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old.Gimp
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- #61
Ban SYD!
SYD is clearly a whore.
SYD is clearly a whore.
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old.jonna -[ND]-Napalm
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- #62
this dual clanning rule has certainly sparked some interest and some llama replies...anyway speaking from a lower divisional perspective if we allow whores then the lower divisions will become a mess.the whole point of divisions is to be put alongside players/clans of similar/equal quality.....so if you allow whores to operate then lower divisions suffer, becoming tired of getting trounced 200-0 week after week...come on people see the sense in this please.it aint hard!
but....how the hell are you gonna govern this rule????
are we gonna have an admin sit after every week and look at all the WON id's for every match and see who is dual clanning?..this rule aint as easy to up hold as it may seem.
nuff shite from me
but....how the hell are you gonna govern this rule????
are we gonna have an admin sit after every week and look at all the WON id's for every match and see who is dual clanning?..this rule aint as easy to up hold as it may seem.
nuff shite from me
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fade-
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- #63
Syd rules!
They were alowed this season and the low divs wern't a mess why would things change?
I have 2 CD Keys and easy access to another 2 don't know about other ppl but there is no way to enforce it or even check on it.
Some1 could easily 2 new aliases join 2 BW clans and they would never know about each other. Just an example I wouldn't do it though.
fAde-
They were alowed this season and the low divs wern't a mess why would things change?
I have 2 CD Keys and easy access to another 2 don't know about other ppl but there is no way to enforce it or even check on it.
Some1 could easily 2 new aliases join 2 BW clans and they would never know about each other. Just an example I wouldn't do it though.
fAde-
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Mörgoth
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- #64
Who made these "llama replies" if I may ask?
Did GOD trounce anyone 200-0? Good lord no! GOD finished 4th in division 3, and I played in every BWTFCL match. What does this show?
It shows that a division 1 player can't be a one man team. The quality of some division 2 and 3 clans is extremely high, besides. I can say that we met some very good attackers, and nice tight, organised defenses in our division 3 games.
As Fade points out, *did* dual-clanning affect division 2/3 this season? Evidently not. If it had, GOD would have finished 1st in division 3, winning all their games and having +1000 and -20 points (crossover is tough on defense
).
Thus how can you say it affects the lower divisions?
If you still think this could be a negative influence on developing clans, consider Syd's suggestion, that has been repeated endless times in this thread by now - only allow dual-clanning (not 3 clans) and only if those two clans are in adjacent divisions.
Why can't you anti-dual-clanners be a tad more amenable anyway?
Did GOD trounce anyone 200-0? Good lord no! GOD finished 4th in division 3, and I played in every BWTFCL match. What does this show?
It shows that a division 1 player can't be a one man team. The quality of some division 2 and 3 clans is extremely high, besides. I can say that we met some very good attackers, and nice tight, organised defenses in our division 3 games.
As Fade points out, *did* dual-clanning affect division 2/3 this season? Evidently not. If it had, GOD would have finished 1st in division 3, winning all their games and having +1000 and -20 points (crossover is tough on defense
).Thus how can you say it affects the lower divisions?
If you still think this could be a negative influence on developing clans, consider Syd's suggestion, that has been repeated endless times in this thread by now - only allow dual-clanning (not 3 clans) and only if those two clans are in adjacent divisions.
Why can't you anti-dual-clanners be a tad more amenable anyway?
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old.TGC Snow
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- #65
as i have already said, it isn't a case of the effect of certain individuals. perhaps morgoth does not weight GOD unfairly, making them a division 3 super clan, but if he =was= a very very good player, he =could=. We can't have some admin going around deciding whether such and such a whore has a noticably bad effect on his division or not, so therefore a blanket ban on whores is the only solution.
I know that Fade and Morgoth didn't cause a problem, but unfortunately leagues can't run on rules which say "if the admins know they aren't ruining things, then those whores are ok. but if they're abusing the system then they aren't". It just just doesn't work. A blanket ban, as Syd puts it IS the only acceptable way of dealing with it.
All this talk of compromises and Fade offering to be an admin for dual-clanners, etc. etc. is just complete wishful thinking. Do none of you have memories?? whoring almost ruined TFC when UKTFCL first allowed it... everyone had their second, third, fourth clans... fortunately =most= ppl realised that it's stupid, and ruins the point of the game. And the funny thing is, that back then it was only allowed for the "real" dual-clanners - people like [TA]Wildfire/[~A~]Resonance. I don't have a problem with ppl like that, but unfortunately, the rules have no way of distinguishing between these ppl, and the little sods who just go around wrecking the lower divisions.
There is absolutely no way dual-clanning will be considered acceptable in next season of BWTFCL. If you really really want a vote on it, then get some more support, and even then i assure u the vote will go against dual-clanning. And yes, majority DOES rule.
I know that Fade and Morgoth didn't cause a problem, but unfortunately leagues can't run on rules which say "if the admins know they aren't ruining things, then those whores are ok. but if they're abusing the system then they aren't". It just just doesn't work. A blanket ban, as Syd puts it IS the only acceptable way of dealing with it.
All this talk of compromises and Fade offering to be an admin for dual-clanners, etc. etc. is just complete wishful thinking. Do none of you have memories?? whoring almost ruined TFC when UKTFCL first allowed it... everyone had their second, third, fourth clans... fortunately =most= ppl realised that it's stupid, and ruins the point of the game. And the funny thing is, that back then it was only allowed for the "real" dual-clanners - people like [TA]Wildfire/[~A~]Resonance. I don't have a problem with ppl like that, but unfortunately, the rules have no way of distinguishing between these ppl, and the little sods who just go around wrecking the lower divisions.
There is absolutely no way dual-clanning will be considered acceptable in next season of BWTFCL. If you really really want a vote on it, then get some more support, and even then i assure u the vote will go against dual-clanning. And yes, majority DOES rule.
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Atomic Rammer
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- #66
Yes of course majority rules, noone said it didnt. What we are trying to point out, and hopefully educate people out there is that even IF you do have a majority support you are still wrong to do it while ignoring alternative suggestions.
"We can't have some admin going around deciding whether such and such a whore has a noticably bad effect on his division or not"
NOONE ever said that. You dont actually know whats going on methinks. There is no question of someone making judgement calls, you just apply the suggested rules. They are as clear as black and white.
"whoring almost ruined TFC when UKTFCL first allowed it... everyone had their second, third, fourth clans... "
This is fucking unbelievable, you are still quoting examples of how whores can ruin a league, when we have proposed rules which eliminate this particular problem that you still insist on talking about. /me tears hair out in amazement and frustration! FFS!
And BWTFCL has had whores allowed from day 1. If they are causing a problem I have not heard of it.
"the rules have no way of distinguishing between these ppl, and the little sods who just go around wrecking the lower divisions"
As pointed out many times now, little sods who want to still be little sods, will still be little sods using the many different ways listed earlier to get around the rules. What you are doing is as good as just getting everyone in a group and saying "ok guys no funny business while I'm not looking". We suggest ways to allow people who want to dual clan to do it openly, but in a constrained way that is fair, and at the same time address some wider issues to do with similar dishonesty but noone is listening.
Its like the prejudice is so bad against whores, perhaps coming from bad experiences in UKTFCL, that when we try and discuss the matter everyone is just running round with their hands over their ears saying NO NO NO NO!
Thats what it feels like reading the responses from people who want to ban whores. They are just totally clueless, and closed minded, and have not even been paying attention to what we are proposing.
If what we are proposing is so utterly crap then you should have no problems picking holes in them objectively and rationally as I have done to the ban whores rule. If they dont hold up well to scrutiny then have it your way coz we dont have anything better to suggest.
P.S sorry if this reply lowers the tone a little but this discussion is starting to get up my bum coz noone has the courtesy to even pay attention, or to discuss our proposals.
"We can't have some admin going around deciding whether such and such a whore has a noticably bad effect on his division or not"
NOONE ever said that. You dont actually know whats going on methinks. There is no question of someone making judgement calls, you just apply the suggested rules. They are as clear as black and white.
"whoring almost ruined TFC when UKTFCL first allowed it... everyone had their second, third, fourth clans... "
This is fucking unbelievable, you are still quoting examples of how whores can ruin a league, when we have proposed rules which eliminate this particular problem that you still insist on talking about. /me tears hair out in amazement and frustration! FFS!
And BWTFCL has had whores allowed from day 1. If they are causing a problem I have not heard of it.
"the rules have no way of distinguishing between these ppl, and the little sods who just go around wrecking the lower divisions"
As pointed out many times now, little sods who want to still be little sods, will still be little sods using the many different ways listed earlier to get around the rules. What you are doing is as good as just getting everyone in a group and saying "ok guys no funny business while I'm not looking". We suggest ways to allow people who want to dual clan to do it openly, but in a constrained way that is fair, and at the same time address some wider issues to do with similar dishonesty but noone is listening.
Its like the prejudice is so bad against whores, perhaps coming from bad experiences in UKTFCL, that when we try and discuss the matter everyone is just running round with their hands over their ears saying NO NO NO NO!
Thats what it feels like reading the responses from people who want to ban whores. They are just totally clueless, and closed minded, and have not even been paying attention to what we are proposing.
If what we are proposing is so utterly crap then you should have no problems picking holes in them objectively and rationally as I have done to the ban whores rule. If they dont hold up well to scrutiny then have it your way coz we dont have anything better to suggest.
P.S sorry if this reply lowers the tone a little but this discussion is starting to get up my bum coz noone has the courtesy to even pay attention, or to discuss our proposals.
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vuz
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- #67
i'll be honest, i can't be assed to read all of syd's last post, but the top comment:
We never ignored the idea of allowing whores, we let them in for the last 2 seasons, we then reviewed the situation this season after a large number of complaints as to whores being allowed and came to the conclusion that they weren't for the best and thats what the majority thinks, there have been alternative suggestions in this post but none we feel are as good as simply banning whores outright, of course its possible to cheat, but thats beside the point, its possible to use graphic card drivers that let you through walls, how the fuck we'd be able to catch people i dunno, we just have to trust people not to.
o_o
We never ignored the idea of allowing whores, we let them in for the last 2 seasons, we then reviewed the situation this season after a large number of complaints as to whores being allowed and came to the conclusion that they weren't for the best and thats what the majority thinks, there have been alternative suggestions in this post but none we feel are as good as simply banning whores outright, of course its possible to cheat, but thats beside the point, its possible to use graphic card drivers that let you through walls, how the fuck we'd be able to catch people i dunno, we just have to trust people not to.
o_o
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Mörgoth
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- #68
But that's exactly the point! The people who want to be whores will do it anyway! You just as much admitted that there is no way you can catch them.
You said that there is no way to catch people who cheat using graphics drivers or whatever. I assume then that that is why you don't have a "no graphics drivers cheating" rule in the season 3 rules. As there is no way to catch people using this hypothetical cheat.
*Similarly*, there is no realistic way you can catch people who are "cheating" by whoring out to multiple clans within the league. You just admitted this in your post! So why do you have a rule that stops genuine people who just want to play in two clans from playing in both?
Argh, I'm as pissed off as Syd is by now. It's clear that you admins just aren't ready to accept dual-clanning, no matter how feasible or workable the work-around suggestions are.
You said that there is no way to catch people who cheat using graphics drivers or whatever. I assume then that that is why you don't have a "no graphics drivers cheating" rule in the season 3 rules. As there is no way to catch people using this hypothetical cheat.
*Similarly*, there is no realistic way you can catch people who are "cheating" by whoring out to multiple clans within the league. You just admitted this in your post! So why do you have a rule that stops genuine people who just want to play in two clans from playing in both?
Argh, I'm as pissed off as Syd is by now. It's clear that you admins just aren't ready to accept dual-clanning, no matter how feasible or workable the work-around suggestions are.
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old.[UESC]Si
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- #69
im back
hmmm tis an interesting discussion and no mistake, and ppl aint ignoring u syd..otherwise we wouldnt be having this fook off big discussion would we
hmmm, u got me stumped.
Some minor things
"That would mean all the major leagues would have to cooperate and say - if you join another team in any league then both leagues will punish you. (yes a stupid suggestion!) This would also mean cooperation if any enforcement was to be done, using a central wonID database. EEEK!". I dislike most of the admins in BWTFCL for personal reasons not for their ability, so leagues cooperating aint that much of a big deal and tbh if we wanted whores completly out i cant see y we wouldnt just exchange wonid's and get u banned off as many servers as possible. A central wonid database also aint that big of a concept, i know of a few going around, would just need some work to bring em together
hmmm finding whores out. Its bloody tricky but with some detective work its possibe imo. So you have 2 wonid's, I and many other admins could stalk you, see wot situations u use ure wonid and name in e.g. u use the wrong wonid in a clan praccy, i might have rcon for that server and get ure wonid. Not much sense i know but i cant be arsed to explain it properly, all im saying is, with a bit of work you can hunt down a whore and find them out.
hmmm tis an interesting discussion and no mistake, and ppl aint ignoring u syd..otherwise we wouldnt be having this fook off big discussion would we
hmmm, u got me stumped.
Some minor things
"That would mean all the major leagues would have to cooperate and say - if you join another team in any league then both leagues will punish you. (yes a stupid suggestion!) This would also mean cooperation if any enforcement was to be done, using a central wonID database. EEEK!". I dislike most of the admins in BWTFCL for personal reasons not for their ability, so leagues cooperating aint that much of a big deal and tbh if we wanted whores completly out i cant see y we wouldnt just exchange wonid's and get u banned off as many servers as possible. A central wonid database also aint that big of a concept, i know of a few going around, would just need some work to bring em together
hmmm finding whores out. Its bloody tricky but with some detective work its possibe imo. So you have 2 wonid's, I and many other admins could stalk you, see wot situations u use ure wonid and name in e.g. u use the wrong wonid in a clan praccy, i might have rcon for that server and get ure wonid. Not much sense i know but i cant be arsed to explain it properly, all im saying is, with a bit of work you can hunt down a whore and find them out.
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fade-
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- #70
There seems to be more posts FOR dual-clanners that AGAINST now and the admins still arn't paying atention, Vuz even said so!
Lets ban HPBs next! they drag all our pings down and have a negative effect on game play. BAN-HPBs!
Lets ban HPBs next! they drag all our pings down and have a negative effect on game play. BAN-HPBs!
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fade-
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- #71
Si's sugestion of hunting dual-clanners down would mean about 200 times more work than nething else sugested here!
+ I don't think it would be that easy.
+ I don't think it would be that easy.
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vuz
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- #72
fAde-: there are more posts for your cause in this thread due to the fact that you're the ones complaining in the first place, if we did allow whores I'm sure we'd have a much bigger thread completely filled with people who want it removed
It's not changing, we have listened, we discussed it many a time in our adminny type IRC room... soz, I wud really really like it if it was possible for Fade to play in both TGC and A&I but it just aint happening
It's not changing, we have listened, we discussed it many a time in our adminny type IRC room... soz, I wud really really like it if it was possible for Fade to play in both TGC and A&I but it just aint happening
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old.[UESC]Si
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- #73
u aint tried it fade m8, tbh hunting down whores is the better part of me work
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fade-
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- #74
We wern't the first to complane, some1 else did and then not long after dual-clanning was baned. U can't have done it properly cus the first I (the TGC rep in BWTFCL) heard about it was on the news page and that it had been baned!
U can't run a league on just what the admins want, I was under the impression that the admins were running it for the ppl who play in it...
Scrap the first ruling cus it was invalid and read what ppl have to say!
U can't run a league on just what the admins want, I was under the impression that the admins were running it for the ppl who play in it...
Scrap the first ruling cus it was invalid and read what ppl have to say!
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fade-
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- #75
lol @ Si PI
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old.TGC Snow
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- #76
it'll be slightly easier to catch whores in BWTFCL coz all our servers are provided by one company. Also, i think u'll find that if the punishments for using whores are strong enough, u don't need to catch every whore...
and Si doesn't like us coz bwtfcl admin is a secret society for argumentative opinionated little pricks and me
and Si doesn't like us coz bwtfcl admin is a secret society for argumentative opinionated little pricks
and me
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old.Gimp
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- #77
This is because all the whores are coming out to voice their opinion on the forum, whereas the not-whores, aren't. These forums are limited in response due to the small size of the BWTFC community at the moment.
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old.Andy
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- #78
Well, Syds not a whore, and yet he's been the main poster arguing on their behalf.
Probably because, like myself, he sees some unfairness in introducing a rule without any proper discussion beforehand.
If the Ban Whores people are so sure that it is right, they shouldn't have any problem with people discussing alternatives, because they would be able to prove that the Ban Whores rule is best.
In an ideal world each clan having its own members would be good, but suddenly making a new rule just for the hell of it, with no evidence that the previous season was in any way affected by dual-clanners, seems strange.
I also think the rule will be near impossible to police, obviously if Fade, for example, tries to play for TGC and A&I he'll get caught, but others who nobody knows are dual-clanning will most likely get away with it.
Probably because, like myself, he sees some unfairness in introducing a rule without any proper discussion beforehand.
If the Ban Whores people are so sure that it is right, they shouldn't have any problem with people discussing alternatives, because they would be able to prove that the Ban Whores rule is best.
In an ideal world each clan having its own members would be good, but suddenly making a new rule just for the hell of it, with no evidence that the previous season was in any way affected by dual-clanners, seems strange.
I also think the rule will be near impossible to police, obviously if Fade, for example, tries to play for TGC and A&I he'll get caught, but others who nobody knows are dual-clanning will most likely get away with it.
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old.TGC Snow
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- #79
si has been explaining to me some excellent way of catching whores... don't worry... and the punishment will be =very= harsh, so u'd be a fool to even try it.
also, syd wants whores because he wants fade to play for A&I, basically...
also, syd wants whores because he wants fade to play for A&I, basically...
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old.Andy
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- #80
I doubt that, seeing as Syd has been saying dual clanning should be allowed but only if the clans aren't in the same division, which doesn't really help Fade.
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Atomic Rammer
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- #81
MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Ta andy
Ta andy
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Atomic Rammer
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- #82
bah theres nothing worth posting about today
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Atomic Rammer
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- #83
Just a thought tho.
I note with amusement that the focus now is shifting over to crushing the bastard dirty whores out of existence with severe punishments. What are the punishments? Please clarify the rules.
I also note with amusement Snow coming up with a totally groundless accusation about why I am fighting the whores' case. Thanks again andy for giving him the totally obvious facts. Perhaps snow betrays some of his own reasons for not wanting whores allowed - he doesn't like fade playing for A&I. Not good. I'm only posting coz I like a good debate and I would like things done right. In my judgement you are being unfair and I'm just stating why. Prove me wrong.
What are you going to do if a div 3 BWTFCL clan recruits someone from UKTFCL prem?
Face it youre still up shit creek and I've got your paddle.
I note with amusement that the focus now is shifting over to crushing the bastard dirty whores out of existence with severe punishments. What are the punishments? Please clarify the rules.
I also note with amusement Snow coming up with a totally groundless accusation about why I am fighting the whores' case. Thanks again andy for giving him the totally obvious facts. Perhaps snow betrays some of his own reasons for not wanting whores allowed - he doesn't like fade playing for A&I. Not good. I'm only posting coz I like a good debate and I would like things done right. In my judgement you are being unfair and I'm just stating why. Prove me wrong.
What are you going to do if a div 3 BWTFCL clan recruits someone from UKTFCL prem?
Face it youre still up shit creek and I've got your paddle.
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old.[UESC]Si
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- #84
leagues could always work together...
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vuz
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- #85
hmm, firstly yes to Si, leagues working together sounds pretty sweet
secondly no to SYD, i would like fAde to play for A&I, I know he 0wnz, I like playing along side him, but thats beside the point and not affecting my decision... its not about completely getting rid of it, its doing whatever possible to minimise it and its effects
secondly no to SYD, i would like fAde to play for A&I, I know he 0wnz, I like playing along side him, but thats beside the point and not affecting my decision... its not about completely getting rid of it, its doing whatever possible to minimise it and its effects
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old.[RA]Ring Peace
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- #86
Erm with the shake up of the league structure, doesn't it make that arguement redundant?
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fade-
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- #87
So u (admins) say all this is becasue some ppl complaned, who u've obviously listened to.
Why don't we get the same?
I think this may have gone from what the ppl in the league wan't and be what the admins want... (hmmmmmm)
I'm getting sick of this, I don't know what I'm going to do
:-/
fAde-
Why don't we get the same?
I think this may have gone from what the ppl in the league wan't and be what the admins want... (hmmmmmm)
I'm getting sick of this, I don't know what I'm going to do
:-/
fAde-
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Mörgoth
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- #88
I know what I'm gonna do. Say "RAAA" to the admins, coz I just got me an email from an ex-MUF member saying he has got tired of the premiership and wants to have a little more fun playing TFC... namely, with GOD!
Looks like with our newly recruited l33t defense engy/solly, and with this fellow and myself on offense, GOD are gonna 0wn and b0n3 in division 2 next season. So much for stopping the lower divisions being "ruined" by banning dual-clanning.
Btw, allowing dual-clanning, albeit with restraints, is quite feasible going on everything that's been said here. Thanks admins for bringing up such weak arguments against this and basicly crushing our petition with very little basis at all.
Great stuff. Cya in season 3!
Looks like with our newly recruited l33t defense engy/solly, and with this fellow and myself on offense, GOD are gonna 0wn and b0n3 in division 2 next season.
So much for stopping the lower divisions being "ruined" by banning dual-clanning.Btw, allowing dual-clanning, albeit with restraints, is quite feasible going on everything that's been said here. Thanks admins for bringing up such weak arguments against this and basicly crushing our petition with very little basis at all.
Great stuff.
Cya in season 3!
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old.Mr War
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- #89
man stfu. your really starting to annoy me.
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Atomic Rammer
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- #90
Is that an official admin statement?
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