Serious issues with last RR attempt

[Sichama]

Originally posted by iorlas
Sichama..
Why bother even doing alarm clock raid on eachother twice a week??Why not just agree to " drop em off" to each other at pre arranged times and places?? would be about as much fun as having to set alarm clocks to kill npc's.

Because it takes away the surpise factor when you log in, as i said before it will be much like DF, log in check if you have it then check what Relics you have

Hmmm im becoming my own enemy here......

 

[Sichama]

Originally posted by old.Ramas
In that case you haven't been paying attention.

I mean, *really* not paying attention.

Do you take regular 5 month breaks from DAOC or something?

This year the strength relics have changed hands at least 6 times that can think right now, the power relics 3 times.

And I'd say about 1 in 2 relic raids are successful. Certainly there have been at least 15 relic raids in the last 12 months.

Admittedly Hib does it less, but that is principly because few people outside Hib on this server care very much about power relics.

/shrug

Well i certainly don't play 24/7, can't do it but i think im pretty accurate in my numbers, but even if im wrong a bit there has not been a RR every single month, some times even two times a month and especially a change of relics every 2 months as you numbers suggest. The only time i remember as RR active was when Albs tried again and again to get the Relics from Mids untill they succeded.

 

[old.Ramas]

I personally led 3 myself at the beginning of '03. Plus Ardamel led at least 4. Plus herbal/lac has run at least 4. And there was the one the other morning. And Kirennia has done 2 I think.

This is before counting any power relic raids. Of which either there were several - or the power relics just mysteriously went mid->hib->mid->hib this year by some sort of npc teleport.

 

[Tualatin]

Originally posted by Sichama
eerrm i would like to mention that this thread is a bit bigger than one page and maybe you go read it from the start.

But to quote myself from my first post...


And i will mention in a fast way what this thread is about.

1) We all agree (yes me too) that alarm clock raids are lame. unethical etc etc, but prime time raids are very dificutl to pull off and they actually only benefit Albion at this moment (go to my first post for more details) so im debating if real alarm clock raids are more interesting and fun then theoretical prime time raids.
2) Nol has promised to show to me how Hibernia with the lowest population can perform a prime time raid with a good chance of succeding, and prove me wrong when i say that we can't
3) The Dodens trick was ingenious but in all honesty it is only the first time tricks like this are used that they succed.
4) Amadon doesn't like me but is keeping a very civilized way of arguing, and has presented some good arguments too.

Alot more interesting stuff from many posters but you really need to read it all.

Where's the fun in doing such early raids? atleast try in the afternoon orsmt... No defense at all, just the npc's.. and gosh, they are hard.. weren't they?

 

[Sichama]

mmmm?

Tualatin,
either i have missed something or you have, either way it's been almost 8 houres i started this Thread i can't follow it into the night and with all this new people commenting on something they obviously havent read.

Soooo.

In a more Academic way of discussion,

1) A prime time raid agreement only benefit the realm with the larger population?, please state your oppinion and also try and justify them too, it would be nice.

2) If alarm clock raids that are considered lame etc etc is not the answer, and prime time raids that happen too rarely also isnt the answer, is there an alternative way to do things? actually trying to answer this question with some though would be nice and very beneficiary.

3) If the answer in question number (2) is no would you prefer alarm clock raids that happen maybe two times a week and generaly succeed or prime time raids that happen maybe 6 times a year and succeed 3 of them. As this question is a case of personal preference no real though is nessesary to actually answer it.

Oh and i forgot, just to make things clear im a Nightshade that makes me a Hib for those that don't know.

 

[old.Nol]

1. Prime time agreement benefits all realms who would like to deal with raids in waking hours. It is as large a benefit to the defending realm as to the attacking realm, because it ensures that the defenders will have as many people online defending as possible (if they're prepared to come).

2. Relics are not ment to be pussy little raids, they are the epitomy of the game. They're the height of organisation, dedication and planning. Most importantly, they're fun.

It's like winning a gold medal, what use is it if all of your competitors were in bed, who did you beat?

 

[iorlas]

How can you compair DF to a RR??

 

[old.Ramas]

In answer to question 1, prime time raids favour the defender regardless of numbers in each realm. Every realm has enough prime time defenders to repel a raid they detect early enough. Nobody has enough numbers to repel a raid they fail to detect.

Question 2 your premise is flawed - prime time raids are not rare. And perhaps more to the point there is no reason alarm clock raids would be more common. Certainly it would be true that the casual player or less reknowned guilds would be involved in fewer relic raids and defences if they were all lame alarm clock efforts (because you can't participate in any way if you don't know in advance and log on).

In answer to question 3. Your premise is flawed - you are out on your estimate of raid numbers by factor of at least 3.

 

[Powahhh]

Originally posted by Sichama
Well i will keep this short and sweet.
But be warned this is not a Mids are lame, Albs are zerglings thread we have enough of those.

Facts i have seen as beeing the truth.

1) Prime time raids are fun, challenging, the need coordination, tactics and everyone has the oprtunity to live a grand scale battle.
2) Prime time raids only benefit the largest in population Realm as they will allways have the largest population online in prime time houres.
3) Prime time raids tend to happen very rearly thus causing the Relic situation to become stale, and especially after some failed RR's by the lesser in population realms, things never change, giving the realm with the larger population the benefit of choosing who has what relics.
4) Prime time RR's where the more populated realm takes part, because of obvious GoA's el cheepo machines, will cause Excalibur to crush, this enhances even more the stale situation of Relic ownership, adding the fact that the game becomes unplayable by those that don't give a shit about Relics in the first place.
5) DAoC as developed by Mythic is becoming a game that will be about large scale battles, sieges etc etc. i am afraid that DAoC that is hosted by GoA in Europe will become totaly unplayable for a large period of time when the new RvR expansion becomes live.

So by these observations, that i challenge anyone to prove wrong, prime time raids although fun, they are something that people should avoid because in reality they only benefit the largest in population realm and things just become stale and boring not to mention that servers crush making the game unplayable for all.

In the end better for them to change hands randomly 2 or 3 times a month, or even more, it just gives an oportunity for the small in population realms to taste what the other realms have, sure it will not be often and it will not last long but as litle as it might be it's better than nothing.

why mids try to justify the unjustify.......if mids never seen so many albs crying..i have never see so many mids talking BS and craps....
midgard=powergamer land.....the land of low life retards,kids that want to insta pwn anything,land of gosuwannabeplayers......
i really feel sad for you mids....such retardness


ps. about the original post: ' SUPER BS....another one *excuse* thread....too bad is like others.......no reall excuses just craps'

 

[Amadon]

Originally posted by Sichama
1) A prime time raid agreement only benefit the realm with the larger population?, please state your oppinion and also try and justify them too, it would be nice.

Arguably it benefits the smallest realm more since the smallest realm will be faced with the biggest challenge in pulling off a PT raid, and thus the sense of achievement when done successfully would be greater.
An agreement benefits everyone the same on the whole in my opinion, because it gives value to performing succesful raids. Without an agreement the relic status could very well settle into a state of apathy, and if you're apathetic then there's no real point in doing anything - which I feel is a bad thing.

2) If alarm clock raids that are considered lame etc etc is not the answer, and prime time raids that happen too rarely also isnt the answer, is there an alternative way to do things? actually trying to answer this question with some though would be nice and very beneficiary.

PT raids are not as rare as you seem to make out. Relics do change hands every 2 months or so, if they changed hands more regularly on average, then the value in performing a PT relic raid would diminish and we'd approach a state of apathy again. Note that what Hib is in at the moment is not a state of apathy, but of complacency.

3) If the answer in question number (2) is no would you prefer alarm clock raids that happen maybe two times a week and generaly succeed or prime time raids that happen maybe 6 times a year and succeed 3 of them. As this question is a case of personal preference no real though is nessesary to actually answer it.

The question isn't just about the relic bonus and who has it, it's about the value in obtaining the relics. Yes it would be nice if the relic bonus changed on a regular basis, however I don't feel that that would be worth negating the value of a relic raid. The value of a relic raid imo is not primarily the bonus you get from the relics, but the sense of achievement in organising a large body of people and co-ordinating their actions against seemingly impossible at times odds.

 

[riv]

Can I just ask this.

I play at weird hours sometimes, like i'll get up at 9pm, and perhaps log on at 12 midnight.

Even when I log on then, there are players on all night into the morning. Barring the server going down, there are players on every hour of every day. Some players are levelling, some players are in emain, some are in odin's gate, some are in hadrian's wall. Sometimes there are a lot of players, sometimes there are few.

Am I right in deducing that if I happen to be on at 3am, and enough of my realm mates also happen to be on, I am not *allowed* to conduct a Relic Raid because its not during primetime?

If an agreement was reached that Relic Raids were to only occur in primetime, who would make this agreement? who can speak for every guild and every player in either realm?

As has been asked, and quite rightly do; who would such an agreement benefit? certainly not the realm with the lower population at primetime. Another point would be that some people are not on at primetime, as that term is general and relative, not universal.

"In answer to question 1, prime time raids favour the defender regardless of numbers in each realm. Every realm has enough prime time defenders to repel a raid they detect early enough."

If that were true, then it would be rather pointless for Herbal to announce that he was 'coming for the relics at xx:xx on whatever day, and bringing 800 mates with him'.

Since that statement negates the surprise aspect of the raid attempt, if the defenders truely were at an advantage, there would be no point in the attack, or the threat of it; no numbers matter, and Herbal is basically informing Midgard that they will be overwhelmed by a force that numbers too many for them to combat, since Albs outnumber Mids considerably, whatever you say.

I guess the crux of the 'Primetime Agreement' is that Alb, for example, wants to have more than a handful of people on to defend it's relic keeps from an attack. All well and good, but at primetime its a relative handful of Mids what would be defending against 800 Albs, so why agree to such a thing?

Before the server went down the other night there were 3 cgs full of albs. Now I was at Mjolliner Faste, and yes you would have got the relics back if the server had stayed up. Why? Because we didn't have enough people online to defend against those numbers. Albs know it, Mids know it (and Goa doesn't care about it ).

Why agree to something that will only give advantage to one side? If we're only to relic raid at primetime, then Alb should only relic raid with x full groups, and no more. I wonder if that would be agreed to? No I didn't think so.

 

[mehuge]

Originally posted by riv
...

Albs agree to it because they are unbeatable at excal at prime time.

Hibs agree to it because they have the power relics and dont seem to care who has the str relics, especially as while the str relics are being contended, no one is attempting the power relics.

Mid/Hib RR against Alb Str is not doable primetime.
Hib RR against Mid Str is not doable primetime.

Alb RR against any Hib/Mid Str/Pwr doable anytime if the servers stay up.

Alb have the advantage of numbers.

If population is not a factor, then show me the Hibs taking the str relics at prime time!

 

[treaza]

Who is passing the cheese?

 

[old.Tzeentch]

too much to read.

but as always if there ever was anything i did not like or was not happy with in game, something that was in the capacity of players to change, i went out to try and achieve that.

i feel that many of your posts here are just passing the buck and asking other people to raise the bar a little and organise further large scale raids for you to enjoy.

nothing wrong with that, but please dont bitch about things you do not wish to directly take part in, namely, organising large scale warfare in daoc.

 

[old.Tzeentch]

Originally posted by mehuge
Albs agree to it because they are unbeatable at excal at prime time.

Hibs agree to it because they have the power relics and dont seem to care who has the str relics, especially as while the str relics are being contended, no one is attempting the power relics.

Mid/Hib RR against Alb Str is not doable primetime.
Hib RR against Mid Str is not doable primetime.

Alb RR against any Hib/Mid Str/Pwr doable anytime if the servers stay up.

Alb have the advantage of numbers.

If population is not a factor, then show me the Hibs taking the str relics at prime time!

Midgard or Albion can simply walk to Dagda atm and meet very little resistance, and proceed to take all the relics.

I guarantee you this, if you bring something which you guys call a standard zerg, there is nothing we can do.

I'll show you the hibs taking str relics prime time.

 

[old.yaruar]

Originally posted by Tualatin
Where's the fun in doing such early raids? atleast try in the afternoon orsmt... No defense at all, just the npc's.. and gosh, they are hard.. weren't they?

What's the fun in leading a raid with 500+ raiders steamrollering any opposition.

Where's the fun of log out and ninja raids where you succeed only because the enemy doesn't react in time...

I say ban anyone but fotm 8man groups from raiding, just to make it fair...

 

[evial]

to many peps talk about honor, when stealters kill gray. zerge kill soloers. There is not honor in it but, still its not wrong. Taking a relic on a alarm clock raid seem smarter then attac when the realm is crawling whit peps. I whod newe do a alarm clock raid for 1 reason only, when i got day off from school i like to sleep a bit longer then usual. But flaming a relm for doing a raid when your not playing is a bit lame.

 

[kirennia]

Originally posted by old.yaruar
What's the fun in leading a raid with 500+ raiders steamrollering any opposition.

Where's the fun of log out and ninja raids where you succeed only because the enemy doesn't react in time...

I say ban anyone but fotm 8man groups from raiding, just to make it fair...

there were 200 people at the relic keep and mids mustered 1fg defence there in the 20 mins we were there. Not at all our fault you can't bring more then that there.

As for the log out part, we logged out at loadsa diferent points throughout the course of 2 days. People were even SEEN logging fgs out yet mids decided to ignore it. Very much mids fault, not albs.

 

[kirennia]

Originally posted by evial
to many peps talk about honor, when stealters kill gray. zerge kill soloers. There is not honor in it but, still its not wrong. Taking a relic on a alarm clock raid seem smarter then attac when the realm is crawling whit peps. I whod newe do a alarm clock raid for 1 reason only, when i got day off from school i like to sleep a bit longer then usual. But flaming a relm for doing a raid when your not playing is a bit lame.

And I suppose if there was a way to kill the hardest mob in the game for the best drops without it hitting back, you would do it too? (If it was within CoC). No difference between that and doing the same to relics without any chance of defence. The best prize in the game for no effort.

 

[old.yaruar]

Originally posted by kirennia
there were 200 people at the relic keep and mids mustered 1fg defence there in the 20 mins we were there. Not at all our fault you can't bring more then that there.

As for the log out part, we logged out at loadsa diferent points throughout the course of 2 days. People were even SEEN logging fgs out yet mids decided to ignore it. Very much mids fault, not albs.

Yeah but saying 200 at the relic keep is a bit of a misrepresentation isn't it.

There were also 200/300+ taking keeps and camping milegates and dg and laying in wait on the road from uppland.

Even if we had raised the usual 100/150 defenders they wouldn't have stood a chance. And also we didn't have any information passed to us prior to the raid so we could prepare (that and being jaded due to having the relics for so long anyway)

Take it from me, any force which outnumbers the potential defence 1.5/1 at least will win. Unless we had all the defenders in the keep, but that's unrealistic.....

 

[evial]

Originally posted by kirennia
And I suppose if there was a way to kill the hardest mob in the game for the best drops without it hitting back, you would do it too? (If it was within CoC). No difference between that and doing the same to relics without any chance of defence. The best prize in the game for no effort.

if eny 1 found a way to kill the hib dragon and the dragone could not hit back it whod have been farmed 24/7. But its not a wery good point. Doing a relic raid and geting the relic is wery hard prime time, and if you pull it off all credits to you. But to call it honor is only stupid. There is a saying, every thing is fair in love and war. I can agree to that its alot more fun to do a relic raid prime time and making it. But if some 1 like doing a alarm clock raid who can say thay cant.

 

[old.Filip]

Take it from me, any force which outnumbers the potential defence 1.5/1 at least will win. Unless we had all the defenders in the keep, but that's unrealistic.....

thats wrong ....

with both 2 and 3 groups i have tryed to wipe out 6-8fg's on keeps .... both inside ... and from the outside ....

 

[zerz]

I am so totally fed about this conversation....

Who cares what time relic raids are made....like all says 24/7 game....Game goes on if server is not down ! Someone leads raids ----Good ! with Honour or with alarm clock ---so...primetime attacks ----jeee --- ok lets drink tea in the middle and solve rules of attack---come on !! .....if someone wakes up morning to do that....Go on !....skilzz or not or Both ! If You get 200 peeps Up 6 am...that is Skilzz !

I am MORe than Happy Midds got S relics....as My NS hate when Infil Hits Me that 300.....and Sh.. Up who says 20 % + melee is nothing.....gah !

I agree that all realms should have some player limit that we are equal on population BUT if someone is outnumbered more challenge... I have allways liked to fight against tides...

and last part Honour.....all realms have 2 enemy realms and we kill all that moves....It is Primetime, morning or 1 fg against 500 rr peeps.... Fight and stop this useless conversation...today evening nice fightgs against midds near amg/odin with my NS...ta ta

Midds Keep those relics !! !!