V
vuz
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- #31
i think snows last comment [maybe without the go at Dispel who now only plays for BC afaik..] kinda rounds it up :/
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Atomic Rammer
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- #32
LMAO at dictionaries out!
Ok, justice i believe is a necessity, and it is unjust for you to want players not to play in the league and possibly leave a clan only because u dont like them being in 2 clans.
And for gods sake read it properly - it says the necessities of LIFE are (blah).
Food, clothes, sheltar relate to life not necessity or how important things must be to be necessary. LOL!
And still noone, not the admins, or the ban whores camp have come up with any reason whatsoever as to why allowing a player to compete in two adjacent divisions is a bad idea. most just choosing to talk about football or get dictionaries out or talk about the other minor offtopic points.
The only things they can say is that I dont like whores, or everyone else is against them. The fact that whores would probably get banned in a vote proves nothing. It just proves that the prejudice against whores is widespread, and that the witch hunt to evict them from the league would succeed. It doesnt make it right - far from it. Maybe Gimp can research the origins of witch hunt for us and tell us exactly why that is.
Snow, im deadly serious when I say "its only a game" I'm not taking saying that lightly. But the league is trying to use a rule that is forcing some players not to play games with their friends in the league anymore, and which may result in them having to leave that clan because they dont get to play any games. I think thats absolutely disgusting. So yes "its only a game". Quit over legislating, this is supposed to be a league for people to have fun in.
It does not affect me if there are whores or not in the league, but I look at the situation and in principle i see it is wrong to punish people who have done nothing wrong, when I have suggested a way that allows legitimate whoring but stops the evil whoring which you are seeking to stop.
You are totally ignoring my suggestion and still persuing a blanket ban on all whores, which leads me to believe the rule is being passed because of prejudice rather than doing things right.
I'm still totally open minded about the situation. Why dont you try and convince me that a blanket ban on whores is right. You can do that by:
Explaing to me what exactly dispell or others did that people object to. (no flames tho
)
Explaining to me how a blanket ban on whores stops that.
Explaining to me why a blanket ban on whores is better than what I have suggested.
Explaining to me what exactly is fundamentally wrong with being in 2 clans.
Giving me a squillion quid.
Ok, justice i believe is a necessity, and it is unjust for you to want players not to play in the league and possibly leave a clan only because u dont like them being in 2 clans.
And for gods sake read it properly - it says the necessities of LIFE are (blah).
Food, clothes, sheltar relate to life not necessity or how important things must be to be necessary. LOL!
And still noone, not the admins, or the ban whores camp have come up with any reason whatsoever as to why allowing a player to compete in two adjacent divisions is a bad idea. most just choosing to talk about football or get dictionaries out or talk about the other minor offtopic points.
The only things they can say is that I dont like whores, or everyone else is against them. The fact that whores would probably get banned in a vote proves nothing. It just proves that the prejudice against whores is widespread, and that the witch hunt to evict them from the league would succeed. It doesnt make it right - far from it. Maybe Gimp can research the origins of witch hunt for us and tell us exactly why that is.
Snow, im deadly serious when I say "its only a game" I'm not taking saying that lightly. But the league is trying to use a rule that is forcing some players not to play games with their friends in the league anymore, and which may result in them having to leave that clan because they dont get to play any games. I think thats absolutely disgusting. So yes "its only a game". Quit over legislating, this is supposed to be a league for people to have fun in.
It does not affect me if there are whores or not in the league, but I look at the situation and in principle i see it is wrong to punish people who have done nothing wrong, when I have suggested a way that allows legitimate whoring but stops the evil whoring which you are seeking to stop.
You are totally ignoring my suggestion and still persuing a blanket ban on all whores, which leads me to believe the rule is being passed because of prejudice rather than doing things right.
I'm still totally open minded about the situation. Why dont you try and convince me that a blanket ban on whores is right. You can do that by:
Explaing to me what exactly dispell or others did that people object to. (no flames tho
)Explaining to me how a blanket ban on whores stops that.
Explaining to me why a blanket ban on whores is better than what I have suggested.
Explaining to me what exactly is fundamentally wrong with being in 2 clans.
Giving me a squillion quid.
O
old.Gimp
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- #33
Ban Whores
SYD have it your own way, join as many clans as you want. In fact, I'm gonna join as many clans as I can, who cares.
Any clans interested in an average off scout/med on cable icq me on 23312740, currently in RA playing in uktfcl, bwtfcl, and etfcl. Will join any clan.
Thanks.
SYD have it your own way, join as many clans as you want. In fact, I'm gonna join as many clans as I can, who cares.
Any clans interested in an average off scout/med on cable icq me on 23312740, currently in RA playing in uktfcl, bwtfcl, and etfcl. Will join any clan.
Thanks.
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Atomic Rammer
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- #34
So youre not interested in:
Explaing to me what exactly dispell or others did that people object to. (no flames tho )
Explaining to me how a blanket ban on whores stops that.
Explaining to me why a blanket ban on whores is better than what I have suggested.
Explaining to me what exactly is fundamentally wrong with being in 2 clans.
Giving me a squillion quid.
Explaing to me what exactly dispell or others did that people object to. (no flames tho )
Explaining to me how a blanket ban on whores stops that.
Explaining to me why a blanket ban on whores is better than what I have suggested.
Explaining to me what exactly is fundamentally wrong with being in 2 clans.
Giving me a squillion quid.
O
old.SuicidalTart
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- #35
Snow: "A&I are a serious clan"
are j00 kidding me?????
are j00 kidding me?????
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old.[UESC]Si
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- #36
Speaking from another leagues/admins point of view here sydeereal (fooking hard name to type btw ). Sadly I don't know what clan you're from mate so I don't know how many leagues you're clan is in. To be honest this is basically a majority vs a minority. There are more people who dislike people who play for loads of clans (loads = 2 btw ), mainly because people like to know they are playing a clan, every clan is specific, has its own charachter if you will. When people start to blur these boundies between each clans specific personality then clan members start to get uncomfatable (sp?), they dislike the fact that part of another clan is within the clan they are playing, I suppose in our minds (as I am one of the people who dislike whores, not hate, but just don't like the idea of it) it feels like you are playing 2 clans and that somehow they might be better. I dunno if this is sounding like bollocks to anyone else but it is to me . But you get what I mean, people just dislike the fact that the essence of the clan is somehow being violated by these whores.
"But the league is trying to use a rule that is forcing some players not to play games with their friends in the league anymore, and which may result in them having to leave that clan because they dont get to play any games."
Thats a fair enough comment mate, every league is based primarily on fun, as its a game. Yet you can not just think purely about yourself (as I suppose the people that dislike the whores can't) and want to play in lots of league games, this to other people makes the game unfun (that a word?) and as more people find whores "unfun" than people people who find it fun, it is banned.
A simple solution for the whores as I see it at the moment is this:
BWTFCL and UKTFCL don't allow you to be in 2 clans that play in the league.
GWTFCL allows one merc thats on webpage.
Therefore surely the easy way to get round this and make everyone happy (including yourself), oh and lets not forget that most of the top clans which im sure you want to be whoring for are in these leagues (ETFCL don't count cos ody is a hoe and I don't know what is happening with GITFCL but I'm sure they will have a similar rule to the rest of the UK leagues). But ya to get round it all and keep everyone happy is why not just be in a different clan for each league? Thats still going to be well 1 game for BWTFCL, 2 for UKTFCL, and theoretically 2 for GWTFCL as you can be in 2 clans, thats 5 games a week, surely more than enough for one person? And let me just stress again that most of the top clans play in all 3 leagues therefore meaning you get to play all your friends at one point or another.
So perhaps the admins of the various leagues don't please the whores with this rule, but we must in some cases think of the majority. I hope me suggestion means you get the quota of games you need
Si
). Sadly I don't know what clan you're from mate so I don't know how many leagues you're clan is in. To be honest this is basically a majority vs a minority. There are more people who dislike people who play for loads of clans (loads = 2 btw ), mainly because people like to know they are playing a clan, every clan is specific, has its own charachter if you will. When people start to blur these boundies between each clans specific personality then clan members start to get uncomfatable (sp?), they dislike the fact that part of another clan is within the clan they are playing, I suppose in our minds (as I am one of the people who dislike whores, not hate, but just don't like the idea of it) it feels like you are playing 2 clans and that somehow they might be better. I dunno if this is sounding like bollocks to anyone else but it is to me . But you get what I mean, people just dislike the fact that the essence of the clan is somehow being violated by these whores. "But the league is trying to use a rule that is forcing some players not to play games with their friends in the league anymore, and which may result in them having to leave that clan because they dont get to play any games."
Thats a fair enough comment mate, every league is based primarily on fun, as its a game. Yet you can not just think purely about yourself (as I suppose the people that dislike the whores can't) and want to play in lots of league games, this to other people makes the game unfun (that a word?) and as more people find whores "unfun" than people people who find it fun, it is banned.
A simple solution for the whores as I see it at the moment is this:
BWTFCL and UKTFCL don't allow you to be in 2 clans that play in the league.
GWTFCL allows one merc thats on webpage.
Therefore surely the easy way to get round this and make everyone happy (including yourself), oh and lets not forget that most of the top clans which im sure you want to be whoring for are in these leagues (ETFCL don't count cos ody is a hoe
and I don't know what is happening with GITFCL but I'm sure they will have a similar rule to the rest of the UK leagues). But ya to get round it all and keep everyone happy is why not just be in a different clan for each league? Thats still going to be well 1 game for BWTFCL, 2 for UKTFCL, and theoretically 2 for GWTFCL as you can be in 2 clans, thats 5 games a week, surely more than enough for one person? And let me just stress again that most of the top clans play in all 3 leagues therefore meaning you get to play all your friends at one point or another.So perhaps the admins of the various leagues don't please the whores with this rule, but we must in some cases think of the majority. I hope me suggestion means you get the quota of games you need
Si
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Atomic Rammer
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Nice post Si
What I'm getting from you is that you personally and maybe a lot of other people out there have a dislike of whores for some reason you cant quite define precisely.
Its kind of an irrational fear,dislike,prejudice against whores - to generalise.
When you say that I cant just think about myself, you make a somewhat mechanical assumption that my desire is more games so I join more clans.
I'm thinking that perhaps being a member of more clans is not about the number of games but the number of social groups you belong to online (perhaps they're friends offline too). So that fact that I play more games is not because I am thinking of my own needs but a natural consequence of having friends who both play TFC in bwtfcl.
From that point of view it is only the people with irrational dislike of whores who are thinking of themselves. Why should I be stopped from playing with my friends because they dont like whores?
Which brings me back to my compromise suggestion:
You may play in 2 adjacent divisions.
This restricts you to 2 clans maximum, keeps you from invading lower skill level divisions, no opposition team will see you twice in the season for 2 different clans.
What can a whore possibly do to upset another team aside from actually being a whore?
What I'm getting from you is that you personally and maybe a lot of other people out there have a dislike of whores for some reason you cant quite define precisely.
Its kind of an irrational fear,dislike,prejudice against whores - to generalise.
When you say that I cant just think about myself, you make a somewhat mechanical assumption that my desire is more games so I join more clans.
I'm thinking that perhaps being a member of more clans is not about the number of games but the number of social groups you belong to online (perhaps they're friends offline too). So that fact that I play more games is not because I am thinking of my own needs but a natural consequence of having friends who both play TFC in bwtfcl.
From that point of view it is only the people with irrational dislike of whores who are thinking of themselves. Why should I be stopped from playing with my friends because they dont like whores?
Which brings me back to my compromise suggestion:
You may play in 2 adjacent divisions.
This restricts you to 2 clans maximum, keeps you from invading lower skill level divisions, no opposition team will see you twice in the season for 2 different clans.
What can a whore possibly do to upset another team aside from actually being a whore?
F
fade-
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- #38
1) Why do so many ppl seem to want all the leagues to be identical, whats the point? just have one big league if thats what u want. Its the sort of Euro crappy logic that says bannans have to be straght to be sold in the EU (true!). BWUKGWETFCL?
2) Admins are usualy bussy ppl and wouldn't have time to be in 2 clans, plus you have to be a certain type of person to want to be an admin so maybe no surprise they may think alike (no offence.
3) Dual clanning hasn't hurt S2!
4) There IS an easy way to stop "evil-whores" with some sort of authorisation by an admin (I'll take on the job if the admins think its to much work).
5) Dual clanning is a big thing to the ppl who do it, I LIKE being in 2 clans. When is just seems to be some minnor point to the ppl who don't like it!
6) There is no easy way to police banning dual-clanners so it still wouldn't stop the unholsum element.
7) There has been no sign of compramise from the ban-whores I think that says somthing in its self.
8) Ppl ban things way to easly, its one of the big problems in socity in my opinion.
9) Don't be to quick to copy democracy its a good start but its still got lots of problems again IMO.
10) I call a ceasefire! May the peace talks begin!
fAde-
2) Admins are usualy bussy ppl and wouldn't have time to be in 2 clans, plus you have to be a certain type of person to want to be an admin so maybe no surprise they may think alike (no offence
.3) Dual clanning hasn't hurt S2!
4) There IS an easy way to stop "evil-whores" with some sort of authorisation by an admin (I'll take on the job if the admins think its to much work).
5) Dual clanning is a big thing to the ppl who do it, I LIKE being in 2 clans. When is just seems to be some minnor point to the ppl who don't like it!
6) There is no easy way to police banning dual-clanners so it still wouldn't stop the unholsum element.
7) There has been no sign of compramise from the ban-whores I think that says somthing in its self.
8) Ppl ban things way to easly, its one of the big problems in socity in my opinion.
9) Don't be to quick to copy democracy its a good start but its still got lots of problems again IMO.
10) I call a ceasefire! May the peace talks begin!
fAde-
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old.[UESC]Si
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- #39
1. We dont want to be identical we just all use good ideas. Therefore better leagues.
2. Lonegun is in DW who play shit loads of games
3. No comment as ive no idea
4. and 6. Surely u contradict ureself, if its hard to enforce a no merc ban then y do u say its easy?
5. It is a big thing judging by some of the reactions from ppl here.
7. Would you wish to compramise with the devil?
8. I know for a fact UKTFCL didnt just wake up one morning and go "yep ban whores", we discussed it, and I very much beleive that the BWTFCL admins did same thing, discussed it and came to a conclusion.
9. Well if we dont have a democracy that leaves us with communism and dictatorship dont it? although communism is good in theory...
10 Fook off
Nah fade and bloke whos name begins in S but is too hard to remember (sorry) have a good point but tbh I can;t see you being accomadated for in either league, UKTFCL because we aint like BWTFCL in format and BWTFCL because much like UKTFCL they dislike whores,
2. Lonegun is in DW who play shit loads of games
3. No comment as ive no idea
4. and 6. Surely u contradict ureself, if its hard to enforce a no merc ban then y do u say its easy?
5. It is a big thing judging by some of the reactions from ppl here.
7. Would you wish to compramise with the devil?
8. I know for a fact UKTFCL didnt just wake up one morning and go "yep ban whores", we discussed it, and I very much beleive that the BWTFCL admins did same thing, discussed it and came to a conclusion.
9. Well if we dont have a democracy that leaves us with communism and dictatorship dont it?
although communism is good in theory...10 Fook off
Nah fade and bloke whos name begins in S but is too hard to remember (sorry) have a good point but tbh I can;t see you being accomadated for in either league, UKTFCL because we aint like BWTFCL in format and BWTFCL because much like UKTFCL they dislike whores,
F
fade-
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- #40
1) its not a good idea (soon better is going to mean identical )
2) I was generalising (u could only give me one, I think my point was made, plz don't give me ne more)
4) is for the dual clanners that follow the rules...
5) some ppl just like to argue, I don't think they are as bothered as they seem (IMHO).
7) eeeer (odd person)
8) I think the ppl who want to dual clan are more into playing the game and not doing the rounds on the MBs, I know I am.
9) Its not multiple choise! Not just A B or C
10) bah
11) Why should it be stoped with out ne good reason just beacuse some ppl don't like it when it does no harm!?
fAde-
(soon better is going to mean identical )2) I was generalising (u could only give me one, I think my point was made, plz don't give me ne more
)4) is for the dual clanners that follow the rules...
5) some ppl just like to argue, I don't think they are as bothered as they seem (IMHO).
7) eeeer (odd person)
8) I think the ppl who want to dual clan are more into playing the game and not doing the rounds on the MBs, I know I am.
9) Its not multiple choise! Not just A B or C
10) bah
11) Why should it be stoped with out ne good reason just beacuse some ppl don't like it when it does no harm!?
fAde-
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old.Alexia
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- #41
my opinion here... will try to use a proper english but arf... sometimes it is hard
you are all talking from an individual point of view. Which is fine. But the main purpose of this league is to have most people happy playing in. And the more they are (we extended s3 to 160 clans instead of 128 because there was a lot more people that wanted to join) the better it is.
If you consider a league as a whole... clans are entering a competition. They are having tactics, doing praccies and so on to improve tp, skills etc etc... They are happy when being promoted. Don't tell me you like to loose I won't believe it.
So... regarding multiclanning... if you consider 1 multi per clan, out of 32 clans in prem it means 32 people that could be in div 1 clans... so as an effect 32 people less playing in div1 clans just because there are some multiclans. It can even mean 2-3 clans less... staying in division 2 because there is no more space available in div1.
So to please some people there are more unpleased.
This is just an example of course.
We are not strongly against multiclan for the sake of it. Everybody can have his/her own opinions on it. But when you come down to the number of people that can be in this league... we've already extended it but this will be limited.
You are free to play in other leagues with other clans. Why wanting to play in BWTFCL with different clans ?
This is roughly a debate between individual liberty and collective freedom.
In French we say "la liberté s'arrête là où commence celle d'autrui". (vvvvvv rough translation : freedom stops where is starting others')
you are all talking from an individual point of view. Which is fine. But the main purpose of this league is to have most people happy playing in. And the more they are (we extended s3 to 160 clans instead of 128 because there was a lot more people that wanted to join) the better it is.
If you consider a league as a whole... clans are entering a competition. They are having tactics, doing praccies and so on to improve tp, skills etc etc... They are happy when being promoted. Don't tell me you like to loose I won't believe it.
So... regarding multiclanning... if you consider 1 multi per clan, out of 32 clans in prem it means 32 people that could be in div 1 clans... so as an effect 32 people less playing in div1 clans just because there are some multiclans. It can even mean 2-3 clans less... staying in division 2 because there is no more space available in div1.
So to please some people there are more unpleased.
This is just an example of course.
We are not strongly against multiclan for the sake of it. Everybody can have his/her own opinions on it. But when you come down to the number of people that can be in this league... we've already extended it but this will be limited.
You are free to play in other leagues with other clans. Why wanting to play in BWTFCL with different clans ?
This is roughly a debate between individual liberty and collective freedom.
In French we say "la liberté s'arrête là où commence celle d'autrui". (vvvvvv rough translation : freedom stops where is starting others')
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old.TGC Snow
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- #42
Si makes a point which i think everyone else just ignored completely. He said that, while TFC is for fun, and dual-clanners are doing it for their own enjoyment, it detracts from the enjoyment of their opponents (at least i think that's what he meant).
When TGC were in the UKTFCL ladder a long time ago, when whoring was very big, I really f**king hated playing against some crap clan who'd managed to get one awesome player, and then win the game.
The comment about Dispel was not an attack on his character, but when someone plays for 20 clans, i think "evil" whore is acceptable tag
Another point Si makes is that this is a majority vs. a minority. If the dual-clanners are absolutely dead-set on fighting us on this one, we will conduct a vote. And it will undoubtedly come out in our favour.
Finally, Syd, it annoys me that every time we explain why we dislike dual-clanning, and come up with perfectly valid reasons, u keep saying "bla bla bla why can't u come up with good reasons" and "you dislike it, but u don't know why". I HAVE EXPLAINED SEVERAL TIMES NOW =WHY= I DISLIKE IT, THANK YOU.
Finally finally, Fade (my deputy leader, lol): we're not trying to be like uktfcl or gwtfcl. when u see Season 3, u will realise that the formats of each league are unique. We would be fools to run exactly the same system, as it would just end up as a competition between the leagues. All we have is a rule which has been present in many leagues for a very long time. Lots of leagues use the same maps, u're saying that is copying???
When TGC were in the UKTFCL ladder a long time ago, when whoring was very big, I really f**king hated playing against some crap clan who'd managed to get one awesome player, and then win the game.
The comment about Dispel was not an attack on his character, but when someone plays for 20 clans, i think "evil" whore is acceptable tag
Another point Si makes is that this is a majority vs. a minority. If the dual-clanners are absolutely dead-set on fighting us on this one, we will conduct a vote. And it will undoubtedly come out in our favour.
Finally, Syd, it annoys me that every time we explain why we dislike dual-clanning, and come up with perfectly valid reasons, u keep saying "bla bla bla why can't u come up with good reasons" and "you dislike it, but u don't know why". I HAVE EXPLAINED SEVERAL TIMES NOW =WHY= I DISLIKE IT, THANK YOU.
Finally finally, Fade (my deputy leader, lol): we're not trying to be like uktfcl or gwtfcl. when u see Season 3, u will realise that the formats of each league are unique. We would be fools to run exactly the same system, as it would just end up as a competition between the leagues. All we have is a rule which has been present in many leagues for a very long time. Lots of leagues use the same maps, u're saying that is copying???
F
fade-
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- #43
I wasn't trying to say all the leagues are the same just don't be so quick to copy each other or we may end up with that one day.
Maybe this would not be such an issue if we knew how many ppl actualy want to dual-clan in S3. If it was only 5 or 6 ppl who wanted to do it I dout ne1 would even notice.
So who else wants to do it? or is it just me?
fAde-
Maybe this would not be such an issue if we knew how many ppl actualy want to dual-clan in S3. If it was only 5 or 6 ppl who wanted to do it I dout ne1 would even notice.
So who else wants to do it? or is it just me?
fAde-
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Atomic Rammer
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- #44
The point being snow that yes you have all stated reasons why you dont like whores, but none of them are GOOD enough.
By that I mean that none of them are good enough to justify carrying on with the total ban when some sensible compromises have been put on the table and they have just been discounted without any justification. In fact noone has had the balls to even discuss them. That is totally WRONG. As in right from wrong, not merely incorrect.
Numerous people have just said "I dont like whores"
Thats not good enough
Bigfoot mentions playing in lower divisions where you outclass the people there
The rule I suggested stops that.
Some people mentioned people joining loads of clans
My rule stops that too, so does Fades suggestion that he police the whores.
Some people have said they get unnerved if they keep seeing the same player over again for many different clans.
My rule stops that. Fade could police that too if it was unwelcome.
Alexia suggests that if there was a whore in each prem clan and they were banned then there would be more room for clans to join. I dont agree. That would be true if each clan consisted of 7 players and a whore, but in nearly all cases the whore just increases the number of subs a clan has. If they were banned the effect would be absorbed by subs. And even if she were totally right, it would only be a problem if there were whores in numbers, and already we see that whore numbers are extremely low.
So you see noone has come up with any reasons that are GOOD enough to not even consider the alternatives.
I've thought this issue through in my head and I'm confident that it is wrong to just ban them outright. I've had the conviction to challenge every single point that anyone has raised to the contrary, and I look back and I see that none of you have got the conviction yourselves to tackle any of the serious points that I raise.
By that I mean that none of them are good enough to justify carrying on with the total ban when some sensible compromises have been put on the table and they have just been discounted without any justification. In fact noone has had the balls to even discuss them. That is totally WRONG. As in right from wrong, not merely incorrect.
Numerous people have just said "I dont like whores"
Thats not good enough
Bigfoot mentions playing in lower divisions where you outclass the people there
The rule I suggested stops that.
Some people mentioned people joining loads of clans
My rule stops that too, so does Fades suggestion that he police the whores.
Some people have said they get unnerved if they keep seeing the same player over again for many different clans.
My rule stops that. Fade could police that too if it was unwelcome.
Alexia suggests that if there was a whore in each prem clan and they were banned then there would be more room for clans to join. I dont agree. That would be true if each clan consisted of 7 players and a whore, but in nearly all cases the whore just increases the number of subs a clan has. If they were banned the effect would be absorbed by subs. And even if she were totally right, it would only be a problem if there were whores in numbers, and already we see that whore numbers are extremely low.
So you see noone has come up with any reasons that are GOOD enough to not even consider the alternatives.
I've thought this issue through in my head and I'm confident that it is wrong to just ban them outright. I've had the conviction to challenge every single point that anyone has raised to the contrary, and I look back and I see that none of you have got the conviction yourselves to tackle any of the serious points that I raise.
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old.DeerHunter
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- #45
Imagine this: 2 Div2 clans are battling it out for a chance to win their division. They're very evenly matched and enjoy playing each other because every game is close. Then one clan decides to take on a Div1 whore, because not only will this profit the clan but the Div1 whore thinks he'll enjoy pounding lesser players into the dirt. Now this is all good and fine for ClanA who can now easily win the match with their star player, but imagine how bitter it makes ClanB feel once they find out about this. ClanB would rather play fairly and win a division using it's own players and developing team tactics, rather than employing outside help.
Now i'm not saying that 1 player can make all the difference, but i have seen such tactics ruin games before. It does leave ClanB extreamely bitter and then they'll end up complaining for weeks on end until they decide to leave the league because they think it's a farce.
Surely the initial purpose of a league is to determine the best teamwork of a clan in the means of becoming the best clan at its specific game in the community of that contest. How exactly can you justify using higher calibre players to win your matches when surely you shouldn't need to if you're getting into the spirit of the league. In my, and almost all the other Admin's point of view, it's defeating the whole idea behind the league system. It's shifting the fairness of games and therefore it has become AGAINST THE RULES, and it will stay that way.
[Edited by DeerHunter on 18-12-00 at 06:14]
Now i'm not saying that 1 player can make all the difference, but i have seen such tactics ruin games before. It does leave ClanB extreamely bitter and then they'll end up complaining for weeks on end until they decide to leave the league because they think it's a farce.
Surely the initial purpose of a league is to determine the best teamwork of a clan in the means of becoming the best clan at its specific game in the community of that contest. How exactly can you justify using higher calibre players to win your matches when surely you shouldn't need to if you're getting into the spirit of the league. In my, and almost all the other Admin's point of view, it's defeating the whole idea behind the league system. It's shifting the fairness of games and therefore it has become AGAINST THE RULES, and it will stay that way.
[Edited by DeerHunter on 18-12-00 at 06:14]
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old.Mr War
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u f00, its whores not mercs, total llama monkey
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old.DeerHunter
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WTF Warspite? I was...errr...talking about whores!
[Edited by DeerHunter on 18-12-00 at 06:17]
[Edited by DeerHunter on 18-12-00 at 06:17]
M
Mörgoth
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Good lord, I didn't check this board for 3 days and look at all the posts. OK first, thanks Sydeereal for:
1) Voicing all the thoughts I have on dual-clanning (emphasis dual).
2) Coming up with a solution.
Not one of you have come up with a good reason why dual-clanning should not be allowed. See Syd's previous post - sums up everything he's said so far.
Now on to my personal situation. Like I said in my first post, HK and GOD games have *never* conflicted. HK play *all* their games at the weekend (except GWTFCL games on tuesday/wednesday). GOD play *all* their games on thursday nights. Thus in this situation, Snow's point of differing levels of skill on different nights in a lower division clan is made irrevelant. Syd has a solution to this anyway, with the adjacent division rule suggestion.
Even apart from that, I'm not a "super" player. Believe me, I'm hanging on to a spot in the HK attack by my fingernails. And while I, admittedly, am probably the best player GOD has, that is certainly not by far, by any means. I like playing with both clans, and both the guys in HK and the guys/gals in GOD are great peeps to play with. In effect, Syd's theory of playing with mates from work comes into play.
Finally, how *are* you going to ban this? A member of the HK attack, JFK, has a brother who plays in GF5, called Gomez. They use the same PC to play, thus they have the same WON ID. Are you telling me that if GF5 hadn't recently split from TFC competitions, and if GF5 and HK were both in this league, and if the admins actually bothered their asses checking *every* server log to check for dual-clanning, that in that case HK and GF5 would both be kicked from the league because JFK was "dual-clanning"?
There is no way for you to enforce it. Apart from that, there has not been one GOOD reason raised as to *why* you should enforce it/make it a rule.
Like someone mentioned, there are evidently very few "nice" dual-clanners, since so many people are against it. But since people like me actually LIKE playing in two clans, and completely understand the fact that both clans may want our services 100% of the time, why won't you allow for us?
Finally, GOD only play in the BWTFCL. HK have just joined the BWTFCL, and may be leaving the UKTFCL due to an unsatisfactory season 5 from our point of view. It's not my fault that this rule affects me! I joined GOD *because* they only play in the BW league, and because (at the time) HK were not. At the time, dual-clanning was even allowed.
And if you lot are *still* going to insist on banning dual-clanning, then fine, you are depriving me and a select few others of properly enjoying our TFC experience.
Sorry bout the long post btw.
1) Voicing all the thoughts I have on dual-clanning (emphasis dual).
2) Coming up with a solution.
Not one of you have come up with a good reason why dual-clanning should not be allowed. See Syd's previous post - sums up everything he's said so far.
Now on to my personal situation. Like I said in my first post, HK and GOD games have *never* conflicted. HK play *all* their games at the weekend (except GWTFCL games on tuesday/wednesday). GOD play *all* their games on thursday nights. Thus in this situation, Snow's point of differing levels of skill on different nights in a lower division clan is made irrevelant. Syd has a solution to this anyway, with the adjacent division rule suggestion.
Even apart from that, I'm not a "super" player. Believe me, I'm hanging on to a spot in the HK attack by my fingernails.
And while I, admittedly, am probably the best player GOD has, that is certainly not by far, by any means. I like playing with both clans, and both the guys in HK and the guys/gals in GOD are great peeps to play with. In effect, Syd's theory of playing with mates from work comes into play.Finally, how *are* you going to ban this? A member of the HK attack, JFK, has a brother who plays in GF5, called Gomez. They use the same PC to play, thus they have the same WON ID. Are you telling me that if GF5 hadn't recently split from TFC competitions, and if GF5 and HK were both in this league, and if the admins actually bothered their asses checking *every* server log to check for dual-clanning, that in that case HK and GF5 would both be kicked from the league because JFK was "dual-clanning"?
There is no way for you to enforce it. Apart from that, there has not been one GOOD reason raised as to *why* you should enforce it/make it a rule.
Like someone mentioned, there are evidently very few "nice" dual-clanners, since so many people are against it. But since people like me actually LIKE playing in two clans, and completely understand the fact that both clans may want our services 100% of the time, why won't you allow for us?
Finally, GOD only play in the BWTFCL. HK have just joined the BWTFCL, and may be leaving the UKTFCL due to an unsatisfactory season 5 from our point of view. It's not my fault that this rule affects me! I joined GOD *because* they only play in the BW league, and because (at the time) HK were not. At the time, dual-clanning was even allowed.
And if you lot are *still* going to insist on banning dual-clanning, then fine, you are depriving me and a select few others of properly enjoying our TFC experience.
Sorry bout the long post btw.
F
fade-
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see Syd
fAde-
fAde-
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old.Mr War
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i was in RNK, and i was in FUNK at the same time. FUNK are wp only, so no one is bothered about that. if funk were in the same league as rnk when i was in them, i wouldnt have played for both clans, simply because there is no need. most clans can get by without a single player, and im sure there arent that many Whore clans around who have every player in 2+ different clans. they'd be effected greatly, and if your clan cant field 8 players cuz 1 player dual clanned, then u obviuosly dont have a reliable clan. cant be arsed to think of anything else, cuz im knackered
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old.TGC Snow
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1) Syd's solutions are not workable - we spend most of time running our own clans, reffing matches, sorting out disputes, etc. etc. and not even viruz has the time to enforce these rules which just complicate matters, hence the "blanket ban".
2) Like I already said, there are dual-clanners who I don't have that much of a problem with. ppl like Fade + Morgoth come under that category. But as i said in (1), there is no easy way of distinguishing between these, and the ones who DO affect the league in the ways previously described.
3) I think saying that we are depriving u of your TFC experience isn't really gonna work... i have a perfectly good TFC experience with one clan, and if i did want to play for two, i would join a Wireplay/UKTFCL clan.
2) Like I already said, there are dual-clanners who I don't have that much of a problem with. ppl like Fade + Morgoth come under that category. But as i said in (1), there is no easy way of distinguishing between these, and the ones who DO affect the league in the ways previously described.
3) I think saying that we are depriving u of your TFC experience isn't really gonna work... i have a perfectly good TFC experience with one clan, and if i did want to play for two, i would join a Wireplay/UKTFCL clan.
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old.[DW]LoneGun
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Got to agree with snow if u want to play in more than one clan join one that is in http://uktfcl.far2cool.com or WPTFCL not sure of url for that. You will also find that both of these leagues operate a no dual clanning rule.
LoneGun
UKTFCL Head Admin
LoneGun
UKTFCL Head Admin
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old.[DW]LoneGun
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see these threads too
http://forums.far2cool.com/topic.as...-+decision+pls&Forum_Title=General+Discussion
and
http://forums.far2cool.com/topic.as...=Dual+Clanners&Forum_Title=General+Discussion
these are UKTFCL discussions from about 3 months ago, thought they might help.
LG
http://forums.far2cool.com/topic.as...-+decision+pls&Forum_Title=General+Discussion
and
http://forums.far2cool.com/topic.as...=Dual+Clanners&Forum_Title=General+Discussion
these are UKTFCL discussions from about 3 months ago, thought they might help.
LG
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old.=BC=Revz
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Well look at me posting up LG's rear
SYDEEREAL and Morgoth both bring up very good points about dual-clanning/multi-clanning. I didn't manage to read all the posts in massive detail because it would have taken me all lunch time, so forgive me if I cover some ground we've already gone over.
1. Dual-clanning or whatever you want to call it is being banned because (afaik) the majority of people want it banned. It is actually that simple When the majority of people want something, the people serving them (yes serve me you admin scum ) either comply or risk a riot.
2. There are loads of reasons against it, most of which come down to it being unfair to batter newbie clans to pieces and win because of using "hired talent". By all means come and merc against =BC=, we won't complain at all but thats because we are in the situation where an opponent (generally a very good clan) will actually WORSEN their team by including an unfamiliar merc. The flipside is true for clans in lower divisions.
3. Football analogies blah blah, its only a game blah blah, its not a game really blah blah It depends what you are in it for. I'm sure I could have fun playing for a div 4 clan and getting consistent scores of 74/0 on defence, but what does that achieve? I gain the most fun from competitive games (even if we lose) not from proving that I have spent over a year of my life playing one game online until I'm better than a few people at it.
SYDEEREAL and Morgoth both bring up very good points about dual-clanning/multi-clanning. I didn't manage to read all the posts in massive detail because it would have taken me all lunch time, so forgive me if I cover some ground we've already gone over.
1. Dual-clanning or whatever you want to call it is being banned because (afaik) the majority of people want it banned. It is actually that simple
When the majority of people want something, the people serving them (yes serve me you admin scum ) either comply or risk a riot.2. There are loads of reasons against it, most of which come down to it being unfair to batter newbie clans to pieces and win because of using "hired talent". By all means come and merc against =BC=, we won't complain at all but thats because we are in the situation where an opponent (generally a very good clan) will actually WORSEN their team by including an unfamiliar merc. The flipside is true for clans in lower divisions.
3. Football analogies blah blah, its only a game blah blah, its not a game really blah blah
It depends what you are in it for. I'm sure I could have fun playing for a div 4 clan and getting consistent scores of 74/0 on defence, but what does that achieve? I gain the most fun from competitive games (even if we lose) not from proving that I have spent over a year of my life playing one game online until I'm better than a few people at it.
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Atomic Rammer
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I applaud snow for talking about proposed ammendments but predictably he makes a bad job of it.
How is saying "No whores" and checking that there are no whores in any division, any different from saying "only be in 2 clans in adjacent divisions" and then checking they arent in more? Time wise they are roughly the same job, and I have to remind you that Fade offered to be whore police!! (vice squad ?!) so none of your time is required.
Ta to LoneGun for digging out those links, the main discussion is in the second link, and for the benefit of the lazy I shall say that the discussion here encompases that debate and more imho, although they do discuss another issue of people having a "brother" who shares their PC and hence has same wonID hehe.
The current favourite argument seems to be the issue of "hired hands" influencing the outcome of divisions etc from revs and deerhunter. So let me shed some light on that for you.
You want to ban whores to prevent hired hands situations. Allow me to point out that whores are the least of your worries, All the following are equally a potential problem for causing disruption of this type.
Whores who play for 2 or more bwtfcl teams. (who u want to ban)
Whores who are from a clan in a different league altogether.
Someone who whores ander an alias and is in 2 bwtfcl clans
Someone who leaves a bwtfcl clan temporarily to join another, specifically to try and get a certain other team beat (perhaps a title rival).
Rogue players who have a grudge against a certain team and want to help make them not win a division.
Simply good temporarily unclanned player with nothing better to do.
So trying to ban all bwtfcl whores is next to pointless in this context. Anyone determined to get hired hands can do it, and anyone determined to be a hired hand can do it. By saying that people cant OPENLY play for 2 teams in bwtfcl, is making only a token restriction on it because there is a wealth of eligible players to choose from that you cant stop from causing the trouble. And at the same time you are being particularly unfair to 'good' whores like fade and morg for the sake of making a rule with no teeth to do its job.
If you want to do it right may I make some more suggestions. To curb the temporary hired hands situations, its not about banning whores, its about banning temporary team changes. As a start you could say that teams should declare their members at the start of the season and only use those players. The roster could change mid season for any additional members recruited. Thats a much better deterrant and its done without even mentioning whores. It targets only the wrongdoers, be they whores or not.
If you want to try and justify a blanket ban on whores, then you have to be in control of most, if not all eligible players that could potentially be in 2 teams. That would mean all the major leagues would have to cooperate and say - if you join another team in any league then both leagues will punish you. (yes a stupid suggestion!) This would also mean cooperation if any enforcement was to be done, using a central wonID database. EEEK!
So as I see it, its wrong because:
The rule doesn't stop wrongdoers, alternatives are better and dont single out only whores as possible culprits.
No reasons mentioned are good enough not to consider the proposed alternatives which so far only snow has attempted to do.
How is saying "No whores" and checking that there are no whores in any division, any different from saying "only be in 2 clans in adjacent divisions" and then checking they arent in more? Time wise they are roughly the same job, and I have to remind you that Fade offered to be whore police!! (vice squad ?!) so none of your time is required.
Ta to LoneGun for digging out those links, the main discussion is in the second link, and for the benefit of the lazy I shall say that the discussion here encompases that debate and more imho, although they do discuss another issue of people having a "brother" who shares their PC and hence has same wonID hehe.
The current favourite argument seems to be the issue of "hired hands" influencing the outcome of divisions etc from revs and deerhunter. So let me shed some light on that for you.
You want to ban whores to prevent hired hands situations. Allow me to point out that whores are the least of your worries, All the following are equally a potential problem for causing disruption of this type.
Whores who play for 2 or more bwtfcl teams. (who u want to ban)
Whores who are from a clan in a different league altogether.
Someone who whores ander an alias and is in 2 bwtfcl clans
Someone who leaves a bwtfcl clan temporarily to join another, specifically to try and get a certain other team beat (perhaps a title rival).
Rogue players who have a grudge against a certain team and want to help make them not win a division.
Simply good temporarily unclanned player with nothing better to do.
So trying to ban all bwtfcl whores is next to pointless in this context. Anyone determined to get hired hands can do it, and anyone determined to be a hired hand can do it. By saying that people cant OPENLY play for 2 teams in bwtfcl, is making only a token restriction on it because there is a wealth of eligible players to choose from that you cant stop from causing the trouble. And at the same time you are being particularly unfair to 'good' whores like fade and morg for the sake of making a rule with no teeth to do its job.
If you want to do it right may I make some more suggestions. To curb the temporary hired hands situations, its not about banning whores, its about banning temporary team changes. As a start you could say that teams should declare their members at the start of the season and only use those players. The roster could change mid season for any additional members recruited. Thats a much better deterrant and its done without even mentioning whores. It targets only the wrongdoers, be they whores or not.
If you want to try and justify a blanket ban on whores, then you have to be in control of most, if not all eligible players that could potentially be in 2 teams. That would mean all the major leagues would have to cooperate and say - if you join another team in any league then both leagues will punish you. (yes a stupid suggestion!) This would also mean cooperation if any enforcement was to be done, using a central wonID database. EEEK!
So as I see it, its wrong because:
The rule doesn't stop wrongdoers, alternatives are better and dont single out only whores as possible culprits.
No reasons mentioned are good enough not to consider the proposed alternatives which so far only snow has attempted to do.
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old.=BC=Revz
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You still haven't adressed the fact that the majority of people want it this way. Like I said the admins are only doing their job by enforcing a rule the majority want.
Take a look at the restrictions some US leagues impose and you will see what REALLY tight rules look like.
Take a look at the restrictions some US leagues impose and you will see what REALLY tight rules look like.
F
fade-
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- #57
There is still no proof of this majority its still just a few outspoken ppl.
and if there were to be a vote it should be with everyone in BWTFCL not just the clan leaders (cus they don't often play for 2 clans), yes it would be a humungus task so lets compramise!
I live in a farily backward place surrounded by alot of rasism so does that mean all the black ppl should be evicted just beacuse the majority want it?!?
fAde- (hard at work)
and if there were to be a vote it should be with everyone in BWTFCL not just the clan leaders (cus they don't often play for 2 clans), yes it would be a humungus task so lets compramise!
I live in a farily backward place surrounded by alot of rasism so does that mean all the black ppl should be evicted just beacuse the majority want it?!?
fAde- (hard at work
)
T
Twinner
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- #58
Some1 said bout them acting on the majority.
so Y have'nt the clan leaders been given the chance to vote on this issue. I would not complain about the decision if there was a vote. (Also u can see if any clans have died since entering the league (it does happen).
Also seeing as the League has 130+ or something clans then u should get a large result
Also 1 of the threads on UKTFCL asked people to vote on whether there should be Dual-Clanning.
so Y have'nt the clan leaders been given the chance to vote on this issue. I would not complain about the decision if there was a vote. (Also u can see if any clans have died since entering the league (it does happen).
Also seeing as the League has 130+ or something clans then u should get a large result
Also 1 of the threads on UKTFCL asked people to vote on whether there should be Dual-Clanning.
M
Mörgoth
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Just to mention that UKTFCL vote actually...
Incidentally, I think the people who wanted no dual clanning had 16 unique votes, the people who wanted it had 15... Not exactly a majority.
But the majority issue, to me, is largely irrevelant. Using the current blanket ban, you are probably satisfying the "majority" (however large or small that is), but you are alienating the minority. The compromises suggested in this thread can work, without much extra potential work on the part of the admins, and if such compromises were introduced, you would be satisfying everyone. So why not do it? The suggested compromises prevent discontent among lower clans having to play opponents with us "super" players (hehe), so I can't see why people are so opposed to them.
The least you can do is make a one time exception for both Fade and myself, coz we're so insistent about this.
Incidentally, I think the people who wanted no dual clanning had 16 unique votes, the people who wanted it had 15... Not exactly a majority.
But the majority issue, to me, is largely irrevelant. Using the current blanket ban, you are probably satisfying the "majority" (however large or small that is), but you are alienating the minority. The compromises suggested in this thread can work, without much extra potential work on the part of the admins, and if such compromises were introduced, you would be satisfying everyone. So why not do it? The suggested compromises prevent discontent among lower clans having to play opponents with us "super" players (hehe), so I can't see why people are so opposed to them.
The least you can do is make a one time exception for both Fade and myself, coz we're so insistent about this.
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Atomic Rammer
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Revs said:
"You still haven't adressed the fact that the majority of people want it this way."
Ah, I've already said about that before, but its getting to be a pretty massive thread so here it is again:
"The fact that whores would probably get banned in a vote proves nothing. It just proves that the prejudice against whores is widespread, and that the witch hunt to evict them from the league would succeed. It doesnt make it right - far from it"
As for tight rules, the rules we are suggesting are even tighter than just banning whores, because they will address a wider problem.
We are proposing even tighter rules than the admins but fairer ones at the same time.
"You still haven't adressed the fact that the majority of people want it this way."
Ah, I've already said about that before, but its getting to be a pretty massive thread so here it is again:
"The fact that whores would probably get banned in a vote proves nothing. It just proves that the prejudice against whores is widespread, and that the witch hunt to evict them from the league would succeed. It doesnt make it right - far from it"
As for tight rules, the rules we are suggesting are even tighter than just banning whores, because they will address a wider problem.
We are proposing even tighter rules than the admins but fairer ones at the same time.
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