fl3a
Can't get enough of FH
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Messages
- 1,989
the original question seems to have more to do with freedom, as in the lack of constraints, than with free will, as in the lack of a determined life path for a person. yet it seems to me that they are quite connected, but one is not required for the other.
of course, depending on the background of your birth and upbringing, you will have a varying amount of freedom. or at least it might seem that way - being born into a rich family seems to give you much more choices in what to do. you can eat this or that, you can fly on holiday wherever you want etc. but if you are born on the street you seem to be less free. you have to eat out of a dumpster if you want to survive, be 'kept down by the man' and so on. but does having worse choices actually mean you have less choices?
what im getting at here, is that with both backgrounds, there is (nearly) an infinite amount of options on how, when, where etc you carry out an action, or if you do it in the first place. there is no difference between infinity and infinity, so from a 'freedom' point of view, both people are equal. every moment of their life they have the ability to make a choice, take some action. the actions available might vary from person to person, but that does not mean less freedom. the fact that humans cant fly or breathe water doesnt really mean that they are in some way constrained, its just the way humans are.
being free, and having free will, is binary. you either are free or you arent.
if humans have free will, then even if you are imprisoned and being taken to the chopping block for execution you are free to do an infinite amount of things.
if every single choice has been determined beforehand and humans dont have free will there is still no reason to discuss varying degrees of freedom, because it simply doesnt exist.
but then, if we have free will, and are capable of acting in an infinite amount of different ways at every single moment in time, how can we follow the type of religion in question? even if we listen to everything that our god has told us to do and do it, by the letter, there still seems to be an infinite amount of ways for us to fuck up and still go to hell.
the way to do that seems to be, you have to strive to be the best that you can. you have to pick the action that seems best and do that. times infinity during your life. they have put in enough clauses to keep people from being fed up with following it. repentance for your sins grants you a free pass, you can still be judged true of faith if you do something bad, whatever, it varies. but the point of it all is - you are free to do what you want. god would prefer it if you acted in a certain way, which is such that at the time of writing, if everybody acted this way, everybody would be better off.
oh, i just remembered one more thing about the 'freedom' part of the talk, its that fear of punishment is not a constraint. if a person is not being utterly and completely disabled, against their will, from taking a certain action which they would normally be able to perform, they are not constrained and thus free to do so.
the reason we dont simply take what we want in stores, is not that we are in some way constrained from taking an item from the shelf and pocketing it. its ourselves, and our free will, that stops us from doing it, not some outside influence. the fear of probable punishment isnt what stops us. we simply make a choice, based on all the facts available to us, and decide that we shouldnt do it, because if we do something, then this and that and whatever will happen, and we dont want that to happen.
of course, depending on the background of your birth and upbringing, you will have a varying amount of freedom. or at least it might seem that way - being born into a rich family seems to give you much more choices in what to do. you can eat this or that, you can fly on holiday wherever you want etc. but if you are born on the street you seem to be less free. you have to eat out of a dumpster if you want to survive, be 'kept down by the man' and so on. but does having worse choices actually mean you have less choices?
what im getting at here, is that with both backgrounds, there is (nearly) an infinite amount of options on how, when, where etc you carry out an action, or if you do it in the first place. there is no difference between infinity and infinity, so from a 'freedom' point of view, both people are equal. every moment of their life they have the ability to make a choice, take some action. the actions available might vary from person to person, but that does not mean less freedom. the fact that humans cant fly or breathe water doesnt really mean that they are in some way constrained, its just the way humans are.
being free, and having free will, is binary. you either are free or you arent.
if humans have free will, then even if you are imprisoned and being taken to the chopping block for execution you are free to do an infinite amount of things.
if every single choice has been determined beforehand and humans dont have free will there is still no reason to discuss varying degrees of freedom, because it simply doesnt exist.
but then, if we have free will, and are capable of acting in an infinite amount of different ways at every single moment in time, how can we follow the type of religion in question? even if we listen to everything that our god has told us to do and do it, by the letter, there still seems to be an infinite amount of ways for us to fuck up and still go to hell.
the way to do that seems to be, you have to strive to be the best that you can. you have to pick the action that seems best and do that. times infinity during your life. they have put in enough clauses to keep people from being fed up with following it. repentance for your sins grants you a free pass, you can still be judged true of faith if you do something bad, whatever, it varies. but the point of it all is - you are free to do what you want. god would prefer it if you acted in a certain way, which is such that at the time of writing, if everybody acted this way, everybody would be better off.
oh, i just remembered one more thing about the 'freedom' part of the talk, its that fear of punishment is not a constraint. if a person is not being utterly and completely disabled, against their will, from taking a certain action which they would normally be able to perform, they are not constrained and thus free to do so.
the reason we dont simply take what we want in stores, is not that we are in some way constrained from taking an item from the shelf and pocketing it. its ourselves, and our free will, that stops us from doing it, not some outside influence. the fear of probable punishment isnt what stops us. we simply make a choice, based on all the facts available to us, and decide that we shouldnt do it, because if we do something, then this and that and whatever will happen, and we dont want that to happen.
