Should Armsman get Loved?

[cHodAX]

Originally posted by Xeanor


spear hero/lw hero/champ hit for only 400 or so on my sorc, and they hit at the same speed

Back to the buffed issue there, heavily buffed spearo hits for a lot more than 400dmg. Think it was Locomo (might be wrong) that used to hit me for 600+dmg a swing and that was before spellcrafting, ran in good groups and had strong buffs. I bet with lower buffs or none at all he would be hitting for 400 on average. Oh and 400 on your Sorc is pretty decent considering your buffs, armour and clerics af buff.

 

[Tasans]

Originally posted by old.cHodAX
So let me get this straight, we don't change the class because by fixing polearm for the 'average' player would made buffbotted armsman hit harder? Bit silly when you consider 90% of pole armsman don't have access to buffbots. Also consider this, a savage will often outhit a pole armsman and yet he is a light tank. If an armsman is forced to double spec all the way then he should be rewarded with the damage to go along with it, now all but 2 pole armsman in this thread are unhappy about variance so it would suggest there is a problem with armsman damage if they aren't buffed to the nuts.

An arms once hit me for 760 and 5 secs later for 800 something. I didnt go nuts about it because i assumed a lucky crit was involved. Also you shouldnt compare unbuffed or in pickup groups arms with a buffed to high heaven savage.
Btw if you think the variance is too high then you should make tests, logs etc and take the matter to the arms tl. I dont think you will get your damage increased anyway, since mythic stated that no class will receive a direct damage boost, and if they did there would be a major uproar in the us servers.

 

[cHodAX]

Originally posted by Tasans
An arms once hit me for 760 and 5 secs later for 800 something. I didnt go nuts about it because i assumed a lucky crit was involved. Also you shouldnt compare unbuffed or in pickup groups arms with a buffed to high heaven savage.
Btw if you think the variance is too high then you should make tests, logs etc and take the matter to the arms tl. I dont think you will get your damage increased anyway, since mythic stated that no class will receive a direct damage boost, and if they did there would be a major uproar in the us servers.

The comparison I made was a buffbotted savage hitting for 800 in one round and then 600 on the next round against a rr8 merc. Yes it is hard to get exact figures with regards to buffed/unbuffed against buffed/unbuffed enemies. However the main point remains that because of the double speccing that pole armsman are forced into they have to sacrifice either damage for defense or damage for slam and even the variance on high double spec is too high. You have to admit that hitting for 250dmg one round and then 650dmg the next whilst using styles is a bit nuts. Sure having 50 enh buffs drops the variance alot but how many people have access to 50 enh buffbots? 10% of the population?

 

[Xeanor]

Armsman group RA is like BoF btw, damn nasty.

Armsmen are fine, period.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[cHodAX]

Originally posted by Xeanor
Armsman group RA is like BoF btw, damn nasty.

Armsmen are fine, period.

But that's just my opinion.

Fix variance on pole or remove double speccing and I would agree 100%, as it is right now only a heavily buffed pole armsman is doing the damage you would expect for having specced in 2 lines for his weapon.

 

[cHodAX]

Btw you are spot on about Armsman group RA, lovely stuff. Shame my main class got the shittiest RA in the game, wish they would remove or rework seigebolt and give me a useful group RA. No one needs a rr5 Theurgist these days it seems and RvR pickup groups don't do it for me anymore.

 

[Tasans]

Originally posted by old.cHodAX
The comparison I made was a buffbotted savage hitting for 800 in one round and then 600 on the next round against a rr8 merc. Yes it is hard to get exact figures with regards to buffed/unbuffed against buffed/unbuffed enemies. However the main point remains that because of the double speccing that pole armsman are forced into they have to sacrifice either damage for defense or damage for slam and even the variance on high double spec is too high. You have to admit that hitting for 250dmg one round and then 650dmg the next whilst using styles is a bit nuts. Sure having 50 enh buffs drops the variance alot but how many people have access to 50 enh buffbots? 10% of the population?

If you are referring to "gank group" savages then learn that, at least in excal, all those groups run with 50+1+ aug and mota3-4 shamans, which means that their buffs are the very top. If an arms is in these kind of groups then he will be able to compete. Which brings to the arguement of pick up groups vs gank groups and casual gamers vs hardcore gamers, which is a huge one and out of topic for this thread. I believe mythic introduced the +weapons stat to lessen the double speccing.

 

[cHodAX]

Originally posted by Tasans
I believe mythic introduced the +weapons stat to lessen the double speccing.

Very interesting point, be interested to see how that pans out.

 

[cHodAX]

Originally posted by Tasans
If you are referring to "gank group" savages then learn that, at least in excal, all those groups run with 50+1+ aug and mota3-4 shamans, which means that their buffs are the very top. If an arms is in these kind of groups then he will be able to compete. Which brings to the arguement of pick up groups vs gank groups and casual gamers vs hardcore gamers, which is a huge one and out of topic for this thread.

Thing is without those buffs the polearm has huge variance whilst the savage will hit for less unbuffed he will still hit with low variance. Hardly seems fair that you have to spec 2 lines to max or almost max and even then still get utterly stupid amounts of variance.

 

[Coim-]

Originally posted by Tasans
Btw if you think the variance is too high then you should make tests, logs etc and take the matter to the arms tl. I dont think you will get your damage increased anyway, since mythic stated that no class will receive a direct damage boost, and if they did there would be a major uproar in the us servers.

I hate to ruin your post but...
Taken from the armsman TL report...
"There is little to no benefit to double specializing two-hand or Polearm. We have to spec the damage type to gain the minimum damage cap, and the weapon type to get the styles and maximum damage cap. The problem is that there is little consistency to doing this - as with my level 50 Polearm, for example, and level 50 slash, I can hit once for 325 damage, then again for 500 damage, all without critical strikes. Over time, however, this produces much less damage than our single specialization counterparts who strike maximum damage consistently with only one line in which to specialize, due also in part to how slow an armsman's weapons are. And in RvR combat, *speed* is everything. The double specialization only further assures a handicap where none is present in any other class. "

So it has already been pointed out and is a serious issue. The consistency in damage output is very unreliable.

 

[Tasans]

Originally posted by Coim-
I hate to ruin your post but...
Taken from the armsman TL report...
"There is little to no benefit to double specializing two-hand or Polearm. We have to spec the damage type to gain the minimum damage cap, and the weapon type to get the styles and maximum damage cap. The problem is that there is little consistency to doing this - as with my level 50 Polearm, for example, and level 50 slash, I can hit once for 325 damage, then again for 500 damage, all without critical strikes. Over time, however, this produces much less damage than our single specialization counterparts who strike maximum damage consistently with only one line in which to specialize, due also in part to how slow an armsman's weapons are. And in RvR combat, *speed* is everything. The double specialization only further assures a handicap where none is present in any other class. "

So it has already been pointed out and is a serious issue. The consistency in damage output is very unreliable.

How did that ruin my post? Did i say that variance is fine? All i said is that your damage is not going to be DIRECTLY increased.

 

[cHodAX]

Glad you posted that Coim, people have been logging damage output over 100's of hits on the same target. They show that the variance is insane for a class that has to double spec. Now they have a choice, either do the simple fix and lower overall variance on polearm or do it the hard way and remove the need for double speccing althogether. The former would be the popular choice although many pole armsman would like the option to have decent parry and slam.

 

[cHodAX]

Originally posted by Tasans
How did that ruin my post? Did i say that variance is fine? All i said is that your damage is not going to be DIRECTLY increased.

It isn't a case of directly increasing damage, it is about either lower variance for more consitent damge which every other tank class in the game gets OR removing double speccing so the variance is the same but the class gets more defense via extra parry or the abilty to spec slam.

 

[Coim-]

Originally posted by Tasans
How did that ruin my post? Did i say that variance is fine? All i said is that your damage is not going to be DIRECTLY increased.

Originally posted by Tasans
An arms once hit me for 760 and 5 secs later for 800 something. I didnt go nuts about it because i assumed a lucky crit was involved. Also you shouldnt compare unbuffed or in pickup groups arms with a buffed to high heaven savage.
Btw if you think the variance is too high then you should make tests, logs etc and take the matter to the arms tl. I dont think you will get your damage increased anyway, since mythic stated that no class will receive a direct damage boost, and if they did there would be a major uproar in the us servers.

 

[Coim-]

Originally posted by Tasans
I dont think you will get your damage increased anyway, since mythic stated that no class will receive a direct damage boost, and if they did there would be a major uproar in the us servers.

Oh and I wouldn't listen to them. Just look at the whole chanter/zerker thing. They stated that they wouldn't nerf chanter's damage because the class has been how it is for 2 years. Now, zerkers had been the same for nearly as long, yet they didn't hesitate to nerf them.

 

[old.mattshanes]

The BEST way an armsman would get full damage is 50/50/28 thrust pole arm and base qui..... variance will be there still but will be very rare, although like chodax said earlier buffs would eliminate the variance a lot, though do not see why armsman if they spec in pole should have access to full damage from it but 1h be base on the weapon spec.That would be the best way to fix them really.

 

[Graknak]

what if they'd made pole the base dmg and weapon spec the cap dmg, wouldn't that work? or would 50/50/28 still be the same then?

 

[Tasans]

Originally posted by Coim-
Oh and I wouldn't listen to them. Just look at the whole chanter/zerker thing. They stated that they wouldn't nerf chanter's damage because the class has been how it is for 2 years. Now, zerkers had been the same for nearly as long, yet they didn't hesitate to nerf them.

The TL coord said that no class will receive a damage boost, but they will work around in making that class more desirable if its underperfoming. Thats what he used against the last berserk tl reports. And ended in a huge flame war in the vikings boards, with the valewalker tl saying smartass comments then banning everyone who argued with him. And the berserker tl getting fired. Midgard is the most underpopulated realm in the us with 7 servers being on /level 30. Their community is VERY tensed. If the TL coord suddenly backtracks his comments and starts doing things he said he wouldnt, you understand what the implications with the remaining mid players would be.

And about the variance arguement, i didnt say that it was fine, i said that if its indeed this big a proper case should be made by the tl with logs to prove it, where you pointed me that the tl already knows about it, and hes working on it. Tbh i think that a 100 spec line should have consistent damage.

 

[Coim-]

Originally posted by Tasans
The TL coord said that no class will receive a damage boost, but they will work around in making that class more desirable if its underperfoming. Thats what he used against the last berserk tl reports. And ended in a huge flame war in the vikings boards, with the valewalker tl saying smartass comments then banning everyone who argued with him. And the berserker tl getting fired. Midgard is the most underpopulated realm in the us with 7 servers being on /level 30. Their community is VERY tensed. If the TL coord suddenly backtracks his comments and starts doing things he said he wouldnt, you understand what the implications with the remaining mid players would be.

And about the variance arguement, i didnt say that it was fine, i said that if its indeed this big a proper case should be made by the tl with logs to prove it, where you pointed me that the tl already knows about it, and hes working on it. Tbh i think that a 100 spec line should have consistent damage.

Aye, I almost found myself feeling sorry for the zerker tl...

 

[mabs0r]

all they need to do is make 2h weaps and poles/spearo weaps auto negate blade turn like some CS styles do
(not the hunter spears due to stealth)
but standing in a field, without a buffbot, getting bladeturned and waiting for a base speed 5.8 weap to swing again is more of a prob imho

and yes you can kill casters in 2 *big* hits rather than lots of small ones, but with that kind if swing interval your healer would have to be braindead or engaged to prevent you being healed.

 

[cHodAX]

Originally posted by old.mattshanes
The BEST way an armsman would get full damage is 50/50/28 thrust pole arm and base qui..... variance will be there still but will be very rare, although like chodax said earlier buffs would eliminate the variance a lot, though do not see why armsman if they spec in pole should have access to full damage from it but 1h be base on the weapon spec.That would be the best way to fix them really.

Matt, so we have to max double spec and lower parry alot hence defense, then also not have access to slam just to be on a par with other realm's heavy tanks? Please, that is so ill thought out. If the damage of 50/50/28 was worth it then every pole armsman out there would spec it, now put 50 enh moa3 buffs on him and of course he will hit for 600 consistent every 5 secs, pretty bloody obvious. Now put him in an average group with one cleric and mid 30's enh spec, b00m 300-650dmg per swing.

 

[Xeanor]

I agree, but wouldn't it be a bit overpowered if armsman would do really the same damage as a hero/warrior AND have that very good GROUP RA?

Alb already has LOADS of group RAs, if all classes would do same damage then Alb would be totally uber, no?

 

[Repent Reloaded]

Originally posted by Gladiatorrr
Hello...
For those who read this, I would just like to say that I am an armsman for those who dont already know me and I was wondering whether Armsman should get a bit of loving from mythic. ?

The reason being is this: I chose to be an armsman for the plain and simple reason... Armsman should be the best in mele combat! Also they had a ranged attack which was there Xbow! They also had the mighty polearm weapon which i thought was a good idea to have!

Now with the multiple changes with DAOC and alot of classes getting some 'loving', Armsman seem to be left behind and forgotten about! I mean, what do they have? what is special about an armsman?

In my opinon, why choose an armsman when you can be a paladin and get: severel chants, (even healing themselves and grp) resist chants, AF chant, damage chant etc... They can resurrect people who have died, and basically are IMO armsman with upgrades!!
Another little thing that annoyed me was that paladins got a 'pulling' chant/spell. One of the main reasons i chose an armsman in the 1st place was of there unique ranged Xbow to pull with. Paladins now got that too!!!

So what if we get a chance to use polearm, so what if purge is only 8pts, so what if we get a few more hit points than a pally and it is only a few! This still doesnt make us anywhere near as good as a paladin!

In my opinon, this really does need looking at, as alot of people wont choose a class which was once a formidible class and great to play.

Im sure there maybe alot of paladins who wont agree with me but deep down, you yourselves must realise that armsman havent got that killer instink that they once had.

Signed: Gladiator!

Armsmen get the chance to have polearms & plate, 2x spec.
Warriors get Chain, 2h and abit more base dmg & hp, imo armsmen arnt too bad off as far as main realm tanks go.

oh and mercs dont hit harder then armsmen, they hit faster thus do more dmg over time

 

[old.ivan]

Re: Re: Should Armsman get Loved?

Originally posted by Repent Reloaded
Armsmen get the chance to have polearms & plate, 2x spec.
Warriors get Chain, 2h and abit more base dmg & hp, imo armsmen arnt too bad off as far as main realm tanks go.

oh and mercs dont hit harder then armsmen, they hit faster thus do more dmg over time

Yes, but we are primarily talking utility here.
Paladin --> best defensive albion tank <if not the best main tank PvE>, can guard, has access to chants and good set of RA.
Mercenary --> best offensive tank when compared DoTwise, not DpH.
Armsman --> offensive spec : pole/damage line ....
defensive spec : sword+board

Now apart from 1-2 group RA, armsmen have little else to offer to the group when trying to compete for a spot in a group with their Fighter counterparts.

Could be viable to add this :
- Much desired : lower pole damage variance
- Perhaps new : Give a chance to land double-hits <polearm>

 

[Kagato.]

Re: Re: Should Armsman get Loved?

Originally posted by Repent Reloaded
Armsmen get the chance to have polearms & plate, 2x spec.

Theres no real benefit to polearms over two-handed, any damage differance is insignificant, the only advantage is in the rather nice defenders chain styles, and all styles are going to be looked at in a review anyway. The extra absorb on plate armour is probably the only reason we're able to function in our role at all now, but when so many of our enemies spec for crush weapons for this very reason its counter productive anyway. And this is a benefit that paladins also enjoy as well, so its not even a unique armsman ability.

 

[Flimgoblin]

7% absorb unaffected by number of attackers or buffs
versus
5% evade improved by buffs but made worse by number of attackers...

plate's not an advantage

having to spec 50 in a line just to do the same damage as the other two hand-users is a serious disadvantage and needs to go.

 

[Damon_D]

Originally posted by old.cHodAX
Fix variance on pole or remove double speccing and I would agree 100%, as it is right now only a heavily buffed pole armsman is doing the damage you would expect for having specced in 2 lines for his weapon.

Cool remove double speccing.. and then give midgaard the 2h dmg you get , thank you very much...

 

[mele]

OK

The dmg is this more or less.
All unbuffed.
Armsman 50/42/39 300-600 + 34 % absortion
Warrior 50 50 28 300-450 + 27 % absortion
Hero 50 42 39 300-375 +27 % absrotion (slash hurt scale dont fortget this)



The solution is give the armsmans the option of being like other tanks or....like they r now.
I mean, if ppl spec 50 Pole 42 Shield 39 parry let em do like Heros.....300-375.

If they spec 50 Pole 50 Dmg 28 parry let em be like they r......400-600 (cause in this case they got 50 in weap).

Im 100 % sure that they will choose the first opcion cause arsmans.......i know u love ur uber dmg with pole arm or 2-H.

The best thing is give em some very nice Weap styles, and give em maibe more HP than rest of tanks
like 20 % more than Heros or warrios.
but as i say after this Heros will say....WE NED SOME LOVE.. and the story will begin again,

 

[bracken_woodman]

Originally posted by Coim-
BUT a warrior can have 1h AND 2h. Slam, switch to 2h, and do great damage. Then if he needs to, switch back to 1h for the extra defense. An armsman cannot do this without lowering slash/thrust, which makes damage output unreliable to say the least...

Actually lowering slash/thrust to give a hybrid spec has surprisingly little impact on damage output. The problem with double speccing is that, even at a 50/50 spec, we have a greater variance than the equivalent single specced tank of other realms. The "upside" of this is that you can take a 50/50 spec, reduce the slash/thrust to 39 (to give you the 42 shield hybrid spec) and providing you take it to 50+ with items/rr you will notice very little difference in variance. It just seems to be a quirk in the game mechanics. The mistake some of our hybrid armsmen make is to lower the pole/2H instead of having it maxed - this reduces the maximum damage, which is the key to damage output on an armsman.

 

[mabs0r]

short answer, no, they need f*cking over, apparently


COMBAT STYLE CHANGES

Albion Polearm

- Disabler has been changed to medium to-hit and now chains off of Defender's Cross.

- Poleaxe has been changed to chain off of Defender's Rage and now has a high to-hit bonus.

- Defender's Revenge has been changed to medium fatigue and chain off of Phalanx. Additionally, the damage has been lowered.


. . .