have been burgled and killed (most often) and others assassinated. And ofc the thief's or the hit men are never alone, armed and usually on Ice in the middle of the night.

Just last week a thai girl I knew (not well, just seen and chit chatted) in my old city was killed. She was in the sameish business and doing quite well, and started building condos. She was assassinated on the main road and the full CCTV unblurred was aired all over TV. Shot once in the leg as she walked out the office in the day and then double tapped to the face in broad daylight. Can be for as little as £400, makes you think about getting a gun ASAP and making sure you can use it quickly if you have to.

I bet it does!

 

[dysfunction]

And to suggest that suddenly then robbers would arm themselves more and do armed invasions of people houses is unproven -

No that never happens!

https://forums.freddyshouse.com/fro...ould-civil-right-bear-arms-2.html#post3787594

 

[ford prefect]

There's plenty more than that now I think you will find.

And anyway thats niether here nor there, the avarage person cant defend themselves against two or three robbers anyway unarmed.

And to suggest that suddenly then robbers would arm themselves more and do armed invasions of people houses is unproven - breaking and entering is fuck all whether you get caught or not, however murder or attempted murder is another thing alltogether.

Unproven? What do you think most of those US deaths are from? Cleaning a loaded gun?

Firstly, I think you will find a large percentage of the population simply won't want a fire-arm in the house. Secondly, if you are going to allow the public access to fire-arms, it is obvious as to which elements of society are going to most attracted to the availablity of guns.

Those figures incidentally aren't much higher. Between 2005 and 2009 gun realted deaths in the UK fell by 11%, rising slightly for obvious reasons last year. Gun realted injuries average just over a 1100 or so a year in the UK, which should tell you they are also bloody dangerous things to have around. What we need is an outright ban unless you have a bloody good work related reason for having one - farmer / vet ect.

Actual gun-crime is very rare in the UK. It almost always makes the news simply because of that fact.

 

[throdgrain]

So immediately you grab at the USA, despite the fact there are dozens of other countries you could choose from. Why dont you use Canada as an example instead?

Or is all your info from the BBC

 

[throdgrain]

No that never happens!

https://forums.freddyshouse.com/fro...ould-civil-right-bear-arms-2.html#post3787594

The response was concerning Great Britain, as you well know you saffa spaz

 

[ford prefect]

So immediately you grab at the USA, despite the fact there are dozens of other countries you could choose from. Why dont you use Canada as an example instead?

Or is all your info from the BBC

Really? Just under a third of murders in canada are as a result of firearms!

I cannot remember the last time I dealth with a gun realted death, in fact the only gun related crime I can remember attending was in 2008, and it was a rape.

Happily, I doubt this will ever be a serious debate in the UK.

 

[Ormorof]

simply put there are a great many people who should under no circumstances be allowed near a gun

sure licence them out but make it strict as hell to avoid nutjobs (throd dont you already own guns? so what you complaining about? )

 

[throdgrain]

simply put there are a great many people who should under no circumstances be allowed near a gun

sure licence them out but make it strict as hell to avoid nutjobs (throd dont you already own guns? so what you complaining about? )

Yes I do, however I'm not allowed a handgun, and if I was to shoot an intruder I would be breaking the law, chances are I'd do time, and I'd certainly loose my licence.

 

[ford prefect]

Yes I do, however I'm not allowed a handgun, and if I was to shoot an intruder I would be breaking the law, chances are I'd do time, and I'd certainly loose my licence.

And rightly so. As it stands under English & Welsh law, you are entitled to protect your home and you are free from prosecution as long as you use reasonable force, which is defined as acting "honestly and instinctively" in the heat of the moment. As long as those criteria are followed, you are protected from "Fine Judgement" over your actions. Those guidelines also protect you if you pick up a weapon to protect yourself under those criteria.

Given the very incredibly small risk of someone actually entering your home with the specific intention of doing you harm, that seems like more than reasonable legislation to me. It gives you protection, and stops idiots leaving windows open with hydriolic nail gun booby trabs in the hope of snaring some idiotic teenager.

 

[Gumbo]

A judge on a case where a man attacked a knife wielding intruder with a cricket bat and got jail time for it 'If persons were permitted to take the law into their own hands and inflict their own instant and violent punishment on an apprehended offender rather than letting the criminal justice system take its course, then the rule of law and our system of criminal justice, which are hallmarks of a civilised society, would collapse.'

That sounds like you're talking about Munir Hussain. The fact he went and got his brother, found up the cricket bat, chased the burglar down outside and beat him, might have had something to do with the initial 30 month sentence. Of course you neglect to mention that this was later reduced on appeal to 1 year, suspended for 2 years, so no jail time after the appeal.

That is a somewhat different set of circumstances to whacking the crack addict over the head as he's creeping up your stairs at 2am. A set of circumstances which now, after recent changes, and guidelines means you will not serve any jail time.

 

[Gumbo]

Well a friend of mine in South Africa had a gun and they were being broken into. They fired a shot and then the next minute a hail of bullets came flying through the house.

They then ran out the back door and fled via the neighbours gardens.

So much for having a gun!

He clearly needs to do more target practice.

 

[Tom]

There are excessive force laws. If you walked up to a burglar with no weapon who was not threatening you or your family and caved in his skull you would not just get a pat on the back.

So you think it's ok to cave in the skull of someone who isn't threatening you or your family. Ok.


And people want more guns in this country?

 

[dysfunction]

He clearly needs to do more target practice.

They didn't want to kill anyone. They just wanted to frighten them off.
Obviously it didn't work! And seeing as there was around 3 or 4 people outside with guns he didn't fancy hanging around!

 

[chipper]

this is nuts cant believe its actually being debated theres a saying i think a rapper came out with it.

guns dont kill people, people do or summat along those lines and its true

do you honestly think everyone is going to own a gun and just use it for self defence?

neighbours squabble one comes out with a gun and blows the others head off compared to if they didnt have one probably just a scuffle (real life example saw it on a documentary)

you have a gun in your home and you get burgled you both go for the gun the burglar gets it and you end up on life support or in a box compared to mebbe a quick smack in face while robber legs it

kid gets hold of it blows his head off or gets bullied at school and decides to kill said fuckwit bullying them.

guns fuck up society, everyone is a fucking hardcase with a gun in there hand, not so tough tho when the only weapon they have is there fists (in most cases yes some people are as tough as nails).

i hate guns they should remain strictly for the use of the military and the police the public just shoud not have access to them. for the simple fact they dont respect the power in there possesion

owning a gun does not solve the problem of a failing society its a quick fix not a cure, deal with the underlying problems of why people commit gun crime and you take away the need to own a firearm to protect yourself.
its idealistic and i know thats not the way it is but it should be and as a society that should be the goal we work towards

 

[ford prefect]

You know, probably 99% of the murder cases I come across involve someone taking to many drugs or drinking too much. They almost always occur when someone has the least self control and there is hardly ever any evidence of planning.

An argument starts and gets pretty intense. A punch is thrown, someone is shoved, it doesn't take much. We are not talking about criminal masterminds here. Often we are talking about kids here in their late teens or early twenties or adults who are simply in a bad place. Honestly, most are no different to any of us. Now add a handy gun into that mix, and watch those figures sky rocket.

Equally the vast majority of burglaries I have seen are performed by young men in their late teens or early twenties who are simply out to steal something to fee their drug habit. Most of them, in all honesty are in such a poor physical condition, having barely eaten, often for months at a time, that they pose little physical danger too anyone.

To be honest I think some people around here watch a little too much TV.

 

[throdgrain]

guns fuck up society, everyone is a fucking hardcase with a gun in there hand, not so tough tho when the only weapon they have is there fists (in most cases yes some people are as tough as nails).

This is exactly the point!! By your statement you limit the right of self defence to the pysically fit. Insanity. Think what you're saying. Like most people in this country you're hiding your head in the sand and hoping it wont happen to you. It probably wont as well, so everything will be fine wont it?

Probably ....

 

[soze]

So you think it's ok to cave in the skull of someone who isn't threatening you or your family. Ok.


And people want more guns in this country?

No not at all, my point was if people wanted gun to defend the home then the laws regarding excessive force would need to change. I do not want guns in the house and have never said I would kill someone breaking into my house.

 

[chipper]

This is exactly the point!! By your statement you limit the right of self defence to the pysically fit. Insanity. Think what you're saying. Like most people in this country you're hiding your head in the sand and hoping it wont happen to you. It probably wont as well, so everything will be fine wont it?

Probably ....

why am i hiding my head in the sand?

just cos i dont want to own a gun? id rather spend the money it costs to get a gun on security alarm good locks etc

majority of burglaries are opportunistic not planned dont give em a reason to break in and they probably wont the days of leaving your doors and windows open are gone accept it.

if you own a weapon be prepared to face the consequences of it been used against you.

 

[megadave]

I'm scared of people coming in to my home and attacking me with a knife, so let's give them the option of using a gun instead!

 

[throdgrain]

Give them the option of using a gun? How does that work then? Illegal guns are already available, legal guns would be available licensed in the same way they are now.

You're hiding your head in the sand if you think that "it will never happen to me, I'll buy big locks." But, a big but, that is your right, I dont have a problem with it.

Me though, I would like the option to own a hand gun again for targets etc, and know that if my life was threatened I could use it to defend myself.

I'll leave you to hide behind your big locks. You can call the police too.

I do hope they come in time

 

[ford prefect]

Do you honestly think that criminals all know someone who can set them up with a gun for the right price?

The reason we hear so much about knife crime is because illegal guns are expensive and difficult to come by. Even with a gun licensing scheme you can't predict who is ok or who isn't ok to have a gun. Look at the roads, any idiot can get a driving license, what makes you think a gun licence is any better?

 

[Killswitch]

I don't go for the "criminals have guns so it should be legal for me to have one" argument. Currently guns are illegal and relatively hard to come by. Three types of people have guns; police, soldiers, serious criminals.

No opportunist thief is going to break into your house brandishing a shotgun and take your TV...the risks are too high and a knife is just as effective.

The simple fact is that unless you are involved in drugs (or gangs, but it's probably not worth making a distinction) or you are a police officer, the chance of you being shot is vanishingly small. I worry about getting knifed, I have never even considered the possibility I might get shot.

Now when gun ownership is legal, there is no downside to owning a firearm so everyone including petty criminals and crazy people can own a gun. The worry that someone you want to mug might be carrying might be a deterrent or it might be an incentive to shoot early.

Someone who mentioned the recent shooting in Norway is clearly confused. If someone on the island was carrying a gun in a situation where a calm killer in a police uniform was shooting running, screaming, hiding kids you think the situation would have been better? It's possible, but I don't think it's likely. I think the same when people tell me that if the kids/teachers in US schools could carry concealed weapons, mass school shootings would be less frequent and less bloody when they did occur. Again that seems unlikely to me.

 

[throdgrain]

Do you honestly think that criminals all know someone who can set them up with a gun for the right price?

The reason we hear so much about knife crime is because illegal guns are expensive and difficult to come by. Even with a gun licensing scheme you can't predict who is ok or who isn't ok to have a gun. Look at the roads, any idiot can get a driving license, what makes you think a gun licence is any better?

What's a driving licence got to do with it? A firearms licence is arguably harder to get than a driving licence.

 

[Killswitch]

Give them the option of using a gun? How does that work then? Illegal guns are already available, legal guns would be available licensed in the same way they are now.

You're hiding your head in the sand if you think that "it will never happen to me, I'll buy big locks." But, a big but, that is your right, I dont have a problem with it.

Me though, I would like the option to own a hand gun again for targets etc, and know that if my life was threatened I could use it to defend myself.

I'll leave you to hide behind your big locks. You can call the police too.

I do hope they come in time

People will always steal stuff. Always. People are willing to risk injury and death for the chance at having it away with your flatscreen TV and your wife's jewellery. This. Will. Never. Change.

In a situation where homeowners can legally keep handguns in their house (and actually reachable, not in some double-locked safe you'll never get open in time) EVERY opportunistic criminal, every mugger, every rapist, every career burglar will go armed as heavily as possible. Illegal, unregistered guns will be EASIER to come by as there will be more supply available.

So...you practice shooting targets 4 hours a day, you reach supreme accuracy with a gun, you are a Beretta-toting God amongst men. Three men, all armed with handguns and equally practised but with far less morals and much less to lose break into your home. You can take them out before they get a shot off? Three taps centre-mass? No bullets through a door into your family's vital organs? No retributive killing of your family and burning down of your house by the gangmates of the man/men you killed?

Anyone who believes they can defend themselves like some kind of Tony Martin on steroids (who shot a couple of teenagers in the ass as they were running away let us not forget) is the wrong side of delusional.