Scout, some questions...

P

Puppetmistress

Guest
Quite new to this 'stealth' concept in 'real RvR' but liking the idea I decided to roll a scout.. Level 34 now and climbing :)

Level 40 is coming close, so is the new patch so before I make a stupid decision, I am curious how much stealth I really need in RvR.

I know scout stealth << assassin stealth and I reckon they own me in melee just as easy, but that's besides the point :)

I really like the concept of a scout way better then off an assassin and I like range :)

So I was thinking about some specs:


45 Longbow
42 shield
29 slash
34 stealth

45 Longbow
42 shield
34 slash
29 stealth

50 Longbow
42 shield
29 slash
26 stealth.

I got a pretty good idea on how good/bad scout melee is. I really got no clue how 'good' 26 stealth (+11 + RR) is. Is it viable ? Or do I light up like a beakon ?

How much stealth do you recommend for RvR (solo) ? I wanna be able to escape 'zergs' and fg's (that can involve walking abit off them, I am ok with that).

From what range does an assassin spot me when I have 26(+11) stealth? Currently it's from far with See Hidden, but that's getting 'fixed'/'nerfed' so I reckon they have a harder time spotting me then.. But on what range is it ?

Anyone having some pointers?
 
M

makgsnake

Guest
out of the three you posted i would say:

50 Longbow
42 shield
29 slash
26 stealth.

when i had my scount i think 50 LB was a must, best asking loxleyhood for advice though.
 
L

loxleyhood

Guest
My 1.62 spec is going to be:

50 Longbow
42 Shield
34 Slash
20 Stealth

It may prove to be too little stealth, but an archer can have 50 stealth nowadays and it won't make a difference. Milegates (and many other places besides) are swarming with assasins and if you get close they are going to see you, hence why I have invested in a little more slash.

With +items and +RR I hope that my stealth will be enough to hide me from full groups and I don't worry about assasins because I camp roads and trees anyways now. The only time I will camp a milegate is if I have an infiltrattor guarding the gate, or if I have absaloutly no other choice. The milegates are death traps, its where stealth, no matter how high, will not save you.

Other than that you can just face the assasin problem head on and go for a 50 thrust spec. Not interested in it myself, as I think it needs a buffbot to be effective, something which I don't always have. With 50 thrust you can lower shield (and most lower Longbow too) and put it into stealth. But imo if you spec a scout 50 melee you might aswell roll an assasin.
 
M

m4rk

Guest
I powerlevelled myself to 50 so got autotrain points but my spec is

50 LB
42 shield
32 stealth
26 thrust

I believe its possible without autotrain to have this spec only slightly lower thrust/slash.


atm i have 32+12 stealth with epic on and its good enough, although before I had the +12 i stood out like a sore thumb.
 
R

Rollie_David

Guest
50 thrust
23 shield
45 bow
rest stealth

auto train bow to 48 and u get 30 stealth about 27 if u dont

slam will hardly land on a buffed assasin and considering most are buffed to the eyeballs, you will mostly die before u land a slam, and as i said most assaisns are buffed so have between 1300-1900hp

high wep spec gives u good wep skill which u need to hit an assasin as well as having 45 bow for doing good ranged damage.

it all depends on your playstyle though.
 
K

K0nah

Guest
if u plan to solo id suggest 47/48+ stealth with items/rr

soloing on a scout is a painful business, close to impossible atm, should improve after the patch with the LA and See Hidden nerfs

less than 30something stealth basically banishes u to the life of a grp scout (gl) because assasins will see u from several/many meters away even without See Hidden and _with_ Camo up... not funny.

i went 36stealth 46bow 25thrust 42shield in the end, my original template plan when i rolled the char :)

happy with it so far, still awaiting SC to see it in all its glory but with 49stealth i dont get knocked out of stealth by assasins very often (when camo is up)
 
T

Tranquil-

Guest
The deal with scout stealth vs assassin stealth is really only the Detect Hidden and See Hidden assassins have. Except of that, stealth is identical on all stealth classes.

Detect Hidden is an ability that lets the assassin detect other stealthed classes at a range that is greater than the normal detection ability which all classes have.

A non-stealth class can detect a stealther at a range that is decided by the detectors character level vs hidden character's charlvl.

A stealth class with no detect hidden detects stealthed characters in the exact same way.

A stealth class with detect hidden has an augmented detection ability over the other classes, but can be detected just as easily as a non-detect hidden stealth class by another detect hidden stealth class.

A detect hidden stealth class with See Hidden will have the same detection range as a non-see hidden character.

The only thing See Hidden does is that it lets the user see stealthed classes that doesn't have Detect Hidden at a range that's somewhere around 3k loc units, no matter what the hidden characters stealthspec is. Camouflage only works against See Hidden and doesn't help versus Detect Hidden or normal detection versus non-stealth characters.

Remember that this is how it is NOW. In 1.62 See Hidden is changed into an ability that takes the Hidden characters stealthspec into account.

I recommend you to read this thread that shows how See Hidden works down to detail. Read the entire thread though, cause I think the findings in the beginning was a bit inaccurate, can't remember exactly though.

Stealthspec depends on how you play. Are you good at staying away from assassins and move around alot?

Then you can get away with lower stealth(low 30's and below)
If you want stealth that you can count on in other situations aswell I'd recommend stealth at about 33-35, but not higher as realmranks will put you closer to 47+ total stealthspec. 47 stealth will not make you invisible though, 50 stealth IS optimal. The reason alot of people say that the 'sweetspot' is about 47-48 stealth is because stealth detection is on a 2 second pulse. This means that the range at where you will be detected can vary depending on the movement of you and the detector. This pulse is a 'buffer' that can, if you move around alot, let you get away with lower stealth(sometimes :p).

Something to also think about is perhaps a total of 51 modified stealthspec? Afaik noone has tested if the RR5 bonus is counted as lvl 51 regarding stealth detection. Someone should test imho. ;)

When you think about what kind of spec you want that depends on if you have a buffbot available and if you're going to solo or group. If you have a buffbot you can get away with a lower weapon/bowspec. When you solo, weaponskill is key.

Also, do you have thoughts about getting high realmrank? If you do then I wouldn't go above 34 base stealth. Here's a post I wrote some time ago about specs. It's not my spec, but it's a cookie cutter spec.

Originally posted by Tranquil-
Sorry about the essaylike post, if you don't need spec advice just skip down to the last two paragraphs and read what I wrote about the respecs. :)

If you want a nicely balanced template(also considering the love archers are getting in the bow specline in 1.62) it would be something like:

45 Longbow
29 Slash
34 Stealth
42 Shield

This is a cookie cutter template which isn't bad in any areas, but doesn't excel in anything. Feel free to add or remove points into what you feel is vital with your style of play.

In 1.62 we're getting something called Penetrating Arrow which will do exactly that on Pulsing Bladeturns, it penetrates it. It will only break and go through BT's that are casted on other people. It will not work on the classes that give PBT or BT. This means that PA won't work on Wardens/Theurgists/Runemasters that has their own PBT/BT on themselves. It will only work on targets that have gotten PBT or BT from someone else. And it doesn't work on the self BT that casters get.

Penetrating Arrow 1 is at 30 Longbow spec and does only 50% of normal damage against a PBT, PA 2 is at 40 spec and does 75% of normal damage and PA 3 is full normal damage against PBT. All versions pop the PBT. PA is a passive skill, meaning it's always on.

We also get something called Rapid Fire which is a mode we can switch on when we want and allows us to release the shot whenever we like aslong as 50% of our drawtime has gone by.

The different versions of RF are only different because RF 1 (at 35 Longbow spec) uses more endurance per shot than RF 2 (at 45 Longbowspec). The damage you do is scaled up with how long time you let the draw wait untill you release. If you release the arrow at exactly 50% of your drawtime you will do 50% of normal damage. If you release at 75%, you'll do 75% damage, etc.

So, with the spec I suggested up there you'll get PA 2(75% damage against PBT) and RF 2(the least endurance hogging RF). And you'll do decent damage overall with bow without being totally lost if you're without a buffbot.

With 29 Slash you'll get Amethyst Slash, perhaps the best anytime style in the game and not too bad damage with your slasher.

Slash or Thrust is a question that is probably one of the most debated issues when it comes to Scout specs. And the debate usually ends with people agreeing that it's a personal choice. You get higher weaponskill with thrust and you won't get as crippled as a slash user if an assassin debuffs you since thrust weaponskill is affect by both str and dex equally. Slash is 100% strength based and that's bad if you get strength debuffed. You'll get evaded alot more and that opens up for both more damage done to you, stunstyles etc and the pretty obvious missed chance to do damage which won't exactly kill anyone but yourself. ;)

Purge helps against debuffs though, so if you have that, then you'll get around debuffs every 30th minute unless the assassin reapplies poisons. Though a solo archer might want to look at Ignore Pain/First Aid before Purge.

With 34 Stealth(47-48ish modified stealth) you'll get enough stealth to roam around unless you do alot of stealthing in emain or you do alot of stealthing near high level mobs. I've got 33 stealth and I'm happy with it. You won't get 50 stealth untill RR6 though.

What you do and how you usually play has alot to say in how high stealth you want of course. If you are in groups alot I'd still get atleast 30 stealth.

42 Shield is more or less the standard unless you do any other extreme spec choices like 50 Thrust etc. Gives you Slam which will be used often enough. It's alot of points spent, but it gives you a tide turning ability. Unless someone purges in your face that is. :p

Most of this is from a solo perspective, but groupwise(which seems to be more inline with your style of play looking at your posts in this thread) I'd look at slash since you won't get str/con debuffed that much and you'll most likely(hopefully :)) get heals/cure poison/etc etc to aid you if that happens. This might put slash in a better spot since it's more reliable damage when you look at the anytime styles. It's at a disadvantage against Midgardian chain, Hibernian Leather and Reinforced though, but good against Midgardian Leather, Midgardian Studded and Hibernian Scale armour. Good against Hib support/tanks(scale) and Midgard stealthers, but worse against Hib stealthers and Mid support/tanks. Thrust is neutral against all Hib and good against Mid support/tanks, but at a disadvantage against Mid stealthers. So as a damagetype thrust is better. But your melee won't be what your group relies on for damage, hopefully. :) With bow you can switch damagetypes, so that's not an issue of course.

You could also lower stealth if you're not going to be soloing that much and add the points to bow or melee, though unless you are going for 50 bow I wouldn't add more to it.

About your full respec. Have you dinged more than once since we got it? If it's so it's lost and you'll have to wait for the single line respecs we get in 1.62 or if you're lucky enough, get a dragon respec stone.

If you still have the full respec we got many patches ago, you MUST use it BEFORE we are patched to 1.62 or else the new single line respec will over ride the full respec and you'll lose the full respec chance.
 
G

Galiryn

Guest
imo

50 shield
45 bow
35 stealth
7 thrust


:>
 
R

Rollie_David

Guest
well i prefer my weaponskill, i melee'd a low rr savage down solo and would of killed ozoner from RG solo(zerker) but he was healed and saved by a fg :)
 
P

Puppetmistress

Guest
Originally posted by Strapon Sally
well i prefer my weaponskill, i melee'd a low rr savage down solo and would of killed ozoner from RG solo(zerker) but he was healed and saved by a fg :)

Well, I don't wanna go 50 weaponskill, because then I focus too much on melee and less on a scout it's strong points imo :)

And how high is your weaponskill as scout with 50 thrust? And how hard you hit ?

Isn't it better to roll an infiltrator then ?
 
M

mac_kraakebolle

Guest
Originally posted by Galiryn
imo

50 shield
45 bow
35 stealth
7 thrust


:>

Did you read this on vn allso?
Seemed pretty cool :)

I wanna know tho if anyone on this server has tryed this out? :D
 
L

loxleyhood

Guest
Gethin has 50 shield, but hes the only one I know of.
 
M

m4rk

Guest
Alot of Scouts in US have gone 50 shield... they just repeatadly spam brutalize, apparently does more dmg and uses same end as most weapon styles.
 
R

Rollie_David

Guest
Originally posted by Puppetmistress
Well, I don't wanna go 50 weaponskill, because then I focus too much on melee and less on a scout it's strong points imo :)

And how high is your weaponskill as scout with 50 thrust? And how hard you hit ?

Isn't it better to roll an infiltrator then ?

i dont wanna roll an inf, i love playing an archer, with 50+13+buffs i have over 1300 weaponskill which helps ALOT in melee battle, my bow is 45+13 so i still do very good damage since the difference between 45>50 bow is very small.

Also slam is based on your weaponskill, so when you go up against a assasin and your debuffed and your weaponskill drops you are now in the situation of having lowish weaponspec and very low weaponskill and slam will be evaded 9 times out of 10.

I would much rather put my chances of meleeing classes down after ive took plenty of HP than relying on slam which is very risky.

As i said with my spec i melee'd a savage, he took 4 hits from bow, used IP and then i melee'd him down, i had to use IP and was very low, and i also missed my dragonfang.

Same with zerker except my bow made him use IP then it was melee and if his mates didnt turn up and heal him and kill me he would of been dead.

My damage also varies on my style, using the tranq/wyvernfang on SB who are resistant to my thrust i see hits from 80-160, if i land a dragonfang its usually over 200 each time i spam it, but in general i do decent melee.

My 23 shield gives me reverse slam which is more than enough imho.
 
T

Tranquil-

Guest
Shieldstyles are not affected by your main weaponspec.

Shieldstyles get their own weaponskill based on shieldspec, but it's not displayed anywhere. Shield 'weaponskill' is also based on strength(I think it was strength, it was either 100% str or 100% dex, can't remember as it's a while ago I asked Oaklief. I mean it's 100% strength.), which then means that you not only lose your ability to get past evades if you are str debuffed, but you'll also lose alot of damage.
 
T

Tranquil-

Guest
Blocking, yes. The shield styledamage and shield weaponskill is strength though, iirc.
 
I

infernalwrath

Guest
Originally posted by Puppetmistress
Quite new to this 'stealth' concept in 'real RvR' but liking the idea I decided to roll a scout.. Level 34 now and climbing :)

Level 40 is coming close, so is the new patch so before I make a stupid decision, I am curious how much stealth I really need in RvR.

I know scout stealth << assassin stealth and I reckon they own me in melee just as easy, but that's besides the point :)

I really like the concept of a scout way better then off an assassin and I like range :)

So I was thinking about some specs:


45 Longbow
42 shield
29 slash
34 stealth

45 Longbow
42 shield
34 slash
29 stealth

50 Longbow
42 shield
29 slash
26 stealth.

I got a pretty good idea on how good/bad scout melee is. I really got no clue how 'good' 26 stealth (+11 + RR) is. Is it viable ? Or do I light up like a beakon ?

How much stealth do you recommend for RvR (solo) ? I wanna be able to escape 'zergs' and fg's (that can involve walking abit off them, I am ok with that).

From what range does an assassin spot me when I have 26(+11) stealth? Currently it's from far with See Hidden, but that's getting 'fixed'/'nerfed' so I reckon they have a harder time spotting me then.. But on what range is it ?

Anyone having some pointers?
atm i am specced 45 lb 42 shield 34 slash 29 stealth
gonna respec slash and put 34 stealth ... even with 34 slash u have crap ws crap damage output ...ehmm crap everyhting.. u are a scout .. :rolleyes:
Now all scouts can cry mythic a river to get some lov as hunter got
imo stealth > melee cause scout melee = crap :)
 
M

mac_kraakebolle

Guest
shield dammage is dex, or so I read on vn heh :)

the good thing about using failed bruts was that it was dex only so the wepskill could not be debuffed by asassins. It basicly did the same dammage as weapon styles but the big tradeoff is that you are screwed if you go ooe. Advantages are that the offensive and defensive skill is in one line so you ultimatly get the extra blocking as a bonus :) and when you block the brut is deadly Id imagine :) (is it a 9 or 10 sec stun? )
 
T

Tranquil-

Guest
Brutalize is 9sec as Slam.

Mkay, I can't remember for sure, but if it's dex you're certainly better off. It also helps that it's crush damage.
 
S

skile

Guest
Go with 34 stealth, or 33. The higher the stealth u have (don't go higher than 50 (with items and rr)) the more you can avoid assasins. You won't be that dependable on melee anymore, will probably be alot of sniping involved in the coming patch. You should for example be able to drop a caster in a grp, when they are resting near a mg for example, u need 50 bow for this (PA3).
 
L

loxleyhood

Guest
Originally posted by skile
Go with 34 stealth, or 33. The higher the stealth u have (don't go higher than 50 (with items and rr)) the more you can avoid assasins. You won't be that dependable on melee anymore, will probably be alot of sniping involved in the coming patch. You should for example be able to drop a caster in a grp, when they are resting near a mg for example, u need 50 bow for this (PA3).

Only if the group in question has pbt. You will need Longshot to drop the caster's self bt.
 
A

Appollo

Guest
Silly question inc:

Does the scouts stealth affect there camo?

I have grped with Sniper many times, dunno his spec but when he camo's i cant see him, same with Shar also.
 
L

loxleyhood

Guest
Camo does not decrease the chance to be seen in stealth, it only stops see hidden from working on you. All other stealth rules still apply.
 
V

vandar

Guest
I'm specced:

50 lb
42 shield
35 stealth
18 thrust

I've capped all skills, stats, hits and just a few resists down atm (till 1.62 neckie)

To be honest, I find my weapon damage good if I'm on an equal footing, i.e. Either both not buffed or both buffed.
The same applies with the bow.
I can melee, slam, bow, bow, melee quite effectively, if they purge though it can be a close fight.

I went 50lb as I'm waiting to see what the full penetrate arrow is like (a friend will have 45 so can do some tests), if this proves to be a complete waste I may lower lb and raise thrust but I doubt it.

Put up against a buffed opponent though and its a different matter. My bow dmg drops a silly amount if I hit at all (huge number of misses and evades).
Add to this the fact that quite a number of non assasin types have buffbots nowadays and it starts to become difficult to have any viable spec unless you get your own buffbot or a friendly cleric. (wonder how much revenue GOA get based on buffbot accounts as a percentage of the total, then work out why they don't seem keen to address the problem)

Assasins normally own me unless I can land a slam, then bow etc but then if they purge I'm fooked.

When I was gettin my template sorted and only RR2 I had 35+10 stealth, this was dangerous as getting even in the same region as an assasins, even with Camo up, was death.
Atm I've got 35+13 and it does pretty well except obviously wandering through the mile gates.

Saying all this, it depends on what you want, I only tend to join regular groups at keep takes. Approx 70% solo, 20% grouped with an inf, 10% with regular groups.
 
S

skile

Guest
Originally posted by loxleyhood
Only if the group in question has pbt. You will need Longshot to drop the caster's self bt.

Hmm, rather rapidfire :p.
 

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