Remove AE-mezz/cc from game?

[Deepfat]

MoC is hardly compulsory. It's half hour use anyway as an abilty so in alot of fights it's either not up (ie used), usuable but unlikely to save your ass dues to excessive numbers on you etc, not needed in any case since your group has a definite advantage and will win in any case. Would I swap MoC for Det 3 for example? Hell Yes! I think alot of casters would. I am still saving for MoC (I'm not an pro-RvR player in a powerful RvR guild getting 30k an night) but I'd have to say looking back at 55k or so RPs my chanter has I'd have bet good money that Det3 would have saved me more deaths than MoC would have done

Anyway post-Savage Nerf I may play a little more RvR - we'll see

 

[Auriel]

CC duration is the killer - is there any need for spells that last 70 - 80 seconds in the delve? I'd much rather have them delve at 20 - 30s max and cut Det right back to 1 or 2 levels. Together with the resist nerfs, no-one should be out for a whole fight (and often 20s+ after it's over, assuming they're still alive...), but at the same time aoe cc should still be useful to win the initiative and det will still be there to give tanks a little more edge.

The trouble at the moment is that cc and det are way too extreme. They're needed and nice to have, but shouldn't be so powerful that hybrids / mages become dead-wieghts in nearly every encounter (as they are at the moment). Purge on a 5 min re-use timer (enough for once per battle) might be an idea too.

 

[Treon]

I agree with Bone, Det is way to cheap for a RA of its importance, make it alot more expensive, so not all tanks have it only the High RR ones

 

[bigchief]

Its not so easy as just removing aoemezz, you have to do something at purge and determination at the same time.

And i agree, remove /assist, /stick and /target from game (/follow is to far off for you to hit anyone, /face is really, really practiacl in PvE and not o/p in RvR).

/face in rvr is the only way I ever get a spell in. It stops you dead and allows you to cast. Try running at mach5 then stopping to cast CC without using /face, takes a few seconds, by then the possible advantage has gone. Compound that with insta ae cc and anyone that really must cast it is screwed. Hibs and mids say they don't use insta ae cc as its duration is too short but in the right situations its perfect. Run in, hit insta, run into the middle of the breifly mezd/stun'd grp and spam pbae. Half the grp should die rather quickly if done right then its 4 vs 8, you have to expect them to win from there

I don't like any insta CC personally but you cannot just remove cc from the game entirely. Someone mentioned durations of cc .. well I land a 44mind spec mez, land insta ae str/con debuff, move 5 yards and o look the savages are moving already. Yes it can take non det classes out of the fight for the duration but all it takes is a single purge and mez remove, or a grp purge, or a resist, or some retard on the opposing side doing an ae nuke (seen ppl do that before ~~). Det needs toning down alot though, det 5 /assist trains make cc'ing them kinda pointless.

You see its mostly Members of Midgard and Hibernia complaining, but there you go. I dont think getting rid of Mezz/CC is going to help in general i think giving all mezz spells a cast time (i.e. no instant mezz).

Some of you suggest getting rid of /assist, but how are you going to do in Darkness Falls or Caer Sidi raids when you start hitting the wrong mob and your whole group gets killed. In particular you cant just turn off /assist in RvR and not in PvE because DF is both.

Giving Determination to Non pure tanks or nerfing it is a bad idea, Paladins with Det would be seriously overpowered and no one would bother creating Armsmen anymore if we lost our other real advantage (polearms being the other)

Wait for Frontiers im sure it will remodel RvR.

They could if they wanted make /assist work only if you have a friendly player or a mob targetted. If you have an enemy player it can fail. Would work in pve then without working in rvr. However its not likely to happen, mythic seem to be in favour of making more ppl use assist than removing it entirely (see notes on reasons for resist debuff changes).

 

[Flimgoblin]

removing /assist wouldn't help - the gank groups with good computers would still do it manually, or via voice comms, it'd just make it harder for the pickup groups to compete - not something that's really needed frankly.

 

[Lakih]

/face in rvr is the only way I ever get a spell in. It stops you dead and allows you to cast. Try running at mach5 then stopping to cast CC without using /face, takes a few seconds, by then the possible advantage has gone. Compound that with insta ae cc and anyone that really must cast it is screwed. Hibs and mids say they don't use insta ae cc as its duration is too short but in the right situations its perfect. Run in, hit insta, run into the middle of the breifly mezd/stun'd grp and spam pbae. Half the grp should die rather quickly if done right then its 4 vs 8, you have to expect them to win from there

Originally Posted by Lakih:
Its not so easy as just removing aoemezz, you have to do something at purge and determination at the same time.

And i agree, remove /assist, /stick and /target from game (/follow is to far off for you to hit anyone, /face is really, really practiacl in PvE and not o/p in RvR).

As i said before,i agree with keeping /face ingame and /assist removed (or even better your idea of only making it work on reammates...)

 

[Linnet]

removing /assist wouldn't help - the gank groups with good computers would still do it manually, or via voice comms, it'd just make it harder for the pickup groups to compete - not something that's really needed frankly.

Sure it is. Gank groups will always have the advantage of better co-ordination anyway, but why do we have to make it just as easy for casual players to slaughter us, really? I don't see how that is a game objective

 

[Litmus]

remove mezz and your only way of winning is zerging

 

[Kreig]

remove mezz and your only way of winning is zerging

So u've never had a fairly even fight vs another realm where by no side has had any form of CC? Maybe it doesnt happen much nowdays due to the strong fotm grps, but it does happen and did used to a lot. When it does 8 vs 8 or similar numbers it makes for a good fight. Like with the /assist trains yes perfect grps can kill > all but its hardly fun, 3 ppl ganking some one dead in a few sec's > next target > repeat x8, thats not fun night in night out (obviously some ppl do). On that note some of the best fights ive had have been without CC or small encounters or 1 on 1's.

remove mezz and your only way of winning is zerging

On a side note ive seen 3 fgs of albs (2 randoms + 1 opt grp) completely raped by 1fg of Mid Savage/Healer trains. So even Zerging doesnt work these days when you come across a fg made up of rr8 + !

 

[Dreami]

Why? Would be st0000pid.

 

[Dreami]

On a side note ive seen 3 fgs of albs (2 randoms + 1 opt grp) completely raped by 1fg of Mid Savage/Healer trains. So even Zerging doesnt work these days when you come across a fg made up of rr8 + !

I've seen Alb tank grp kill 4-5fg mids, so what's your point?

 

[Kreig]

I've seen Alb tank grp kill 4-5fg mids, so what's your point?

The thing that you didnt mention there that were those mids randoms or opted - and i highly doubt they would have been opted.

Initially there were two points to what i said, 1st it was a reply to Litmus who was going on about Zerging, so i was trying to imply that in the face of superior CC that doesnt always work (He did say w/o CC but still is posiable ot have a good fight complete mass zerging). Secondly i did say that it was 2fgs of un-opted and 1fg of opted (It was a PE + FL grp) so even if you do Zerg and have some skilled players in the mix with supposedly perfect or close to perfect set-up VS insta CC ie healers you can be pretty much screwed anyway.

Like some one has said above either the reduction in mezz duration combined with a reduction in Determination effectiveness OR get rid of insta CC and make it all castable.

 

[ye-roon]

1 thing:

How did u feel when some idiot pulled the whole tangelr spot and the sorc in your grp aoe-mezzed em all...

 

[Fedaykin]

would be a totally stupid idea end of story

 

[Loxleyhood]

1 thing:

How did u feel when some idiot pulled the whole tangelr spot and the sorc in your grp aoe-mezzed em all...

I would be beating the idiot to death with one of his own severed limbs. Unless I was the idiot. I did crit shot a few tanglers in my day.

 

[Iskander]

...

i would rather seen /assist /face /target and other easymode-killskill tools removed from game but then again we can remove CC and every bit of skill that remains in game and expand the swarm

That would make RvR way to difficult for the average tanks. Imagine they would not be able to use button1 (/assist) button2 (/stick) and button3 ( quad hit insta caster death or whatever other crap) anymore. Do we really want to make the game to hard for them to compete?

 

[Iskander]

The problems I see in RvR are :

1. Determination way to cheap and way to overpowered
2. Insta's. Remove this crap or put it on a real long timer.
3. /assist /stick and the likes. Stop these silly assist trains.
4. Savages please *please* nerf the living daylight out of them, and then please nerf them some more.
5. Stealth zergs.
6. and let's not forget alarm clock Relic Raids,maybe the most lame thing around.

Due to the current design, and the abilities of certain classes lots of people have no chance of getting in a decent rvr group, and are not able to have some fun RvR'ing because they do not belong to one of the prefered classes.

 

[Darzil]

How about :

Getting rid of all AE (not single target) Insta CC.
Nerfing Determination a bit.
Having a diminishing return on more than a certain number of meleers attacking one target (Say 3 or 4 for players, higher for most mobs, much higher for epic creatures).

Result is that people spend a bit less time mezzed, except those with high Det, who'll spend more time compared to now. Assist trains will still exist, but will be smaller, and will hit multiple targets at once, so the fights will be quicker. There will again be an advantage to Large shields (due to fewer attackers), so defence again becomes possible.

Darzil

 

[Damnnationx]

About CC

Remove insta mes!! remove castable aoe mes!! casters wont get torn to bits, tanks will simply have too look after there healers /casters more than they do and casters will have to use there qucik cast roots / stuns etc
Who knows maybe a platform for new ra's where by a soloer would be granted a certain ra that isnt usable in grp and maybe a grp ra system where by in grp its activated and out of it isnt... haha givf wizzys insat single rootaswell while ya at it and member althose major xp grps where by thurgs were aoe rooting and imagine rvr grps without aoe messing caster specs would be so mutch better and wanted maybe LOL yehh right FIRE WIZZ FOR TEH WIN lol

 

[Pogel]

I'd be happy to see AE CC go. I'd also like to see Det removed from the game but a small amount of the Det effect (e.g. Det 2) given to all* to cut down on CC duration. Insta CC should stay but as they would be single target anyway I don't think that would be unbalancing (those that have insta CC don't generally have QC so face problems with interruptability). I'd be happy to lose /assist.

*I don' think it's healthy for the game as a whole to have very powerful abilities only available from RPs. I'd like to see RAs limited to things that only give a marginal beneit (small stat increases, etc.) with other rewards (titles, strategic command abilities, etc.) to reward high realm rank.

 

[Hotrats]

qc is capped at 2sec, cant go below that cast time, so ur sorc and every mage in game casts faster wo qc most times .)


---
about stick and face, stick gives no real advantage, just handy tool, face is too powerful giving sum sort of 6sth sense to ur character? well used etc..

CC is not the problem in daoc, actually its one of the features that make a sweet game from it, and there are enuff tools against it (purge and curemezz, det and resists are more sucky easymode noskill tools )

Anyway patch after patch game has been dieing slowly with totally fucked up addons, sum of em bigger and older than others ^^ bk bindstones, sc, etc etc etc

I believe ToA and such an huge amount of changes in 1 patch will b the start of the end .)

If you remove /face you have to create a /stop command or something otherwise casters get spammed with "you move and interupt your cast!" whenever you try and cast a spell coming out of speed 5. Tbh being able to move and cast would be cool, so long as you have to have your target in line of sight to cast the spell!

The BK bindstone thing won't matter with the arrival of frontiers. However whether or not Frontiers improves daoc we shall have to see, keeps look good, RA changes look good, map changes suck (too many keeps/towers/guards everywhere) and radar thing sucks.

 

[Hotrats]

Giving Determination to Non pure tanks or nerfing it is a bad idea, Paladins with Det would be seriously overpowered and no one would bother creating Armsmen anymore if we lost our other real advantage (polearms being the other)

Paladin with det would not be overpowered, their damage output is very low (on a different damage table to arms/mercs) and the only reason they are grouped is for their utility (mostly end regen).
Reaver with det on the other hand, now that might be a bit overpowered

 

[Mr Kitty]

As a caster who tends to get ripped apart rather a lot as the result of mezz (as opposed to having my ass saved by it!), I would like to see some changes made too.

1). Removing aoe cc (particularly mezz!) from the game.

Although I find myself cursing rather a lot after a nasty mezzing, I can see that there are some big problems with removing this. The obvious one being that several classes would need a huge overhaul (not likely to happen at this late stage I imagine). As some people suggest though, reducing the length of time the mezz lasts is more viable/reasonable. The average RvR group (as in those not laden with great realm abilities) will generally go down rather swiftly to a good mezz. I can’t really help but feel something should be done about this.

As for casters who use it to stop themselves being wiped out within a millisecond of being spotted. Please make casters less vulnerable!! (ok another thread J )

2). Removing instas

Personally I would love this…again primarily because being a man in a dress, I’m usually the first to hit the deck. Maybe making it a high cost realm ability, or single target only would make it more reasonable.

3). Getting rid of /assist

This is a great idea. A friend of mine who is relatively new to RvR, couldn’t understand why he was seen as such a threat that he was getting piled on by 5 enemies at once… Obviously the reason is, he dies pretty quickly and so does the next person to be steamrolled…battle over more quickly etc…

But, as to whether it creates a more strategic/enjoyable experience, I doubt it. Yea. Get rid of it, and make everyone think for themselves imo!

 

[Chilly]

Paladin with det would not be overpowered, their damage output is very low (on a different damage table to arms/mercs) and the only reason they are grouped is for their utility (mostly end regen).
Reaver with det on the other hand, now that might be a bit overpowered

what balls is that? only reason pallies exist is to slam and protect/guard end regen is for your gimp assed tanks who cant survive withouyt it, pallies hsould NEVER EVER be used offensively, its a fukinw aste of time

 

[Casualgamer]

I agree fights need to be longer. Most people accept you win some and lose some. But what will always piss people off is waiting for a port, or jogging to Emain/HW/Odin's for 10 minutes, after having spent a further 10 minutes getting your group together, only to meet either a zerg or a fotm group and get wiped in less than 10 seconds. We've all had the experience of running merrily over a hill, bumping into an uber fotm pbaoe group, and :

Random tank : I sure hope we don't bump into any...HIBS INC !
<You are all mesmerised>
Random tank reaches for "purge" key
<Loud explosions>
Random tank presses "purge" key
<You have all died fighting for your realm etc etc>

You could say the same about any random group encountering a fotm group of any realm. If we had the same outcome, but it took 60 seconds of running around at least trying to hit the little luri bugger, then we'd all be releasing a little happier.

Surely the simplest answer is just to alter the damage tables for all classes so that they do only 10% or 20% of the damage they do now to other players. You don't need to do anything to styles, spells, RAs etc. Just simply everyone gets to stand up ten or five times longer than they currently do. Fights become longer and more complex, casters get to stay alive for a while even if the tanks reach them, giving their own tanks time to respond and protect. Tanks get to stay alive even if mezzed and that little luri bugger runs up to them and starts his pbaoe spam. Tactics might even be used, everybody's happy. I'm sure there's a flaw with that, but I don't see it.

Oh, and get rid of /assist too. /assist is a tool for the unskilled or lazy. Everyone should have to learn to choose the right targets.

 

[Pogel]

Surely the simplest answer is just to alter the damage tables for all classes so that they do only 10% or 20% of the damage they do now to other players. You don't need to do anything to styles, spells, RAs etc. Just simply everyone gets to stand up ten or five times longer than they currently do. Fights become longer and more complex, casters get to stay alive for a while even if the tanks reach them, giving their own tanks time to respond and protect. Tanks get to stay alive even if mezzed and that little luri bugger runs up to them and starts his pbaoe spam. Tactics might even be used, everybody's happy. I'm sure there's a flaw with that, but I don't see it.

The problem with simply altering the damage tables is that it really shifts the balance of ranged vs melee combat. Prolonging the fight means that more of it will occur at melee range and that will seriously disadvantage most casters.

 

[Glacier]

AE crowd control by itself needn't be overpowering, but somehow the duration needs to be capped to never be lower than (for example) 10s and never higher than (for example) 20s ... something that can help swing a battle but needn't be a fight-winner by itself. Determination & purge have a role to play in that, but it gets silly at the moment because of the way it's affecting group formation. Mez is annoying, granted. As a sorc I'd swap it for something else if other realms lost AE mez also, for sure.

Also, defensive tanks need to be able to actually protect their support classes so it gets to be a real tactical decision as to whether to go defensive or offensive -- atm attack > all, /assist needs to be removed from RvR etc so that fights (even for sorcs) last more than the 2s it takes for the assist train to kick in.

Fights need to last longer in general IMO, which is hard to balance for classes which need to kill quickly.

/\ agree