This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Remove AE-mezz/cc from game?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Fana, Dec 28, 2003.

  1. Fana

    Fana Fledgling Freddie

    As i see it the ability to completely nullify several or even all of your opponents (even for only a short time thanks to determination etc) is the single most destructive part of the current rvr rule-set. I mean something *has* to be wrong when this ability is considered (and truly is) so important that you cant leave your tk without at least 2 classes capable of performing it :mad:
    Mythic has essentially decided for us how we "must" build our groups to be able to stand a chanse against the enemy (since the enemy also recognize the need to "out-cc" the opposition).

    I dare say that we would see alot more diversity in how a group would look if AE cc ,and AE mezz in particular, did no longer exist in the game. Or at least were 30 min reuse high-cost realm abilities or some such.

    Ah well, guess im just tired of constantly hearing how a group *must* be set up to work. Any comments appreciated, although im sure its been discussed alot before.

    /fana
     
  2. Lakih

    Lakih Resident Freddy

    Its been discussed alot... and then again... and again... and another time... and once more... and... well... again...

    I think CC has its place in daoc, but what really needs to be adressed is Determination (making nondet tank/hybrids not wanted and cc useless), instant aoe-cc (instant singletarget should be a one get-away-for-free card for some classes) and maybe set purge at a 6-8pts cost for hybrids (pallies, champs, thanes, valewalkers, reavers).
    And sorc's boltrange mezz is alittle odd imo...
     
  3. liste

    liste Fledgling Freddie

    as long as sorcs dont have insta CC, they need the bolt range. give em insta, and you can take the bolt range and QC for all i care :)
     
  4. Thorarin

    Thorarin Fledgling Freddie

    Instas kinda suck anyway ever since Det showed up..
     
  5. Toxx

    Toxx Fledgling Freddie

    if you removed CC.. support / casters would get torn to bits within seconds, making daoc an even more tank loving game :p
     
  6. Ele

    Ele Fledgling Freddie

    Maybe if all CC/mez was removed yes...but initially this thread is a call to remove AE mez/cc, which kind of makes the battles 1 sided I have to admit..I'm all for some form of CC, but AE imo needs looking at to even out the game.
     
  7. Loxleyhood

    Loxleyhood Fledgling Freddie

    And what happens to Mind Sorcs, Pac Healers and Bards? Don't try to reinvent the wheel.
     
  8. Elendar

    Elendar One of Freddy's beloved

    CC gives an advantage to whoever gets it in, but its not a fight winner by itself, most of the time both grps will end up with some people mezzed at as grps close with each other, and its still possible to win even if the enemy jumps you and gets a perfect mez, especially with resist buffs, Cure mez, purge, det etc
    and saying cc should be removed because it makes you have certain classes in grp, is like saying heals should be removed for the same reason....

    i think det 2 or so should be given to most hybrids to reduce the difference, but giving everyone or taking away all det would not work very well
     
  9. lofff

    lofff One of Freddy's beloved

    ...

    i would rather seen /assist /face /target and other easymode-killskill tools removed from game but then again we can remove CC and every bit of skill that remains in game and expand the swarm :m00:
     
  10. Kami

    Kami Can't get enough of FH

    I'm with you there Lofff! remove /assist /face /target commands and even /stick /follow (what's the point anyway? stay at your pc and control your char..)

    I don't rvr much, because I either get pwned by an assist group or mezzed, stunned and killed (not much fun in that.) AOE CC should be removed or at least made a lot weaker so that we can have more fighting and less standing about going ZZZzzZZZZZzzz. Perhaps lowering purge timer would help a little, although I'd like to see single CC's kept fairly powerful. The problem is, as someone pointed out before what do you do with the bards, healers and sorc that have spec'd for these abilities - pretty complicated issue unfortunately :(
     
  11. Xplo

    Xplo Banned

    be gone with your stupid idea's o/
     
  12. Lakih

    Lakih Resident Freddy

    Its not so easy as just removing aoemezz, you have to do something at purge and determination at the same time.

    And i agree, remove /assist, /stick and /target from game (/follow is to far off for you to hit anyone, /face is really, really practiacl in PvE and not o/p in RvR).
     
  13. Bone_Idle

    Bone_Idle Fledgling Freddie

    The problem seems to be Det. Daoc needs CC. It keeps people on their feet and alert, The first group to get the first mezz in used to win but since people realised Det was so good its made CC useless anyway.

    Either give all tanks access to Det and make it really expensive rp wise or remove it alltogether.

    But no, i dont think AE CC should be removed. :)
     
  14. Linnet

    Linnet Fledgling Freddie

    AE crowd control by itself needn't be overpowering, but somehow the duration needs to be capped to never be lower than (for example) 10s and never higher than (for example) 20s ... something that can help swing a battle but needn't be a fight-winner by itself. Determination & purge have a role to play in that, but it gets silly at the moment because of the way it's affecting group formation. Mez is annoying, granted. As a sorc I'd swap it for something else if other realms lost AE mez also, for sure.

    Also, defensive tanks need to be able to actually protect their support classes so it gets to be a real tactical decision as to whether to go defensive or offensive -- atm attack > all, /assist needs to be removed from RvR etc so that fights (even for sorcs) last more than the 2s it takes for the assist train to kick in.

    Fights need to last longer in general IMO, which is hard to balance for classes which need to kill quickly.
     
  15. Ele

    Ele Fledgling Freddie

    What Linnet said /agree
     
  16. gunner440

    gunner440 Hey Daddy Altman

    yeah just lower the maximum duration a bit and lessen det effects also

    i feel its a compromise but should be workable later?
     
  17. Fana

    Fana Fledgling Freddie

    Interesting suggestion to remove /assist. I could certainly see that would make fights last alot longer and get more interesting - and take a bit more skill than pressing /assist and wack the appropriate styles: you'd actually have to look around yourself and see how the fight is unfolding, where you can do the most good as a tank (etc) and where your fellow tanks are engaged, at least to a higher extent than today.

    But i remain convinced that AE cc is a to blame for how we only run with certain types of group setups. I am a mid and i grow tired of seeing groups stand around atk waiting to build the "perfect" group made up of 2 pac healers, 1 other healer (could be a third pac but often is an aug), shaman, skald, and preferably 3 savages or maybe zerks if not enough savages are available. Thanks to the importance of ae cc this is considererd the only truly viable group you can run with, and other classes need not bother going to rvr.
    I mean come on! Something is obviously terribly wrong when you "must" have 3 of a certain class in an 8 man group to have any real hope of winning more than the occasional fight!

    It is a truly awefull gamedesign if less than half of the classes in a realm are welcome in rvr fights in my oppinion.

    And of course im not suggesting that ae cc be simply removed and nothing added instead - it would require a restructuring of abilities and rebalancing of the roles different classes play in rvr combat. Perhaps give increased significance to single targeted cc? More snare effects/spells to keep tanks of casters for a bit longer, but not render anyone completely unable to make use of his character? Im sure there are tons of ways to keep pac healers and sorcerers and other cc classes usefull but not *essential* to groups.

    /fana
     
  18. Bubble

    Bubble Can't get enough of FH

    My sorc cast's normal mez faster than QC mez :|
     
  19. lofff

    lofff One of Freddy's beloved

    qc is capped at 2sec, cant go below that cast time, so ur sorc and every mage in game casts faster wo qc most times .)


    ---
    about stick and face, stick gives no real advantage, just handy tool, face is too powerful giving sum sort of 6sth sense to ur character?:p well used etc..

    CC is not the problem in daoc, actually its one of the features that make a sweet game from it, and there are enuff tools against it (purge and curemezz, det and resists are more sucky easymode noskill tools :p )

    Anyway patch after patch game has been dieing slowly with totally fucked up addons, sum of em bigger and older than others ^^ bk bindstones, sc, etc etc etc

    I believe ToA and such an huge amount of changes in 1 patch will b the start of the end .)
     
  20. Shan

    Shan Fledgling Freddie

    I agree with removing assist, but you should know that /stick /face /target aren't there for "easy mode", they are originally in to allow players with bad computers / bad connection to play somewhat well. ie how would a big raid be able to have anyone with with bad computers when only way you can be in is watching ground fully zoomed in. That's where /stick is needed. It doesn't really kill game, besides without /stick gay strafing and running through characters would be even more annoying.

    But i agree, remove /assist and teach people to work as group better :p
     
  21. Job

    Job Resident Fuckwit FH Subscriber

    I'll have to agree, mezz lasts too long and I've got a Bard myself.

    FFS, I've been in a battle mezzed straight away and still standing there 20 secs after it finished.
     
  22. Borim

    Borim Fledgling Freddie

    its needed
     
  23. Jpeg QuickStix

    Jpeg QuickStix Fledgling Freddie

    keep the crowd control IMO ., BUT TAKE AWAY ALLLLLLLLLLLL INSTA CC

    i would love a doac with NO insta mezz . Insta Stunn . Insta Root . Insta Desiease (this is a form of cc imo) . make it all castablke (and for bards healers to make up for no insta give them Quickcast ability :) ) but please take away the instas
     
  24. Deepfat

    Deepfat Fledgling Freddie

    Remove /assist I'd say. CC should be left in as is with determination available to ALL classes with pure tanks getting a cheaper rate as they do with IP/Purge. As it stands it's stupid that, for example, an RR2 Hero with a couple of levels of Det is likely to mezzed for as long as an RR10 Champ without purge up. Pure tanks *did* need some love and now the hybrids do too and so do casters. This would redress the balance somewhat without taking away anything from pure tanks who should quite rightly imo have some advantage over hybrid tanks.
     
  25. Shan

    Shan Fledgling Freddie

    Giving Det to all classes would, well, suck. ie MoC is basically mandatory for (Supp) SM. Now if you take MCL, LW1 and MoC, you have to be 3L8. Sure no big deal if you got HC elite rvr guild that gathers 30k rp each night, but it's problem for others. Then imagine Det. You wouldn't get as much groups without Det or people would take Det (Higher RR) SM's before you, and you'd have to be like 1 RR Higher to be able to have Det + MoC.

    Just one example. For tanks it's not so terrible, because Tank gets playable RA's really fast.

    And now please don't start with the "you don't have to take MoC, it's your own choice" blah blah :p
     
  26. Robber

    Robber Fledgling Freddie

    I'd just like them to take away the instant mez and make it castable. That would help even things out, or at least give a full mind sorcerer an instant mez, that might encourage me to take my scorcerer out of lyonesse as i'm sure he's debuffed enough pygmy's to last a lifetime. :D
     
  27. Lakih

    Lakih Resident Freddy

    What about changeing Determination to 10% / level (instead of 15%), make it cost 3 - 6 - 9 and cap at level 3 for non puretanks (Hero, Armsman, Warrior --> Pure tanks).
    And make savages a real hybrid, maybe you once in a blue moon get to see a zerker again.
     
  28. Firebirth

    Firebirth Fledgling Freddie

    You see its mostly Members of Midgard and Hibernia complaining, but there you go. I dont think getting rid of Mezz/CC is going to help in general i think giving all mezz spells a cast time (i.e. no instant mezz).

    Some of you suggest getting rid of /assist, but how are you going to do in Darkness Falls or Caer Sidi raids when you start hitting the wrong mob and your whole group gets killed. In particular you cant just turn off /assist in RvR and not in PvE because DF is both.

    Giving Determination to Non pure tanks or nerfing it is a bad idea, Paladins with Det would be seriously overpowered and no one would bother creating Armsmen anymore if we lost our other real advantage (polearms being the other)

    Wait for Frontiers im sure it will remodel RvR.
     
  29. Fana

    Fana Fledgling Freddie

    Well what id like to see is the removal of AE cc, not all cc.

    Perhaps make Determination less effective and only have single target cc?
    That way a cc class can still do be very usefull, keeping single targets pinned down with cc, but cannot neutralize a whole party and win the fight for her group.
    Or even, make cc concentration based! Imagine a cc spell that was pretty much unbreakable except maybe through the use of some counterspell but that required the caster to concentrate on that spell (like a focus pet shield today). This would allow a cc character to keep 1 other character in "stasis", and he would have to switch his target as the fight unfolds to best affect the outcome. If the enemy wanted to free their comrade they would have to interupt the casters focus.
     
  30. Joxor

    Joxor Fledgling Freddie

    Imho they should keep CC, remove insta CC and put it on a very low timer.
    Most important changes we should get imo :
    Remove /assist
    Make the CC shorter, make the CC immunity timers longer.

    Many a battle ive had where i was mezzed, then finnaly got out of mezz to simply being mezzed yet again....

    Annoys me to no end...
     

Share This Page