Rollox

[Mörgoth]

No dual clanning for S3 then.

I accept this, although being in both HK and GOD I'm completely against it, but I don't want to start up yet *another* dual clanning argument/flame. I just want to know one thing: Why, if it was allowed in season 2, is it not being allowed in season 3?

 

[old.TGC Snow]

because basically, most of the TFC community have been against it for quite a while, and a fair number of ppl did want it banned from S2.

The fact is that it needed UKTFCL's major move to ban mercs to set the ball rolling, and coz we're a bunch of Tory-boys we don't do stuff until other ppl take the risks, and we see if it works

So anyway, it's one clan, one league. If u wanna be in 2 BWTFCL clans, then tough.

 

[Atomic Rammer]

What exactly is wrong with being in 2 clans that are in 2 separate divisions?

 

[Mörgoth]

My thoughts exactly. There's not a hope in hell that HK will ever drop below division 1 (in any league), and a similar lack of hope that GOD will go above division 2 (in any league).

The simple fact is that by allowing dual clanning, you're doing no harm to any clan or player (HK is my primary clan if GOD and HK matches conflict, but this has never, ever happened so far). By disallowing it, you are pissing these people off (i.e. me) and satisfying the (IMO) idiots who go on about loyalty to a clan, and all that bullsh1t. And PLEASE don't give me any metaphors about how fans are loyal to a soccer club.

COZ SOCCER AND TFC ARE DIFFERENT.

 

[old.TGC Snow]

right morgoth

it is quite simple: when u play for 2 clans from different divisions, u =are= affecting other clans. When those 2 clans have a game at the same time, u are going to have to choose one or the other. This (a) affects your "second" clan, and (b) gives your "second" clan's opponents an easier game (assuming u are of a higher standard). This in turn affects any clans who the opponents of the "second" clan go above by winning (u keeping up with me? ).

Finally, we don't want it in this league. Stop moaning - don't u fookin dare even try breaking this rule, or both clans are out of the league, and it's all your fault.

P.S. I couldn't give a flying fuck if it pisses off people like u, and the people who talk about loyalty to a clan are not idiots, they just understand the point of playing for clans. If u want to be a twat, go play on public servers.

[Edited by TGC Snow on 09-12-00 at 21:17]

 

[old.jonna -[ND]-Napalm]

dual clanning

woohoo.....me first post.....just a word on the dual clanning situation..i agree completely it shouldnt be allowed full stop wh0r3 filled clans aint what tfc clan games are about me thinks

 

[Atomic Rammer]

Those arent really good enough reasons snow.

I dont see why it is a prob. If you are in a clan in a lower division as well and they dont mind you giving higher div clan priority what is the problem?

Can someone please spell out a GOOD reason?

 

[old.Gimp]

Ban Whores!

I hear David Beckham is helping out Burnley when he has free time from Man U.

 

[bigfoot]

Not being a TFC player i don't know whats been the standard for your game, but in Quake1/2/3 and Unreal Tournament in all the major leagues i've seen playing for 2 different clans in the league has always been classed as illegal. For example, say your a l33t Division 1 player and your m8 in Division 4 asks you to play for his clan, whilst its a Team Game your going to have an impact on the course of the game cos your skill is vastly superior to that of your average Division 4 player.

Leagues are structured on, as far as possible, a skill basis with the top clans being high up and the newer, less experienced (and mostly less skilled) being at the bottom. Dual clanning completely wrecks this idea, and as this progression is pretty relevant to the league it arguably wrecks the league too.

 

[old.TGC Snow]

do u want me to explain it again???

basically, it ruins the balance of the divisions (that is assuming Morgoth is of a higher standard than rest of GOD... if he isn't then why does he play for HK... anyway). It is unfair on other clans in GOD's division because one game they might get GOD with Morgoth, and then another team might have an easier game against GOD without Morgoth, coz he's off playing for HK.

we're not doing it to encourage clan loyalty, although i think that is something that should be encouraged. The whole point is to keep the league fair. You can still dual-clan, just not within BWTFCL.

 

[Atomic Rammer]

So let me get this straight.
The primary reason for not allowing people in 2 divisions is to discourage unbalanced teams, and preventing that team getting weakened if (for example) some good players are double booked, which results in very erratic performance.

lets say I want to play some tfc with some neighbours in my street or whatever and we form a clan for some league play, and some of us are newbies and some are good players. You are telling me fundamentally that my team is not a good idea and may wreck the league. I dont believe that for a second, and I dont think it is the leagues place to be making rules telling me who I can and cant play with.

I dont think there are queues of l33t players wanting to hammer newbies in div 4, but if I'm in a prem clan and some of my m8's are in div1, then I cant play for them or be in their clan. That just seems a tad harsh. FFS its just a game! Perhaps the league is taking itself a bit seriously.

And considering that you can still be a l33t player in some other league and play for a div 4 bwtfcl clan then the rule seems pretty pointless and ineffective and unfair for the dual clanners out there.

I totally understand that potentially you get one clan saying "ooo its not fair u had a super player on your team" but u can still have that even with the rule.
What I think is worse is that the league is trying to dictate the make up of teams. That is very saddening.

Possible compromise:
You may play in 2 adjacent divisions

 

[Twinner]

I think that comprise is good

Although I would have prefered a vote by all the clans in the league to decide it.

But I see that as unlikely as the "hostile" response from Snow will probably be reflected by the Admin team.

 

[vuz]

wow this thread grew quick
basically my personal opinion is that of wot Bigfoot said, if there was wh0ring in football [don't tell me this is completely different, I know it is, I know it could never happen in football etc] and David Beckham played for Millwall to get a few extra games as well as Man Utd then suddenly this l337 player can take on Millwall's opposition on his own and so Millwall 0wn their division
this is exactly what would happen if [DW]Tenchu suddenly started to also play for [llama clan #23124] as he could almost defend the flag on his own, and if Tenchu then asks Biggz to also come and wh0re for this llama clan then what happens?!?

Sure, in many situations it wudn't be any where near this extreme, but the point stands, all players should be in *roughly* the best clan they can get into at their current skill level, and only that clan...

umm, fuck, that doesn't make that much sense, ah bugger it, let gimp explain

 

[Atomic Rammer]

Yes but that can still happen if you have that rule or not. A good player from another league plays for llama clan.
A good player from no other league or clan plays for llama clan.

You dont explain either what is wrong with that compromise I suggested.

btw yes I'm just making a point of principle I dont want to dual clan!

 

[Atomic Rammer]

and also u said:

all players should be in *roughly* the best clan they can get into at their current skill level, and only that clan


Why should they? Who are you to tell me I should not play in a clan with my mates from work or something, some newbie some not. And who are you to tell me I should only be in one clan?
There is NOTHING wrong with being in 2 clans. If you put that in the context of this league, I dont see anything wrong with being in 2 clans of similar skill levels but separated by 1 division.

Let me give you something else to think about.
If morg had GOD in div 2 and hk in div 1, and coz of whore rules he no longer plays for GOD in s3. One match they only have 7 peeps turn up and morg is sitting in IRC but cant play. That is just a joke. They are a man down and must field 7 vs 8, just because of a bad rule. Meanwhile their opponents have a "super player" from wireplay league, and GOD get hammered.

 

[fade-]

We don't need so much conrtol over the league, if there are as many ppl who don't like dual clanners as some ppl have said there are then the clans them selfs can sort it.

S2 alowed dual clanning and was it wrecked! no it wasn't

maybe some of this has come from banning mercs so ppl have been "joining" the clans just to get numbers up.

Lets keep dual clanning as it is for the moment and is there are ne problems in S3 then review it and put it to the vote amonge the clan leaders (like a democrasy and not a dictatorship).
Maybe make ppl get authorisation to play for more than one clan, that would stop the who wanted to use it like mercing.

There are non-evil dual clanners honest
I still think this has been blown up by an outspoken few.
fAde-

 

[vuz]

there is no need for any one person to be in more than one clan in one league

there is no reason y dual clanning should be allowed in online gaming while not in other sports, when many are trying to get online gaming credited as "sport"

there is no reason y we should allow the possibility of players joining every clan in the goddamn league

there is no reason y we should allow the possibility of players joining a clan "temporarily" to make up numbers



Seriously, u say u can't see reasons for not allowing whores, but wot are the reasons for allowing them?
Because we can? Because it didn't affect s2 *that much*? So clans can basically enter twice?!




hmm

 

[fade-]

The reason to alow dual clanning is beacuse ppl want to!
and there arn't realy ne reasons that outway that.
Clan could never join twice (or at least they wouldn't last long) cus thats what admins are for.

I don't want to turn with into an allout war I just want to find the compramise that ppl can live with.

Most dual claners don't cause ne harm its just a few that have brought all this up.

fAde-

 

[Atomic Rammer]

"there is no need for any one person to be in more than one clan in one league "
Yes there is. If they are in 2 clans (nothing wrong with that) that are in separate divisions but similar skill levels of bwtfcl, then there is a need for more than one person to be in more than one clan in one league.

"there is no reason y dual clanning should be allowed in online gaming while not in other sports, when many are trying to get online gaming credited as "sport" "
Which brings me to my point earlier of "FFS its just a game! Perhaps the league is taking itself a bit seriously"
And just look at tennis, people compete in doubles and singles, which is sureley 2 different "divisions" of similar skill. If you must have a football analogy then players always on the bench or who dont get picked get loaned out to other clubs. Obviously they generally loan to clubs they are not competing against in a lower division.

"there is no reason y we should allow the possibility of players joining every clan in the goddamn league"
That is absolutely right, and the compromise I suggested neccessarily restricts a player to playing in only 2 teams, otherwise they would be in clans spanning 3 divisions which is not allowed.

"there is no reason y we should allow the possibility of players joining a clan "temporarily" to make up numbers"
That is a seperate issue entirely. If you want to make a rule banning temporary clan hopping to make up the numbers then fine. That does not relate to the issue of dual clanning in general. I seem to remember wireplay had some sort of rule stating u had to have a 2 week gap b4 u play for another team after leaving. And anyway if they cant make up numbers then they cant play and leave the league. I dont think thats what anyone wants.

Fade had it just right. The reasons to allow it is that people want to, and combine that with the fact that noone has come forward with any reason at all as to why people should not be able to play in 2 adjacent divisions, then the case is pretty clear.

This rule does not even achieve its objectives, it is a godsend for people who have good players from other leagues because some of their opponents are weakened, and the people who want the rule enforced cant come up with any good reasons why.

 

[old.Gimp]

Ban Whores!

• "there is no need for any one person to be in more than one clan in one league "
  Yes there is. If they are in 2 clans (nothing wrong with that) that are in separate divisions but similar skill levels of bwtfcl, then there is a need for more than one person to be in more than one clan in one league.

  Where is the necessity? There is no need to be in more than one clan, although people choose to for various reasons, which I find hard to understand. They obviously have the inability to choose one clan to play for, and choose to play for multiple clans in order to play more matches. Furry muff, but why not just improve the existing clan and play more?[/*]
  
  
  

• Which brings me to my point earlier of "FFS its just a game! Perhaps the league is taking itself a bit seriously"

  Football/Rugby is not a game too then?[/*]
  
  
  

• And just look at tennis, people compete in doubles and singles, which is sureley 2 different "divisions" of similar skill. If you must have a football analogy then players always on the bench or who dont get picked get loaned out to other clubs. Obviously they generally loan to clubs they are not competing against in a lower division.

  Playing Tennis, both doubles and singles, as you say, is more like being in a CS and and a TFC clan. They are different games in the way they are to be approached and they way in which they're played.
  Also, when a player is on load I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) he no longer plays for the club who loaned him for the period of that loan. So in effect, he has left his initial club, and joined another, for the duration of the loan.[/*]

 

[Atomic Rammer]

"There is no need to be in more than one clan, although people choose to for various reasons, which I find hard to understand."
So u want them banned coz u dont understand why? Give me one reason why people should not be in more than one, apart from the fact you dont understand why. The necessity comes because they want to be in 2. Who are you to argue with that?

"Football/Rugby is not a game too then"
Yes but not a computer game that people are just supposed to be playing for fun and not being paid to play and dedicate their lives to. I cant believe you didnt understand the point of what I was saying there.

I disagree about the tennis, and I thought that the football thing the home club could recall the player at any time. In any case it doesnt matter Because those are hardly the issues. Once more someone from the ban whores club avoids comment on the serious rule ammendment I suggested. Perhaps thats because they cant find anything wrong with it, but if they accept it then it wont deliver what they want.

 

[old.Andy]

I'm not going with either side but I think the football analogies are a load of crap. You're comparing PROFESSIONAL sports with a computer game.
How about comparing amateur sports. Now do you still think a Saturday league footballer wouldn't play in another team on a wednesday night if he wanted to?
As long as didn't need to play each other nobody would give a monkeys.

 

[Atomic Rammer]

See andy gets it Gimp. A pro league is entitled to take itself seriously. A pro league also has control over all the eligible players.
The ban whores rule only affects players that want to be in 2 bwtfcl clans. That is why the rule is utterly pointless, because any mischief that people want to cause can be done using dual clanners not in bwtfcl with another clan.
So any people seeking to do mischief can do it, but the people not causing any and just want to be in 2 clans are punished.

BAD RULE SCRAP IT

 

[fade-]

ooow sain inteligent points in BWTFCL!
I don't think I can take it

The only reason this league exists is because ppl want to play. So if ppl want to play in more than one clan and there arn't ne good reasons (which there arn't) then let them.


A completely seperate point but who could u even stop them!?
Mercs where baned and I've still seen my fair share of them.

fAde-

 

[vuz]

[Edited by ViRuZ on 11-12-00 at 22:58]

 

[old.Gimp]

Ban Whores!

How about comparing amateur sports. Now do you still think a Saturday league footballer wouldn't play in another team on a wednesday night if he wanted to?

Well the Sunday league team are in a different league than the one that plays on wednesdays so it isn't an issue here is it, because we are talking about dual clanning in the BWTFCL, not crossing into other leagues.

The necessity comes because they want to be in 2. Who are you to argue with that?

And here I quote from dictionary.com:

ne·ces·si·ty (n-ss-t)
n., pl. ne·ces·si·ties.


The condition or quality of being necessary.
Something necessary: The necessities of life include food, clothing, and shelter.

I thought it was just a game SYD? Although you rank being in 2 clans as highly as food, clothes and shelter? Hmm, priorities? Or a misunderstanding of the word 'necessity'?

Give me one reason why people should not be in more than one, apart from the fact you dont understand why. The necessity comes because they want to be in 2. Who are you to argue with that?

When I said I didn't understand, I meant I didn't understand the mentality of those who can't stick to just one clan at a time. Being in 1 clan promotes loyalty, improved teamplay, better moral, less arguments about whether whores should be allowed or not.
That's more than 1 reason mate.

 

[fade-]

How about:
Keep things as they are at the moment maybe with the additional rule of 2 clans only...
and if there is ne trouble put it to the vote

that should suit everyone {hopes}

fAde-

 

[fade-]

oi don't be a dildo Gimp Half-Life isn't a 'necessity' nether is the internet, TV, cars, infact most of the stuff in the modern world isn't a 'necessity'.

Some ppl have turned this into are war rather than the point of order it is.

(no offence btw Gimp)

fAde-

 

[vuz]

Look, basically I brought this up in the admin room with about 15 admins present and basically the fact is not one would support in anyway clan whores being allowed, the decision is not going to be changed, soz to people who feel they are badly affected, but it is generally thought it is for the good of the league, its not even like we're the odd one out, all other BW leagues and most TFC leagues have the same conditions: they are not there to piss people off, :/

 

[old.TGC Snow]

syd, when i said how a "super player" would affect a lower clan, i didn't mean they can't play for a lower clan if they want to. So long as it's their only clan, then that's perfectly fair.

I do agree that whoever said u should play for *roughly* the best clan u can was totally wrong. A =lot= of people are capable of playing for DW and who would rather play for another clan. You can play for whatever clan u want, just so long as it is only ONE clan.

Also, u will find, with a vote that dual-clanners would be banned, i promise u. Almost every single non-UK clan is strongly against whores, while a large proportion of the UK clans are too. This would outweigh those UK clans who have become used to dual-clanning as it has been accepted for so long in the UK.

I also find it hard to believe that members of a top-level, active clan such as A&I will drop to using the "it's only a game" argument, which can apply to anything when u don't know what to say. A&I are a serious clan, and u can't just pick and choose where to have the "it's only a game" attitude, and where to take it seriously.

Finally, as Viruz said, the admins are strongly against it. That's already more ppl who have posted on the side of the dual-clanners. Syd, Morgoth, Fade, Twinner(?)...

P.S. as fade said, there is such thing as a "non-evil" dual-clanner. Fade is one of those. That was the original reason behind the UKTFCL allowing dual-clanners way back then. But it just opens a path for "evil" dual-clanners like Dispel, etc. The =only= way to control it is to ban them outright. Apologies to anyone who is a "real" dual-clanner who takes both clans equally seriously, and is commited to both.