Religious question.

[old.Tohtori]

Let's try to keep this out of the whole anti-pro-atheist-agnostic-spaghetti mosnter discussion, if we can

Now, bible thingy tells us that we are given free will right? And thus, choose our path etc.

All fine and well in the big ones plan.

Now the question is this;

With some people having more power and opportunities to gain that power, they can choose what peope can do, not to mention laws and such telling us what to do. We're forced to pay taxes(or lose a lot of things) and so on.

So a person can't be free without being punished for it.

Doesn't this go against humanity having free will, if some people have the power to control what that free will is used on?

If that makes sense, if not, do ask for clarification.

 

[mooSe_]

I thought that the idea of free will in this context that people have the ability to think and act freely; not that they should be in a situation where they can act completely free of consequence.

 

[Mikah75]

This does go against 'humanity having free will' if you are using such a phrase in your context however you have to factor in other.. factors. First of all we live in a society, not necessarily a good one, you have free will and people who choose to express this free will in other ways. Power = knowledge = power simple equation, also another factor of which i choose to believe power 95% time corrupts. People in positions of power and authority often rule or strive to get close to that i.e. government and the elite. This is more a sociological question I did lots of work on this at uni, very interesting work when looking in Anarchism. Specifically Collectivist Anarchism such as Neo-Marxist Anarchists and anarcho-syndicalism have quite a lot to say on this perspective very interesting read .

 

[old.Tohtori]

I thought that the idea of free will in this context that people have the ability to think and act freely; not that they should be in a situation where they can act completely free of consequence.

Quite, but it's very ahrd to live freely when you can't, per extreme example, build your own hut and live without taxes etc.

Someone owns that land and everything is owned, so it kinda leaves you only being able to act within boundaries.

Thinking is free, ofcourse, but voicing some thoughts will get you beaten up and in worst case, killed.

I think the problem is, that society is built on a lot of "gods laws", which kind of go to war against the free will act.

This does go against 'humanity having free will' if you are using such a phrase in your context however you have to factor in other.. factors. First of all we live in a society, not necessarily a good one, you have free will and people who choose to express this free will in other ways. Power = knowledge = power simple equation, also another factor of which i choose to believe power 95% time corrupts. People in positions of power and authority often rule or strive to get close to that i.e. government and the elite. This is more a sociological question I did lots of work on this at uni, very interesting work when looking in Anarchism. Specifically Collectivist Anarchism such as Neo-Marxist Anarchists and anarcho-syndicalism have quite a lot to say on this perspective very interesting read .

Have to take a gander at those with some time, but the point about people in pwoer being corrupt and that being the hinderstone of societies free wioll is an interesting point.

Wouldn't it be prudent for the religious folk to rally towards free will? Even if i know that would cause problems, but surely it would be the right direction.

 

[kiliarien]

I think the Bible actually says it in the context that our will was in fact free by the grace of God (i.e. you still have to abide by the 10 commandments).

Another argument:

Do humans have free will?

The question seems more to be whether human have free will and can act without consequence. According to the big book, I think not.

 

[Raven]

If you follow any religion to the letter then you have no free will. Though in saying that if you choose to follow a religion then that is free will.

The problem is, most people are brainwashed into religion and have no free will.

 

[Job]

There's a lot of brain scan research going on which is beginning to show a picture of us not having any free will at all, with sub conscious parts of the mind deciding before we even think as to what we will think.
Not just yes or no decisions..but everything.
The whole of our self awareness might just be an illusion built on robotic responses.

Which is an excellent defence in that murder rap if I ever heard one.

 

[Zenith.UK]

Free will is the capacity to make choices for yourself.
All choices have consequences.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. It's more like the crossover in a Venn diagram.

 

[Mikah75]

Quite, but it's very ahrd to live freely when you can't, per extreme example, build your own hut and live without taxes etc.

Someone owns that land and everything is owned, so it kinda leaves you only being able to act within boundaries.

Thinking is free, ofcourse, but voicing some thoughts will get you beaten up and in worst case, killed.

I think the problem is, that society is built on a lot of "gods laws", which kind of go to war against the free will act.



Have to take a gander at those with some time, but the point about people in pwoer being corrupt and that being the hinderstone of societies free wioll is an interesting point.

Wouldn't it be prudent for the religious folk to rally towards free will? Even if i know that would cause problems, but surely it would be the right direction.

Not people, POWER is corrupting, it is an entity almost which feeds into people changing them when expressed into corruptive behaviour. According to anarchists, no matter what political stance gain power, it all results in the end, this is why they call for the abolition of the state. If there is no state, there is no corrupting influence. For some anarchist perspectives, one of the oldest in fact believe that at the heart of every human is a good willed nature who is kind, generous and curtous and that left to our own devices humanity could flourish without state intervention and power's corrupting influence. Also you should look at Michel Foucault, very interesting power and knowledge theorum, also some stuff about blood and sex very good read.

It is very prudent for religious folk to rally towards free will! Many religions and philosophies believe that distinct doctrines and dogma's will grant human life with free will with following its guidelines however the very fact of this is complete hypocrisy in itself. How is subjecting ones body and mind to a greater being free will at all? (certain religions ofcourse) You are following someone elses commands and thoughts maybe these beliefs or commandments in an ethical mind set would cause peace, generousity among other so called 'goods' however that very term is a something socialised into our very being how can one define good and evil when we are brain washed throughout hundreds of years into what right and wrong is. Pardon my philosophical stance if I'm fucking with your chi but theres not really an answer here just food for thought and I get all over this kind of shit

 

[TdC]

Free will is the capacity to make choices for yourself.
All choices have consequences.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. It's more like the crossover in a Venn diagram.

what he said. there is free will, however other circumstances may affect your choice. letting yourself be affected by said circumstances is also free will.

 

[kiliarien]

Not people, POWER is corrupting, it is an entity almost which feeds into people changing them when expressed into corruptive behaviour. According to anarchists, no matter what political stance gain power, it all results in the end, this is why they call for the abolition of the state. If there is no state, there is no corrupting influence. For some anarchist perspectives, one of the oldest in fact believe that at the heart of every human is a good willed nature who is kind, generous and curtous and that left to our own devices humanity could flourish without state intervention and power's corrupting influence. Also you should look at Michel Foucault, very interesting power and knowledge theorum, also some stuff about blood and sex very good read.

It is very prudent for religious folk to rally towards free will! Many religions and philosophies believe that distinct doctrines and dogma's will grant human life with free will with following its guidelines however the very fact of this is complete hypocrisy in itself. How is subjecting ones body and mind to a greater being free will at all? (certain religions ofcourse) You are following someone elses commands and thoughts maybe these beliefs or commandments in an ethical mind set would cause peace, generousity among other so called 'goods' however that very term is a something socialised into our very being how can one define good and evil when we are brain washed throughout hundreds of years into what right and wrong is. Pardon my philosophical stance if I'm fucking with your chi but theres not really an answer here just food for thought and I get all over this kind of shit

Simple way to put it:

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

We all choose. Its not religion. Its existentialism.

The framing of the original question is limited in its scope by the implied assumption that the ability to choose is granted by a deity.

Count the number of decisions any one person makes in a day, you might get a shock just how soon after waking up you start to hit the hundreds and then watch the number climb throughout the day. We all make choices constantly. The choice to collude with those percieved to be in power is still a choice, even if there are more affecting consequences from some of the decisions.

We still choose, no matter how we dress up the reasoning behind the choice.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think the Bible actually says it in the context that our will was in fact free by the grace of God (i.e. you still have to abide by the 10 commandments).

Still, can't really say it works. Even with 10 commandments, which are kinda like asic hardcoded things instead of rules, you're still not able to be free when other people rule over others.

Not people, POWER is corrupting, it is an entity almost which feeds into people changing them when expressed into corruptive behaviour.

Yes, but if power corrupts someone, someone is corrupt, in other words, people in power who are corrupt

Other replies are more or less abou free will in general with some anti-nutmeg so, you guys rabble on about that.

What zenith said may be true, but when the consequences are chosen by men, it's not free will.

 

[Thorwyn]

I think the freedom of mind and choice that the church is talking about only covers the decision to believe in god or not. It says nothing about your every day life and whether or not other people are making the rules for you.
If you decide to believe in god, you´ll get your pair of wings and a harp after you die. If you decide to not believe in god, you´ll get thrown into a pit full of boiling shit (but hey, at least you can smoke!).
It´s the basic mechanism of mind control: "The choice is actually yours! Don´t blame US for forcing you into this, WE`re not responsible for your fate."

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yeah Thorwyn, the church bible and the bible bible are two different things, i meant the bible bible not the spin-off

 

[Thorwyn]

Same thing in this case.
Even the bible bible is talking about freedom of choice for or against god.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Same thing in this case.
Even the bible bible is talking about freedom of choice for or against god.

True, but it also talks about free will to make choices and such. Which was the point i was tryign to convey, it being impossible when some with that free will hinder that freedom.

Then again, it could mean free will as a whole, where the actons of all count as the actions that are "judged".

Interesting pov i think; what if humanity is judged as a whole and not the individual?

 

[soze]

I think Free Will is the ability to not follow laws. Like my boss can tell me what to do but he can't force me to do it. I can make the choice to tell him to go stuff himself and lose my job if that's what i feel is right, and to me that is free will. Same with laws people chose to live by a society's laws they are not forced to by a higher power making choices for them.

 

[Killswitch]

What an odd question. You are of course completely free to live in a hut of your own construction and not pay taxes. However, "society" is free to choose (sort of..different discussion) what is acceptable behavior for members of that society. If that doesn't include your hut-lovin' ways, then your rustic domicile will be torn down and yo' ass will be thrown in jail.

Free Will does NOT refer to the ability to do what the hell you want. It simply defines a philosophical opposite to determinism. Determinism says "in any situation, you can only possibly do one thing and your future and that of the universe is totally mapped out for all eternity". Free Will says "at any point, any sentient creature can choose what they want to do".

You might as well argue that humans have no free will because they can't fly or make a perpetual motion machine. Whether the laws are human-imposed laws or the laws of thermodynamics (which we obey in this house, in case you were wondering) we can still choose to attempt to break them. That is Free Will.

EDIT:

Interestingly, you could argue that there really is no difference and that a world where we have Free Will would not necessarily be any different to one in which we had none. There would still be decisions to make and you would still rationally debate which one to take before doing it. The only difference would be that the decision you reached would have been somehow pre-determined billions of years before you were born!! Philosophically though, the difference is huge. Imagine if it could be proved that humans had no free will. Obviously the reaching of that conclusion would be unavoidable, as would the consequences. Would prisoners continue to be locked up for crimes that they had no choice but to commit? It's a trippy train of thought, which you can decide to follow or not. Unless you have no Free Will, in which case you'll DO AS YOU'RE DAMN WELL TOLD!!!

 

[Chronictank]

Free Will does NOT refer to the ability to do what the hell you want. It simply defines a philosophical opposite to determinism. Determinism says "in any situation, you can only possibly do one thing and your future and that of the universe is totally mapped out for all eternity". Free Will says "at any point, any sentient creature can choose what they want to do".

What about if your future is already mapped out for you by your own decisions, so you are just following a set path but one of your own creating. In essense you are free to choose your decisions but they have already been made

 

[Killswitch]

What about if your future is already mapped out for you by your own decisions, so you are just following a set path but one of your own creating

Don't try to confuse me! It's not like it's difficult!

In answer to your question, I guess that would add the possibility of having the choice to remove your Free Will...so you had it and gave it away.

I think it's an all-or-nothing thing though...what if someone else has made a decision that means that in their (now fixed) future they are going to shoot you in the face. I smell a paradox brewing!

 

[old.Tohtori]

Killswitch if we move out of the context of the original, which would require the consideration of the sky fairy, i do believe that people have a free will. Simply being able to think anything we want is solid proof on it.

Then we have the issues like laws, influence, behavioural modification etc, but as a core, free will is as simple as thinking.

The question was on the sky fairy theory though, where it becomes rather interesting(in my opinion) discussion.

Since we are given free will to do as will, why in the omnipotence does the grand creator also allow other people to dictate what we can do with that free will

Kind of a confimenent due to freedom.

 

[Killswitch]

Killswitch if we move out of the context of the original, which would require the consideration of the sky fairy, i do believe that people have a free will. Simply being able to think anything we want is solid proof on it.

Then we have the issues like laws, influence, behavioural modification etc, but as a core, free will is as simple as thinking.

The question was on the sky fairy theory though, where it becomes rather interesting(in my opinion) discussion.

Since we are given free will to do as will, why in the omnipotence does the grand creator also allow other people to dictate what we can do with that free will

Kind of a confimenent due to freedom.

Well, that's what a society is...a small limiting of freedoms for each person in pursuit of a better standard of living for everyone. I lose the "right" to murder anyone I see fit, and in return I get an assurance that I won't be murdered (or if I am, the guy that does it should be punished). In the same way, I pay a percentage of my income each month but I am provided with facilities I couldn't ever fund myself (doctors, roads, parks etc). I don't think we need to invoke the Sky Fairy here. He creates a bunch of people and gives them free will then sits back and watches. They then organise into self-sufficient communities which limit the freedoms that He originally provided, in order to survive and prosper.

Now what you seem to be getting at is a different question, which is why are some people able to influence your life disproportionately. In some cases, this is by design (elected officials, law enforcement officers and suchlike). In other cases, it's an inevitable outcome of asymmetry within society. People with money can employ better lawyers, influence elected officials, purchase land and so on. This gives them "power" which can be leveraged against those with less power.

By accepting the benefits of a democratic, capitalist and basically humanist society, you also accept the downsides. These include people having more money than you, people having better looking girlfriends than you and people having more influence than you. The upside is that you have the Free Will to pursue these things for yourself. If you make a billion dollars or become Prime Minister, then you earn the chance to screw with other people's ability to make their own decisions while your options become more open.

I'd be interested as well to know how you can prove you are able to "think about anything you want". In the absence of Free Will, you would have the appearance of being able to do that, but any apparent decision you made to think about something would in fact be predetermined. So when you stubbornly decided to think about sparrows to prove that you have Free Will, in actual fact the decision that you would do that wasn't in your hands at all, but determined earlier (presumably at the inception of the Universe).

Someone made an interesting point earlier which mirrors stuff that I've read. It can be shown through studies of the brain that decisions about (for example) reactions to threats are made in a certain area of the brain. However, when studied closely, it can be shown that the reaction happens first and THEN the brain lights up to "make" the decision, but what it's actually doing is rationalising a decision it didn't make, but wants to believe it did. The brain is a massively-complex self-deceiving system. From filling in gaps in your visual field to reordering memories so they make more sense to you! It's fun!

 

[old.Tohtori]

Now what you seem to be getting at is a different question, which is why are some people able to influence your life disproportionately.

Actually no, what i'm getting at is the question of the deity in question and it making no sense regarding the message.

"I shall give all free will, yet i will amke it so that some people can elevate to such a stature that your free will becomes limited and negate equality."

 

[Killswitch]

Actually no, what i'm getting at is the question of the deity in question and it making no sense regarding the message.

"I shall give all free will, yet i will amke it so that some people can elevate to such a stature that your free will becomes limited and negate equality."

Ahhhh...fair enough. I answered that as well, I think. All people have the ability (in theory) to use their free will in such a way as to elevate themselves to that stature. So if you don't like it, do something about it!

To be more serious, without the "reward" of elevation to such a stature through the acquisition of money and power, there would be much reduced incentive to take risks and explore the unknown. By allowing people to reach this status you refer to, we give them an incentive to make money, develop medicines, books, gadgets (and bombs, toxins and parking meters...you can't have it all your own way!) which benefit people and society, even as their freedoms are slightly eroded by the process.

Does that make sense? I can't tell

 

[Calaen]

STUFF

Well put!

 

[Killswitch]

Well put!

Yeah, I'm well known for my "stuff". I tend to ramble on a bit though

 

[old.Tohtori]

Ahhhh...fair enough. I answered that as well, I think. All people have the ability (in theory) to use their free will in such a way as to elevate themselves to that stature. So if you don't like it, do something about it!

To be more serious, without the "reward" of elevation to such a stature through the acquisition of money and power, there would be much reduced incentive to take risks and explore the unknown. By allowing people to reach this status you refer to, we give them an incentive to make money, develop medicines, books, gadgets (and bombs, toxins and parking meters...you can't have it all your own way!) which benefit people and society, even as their freedoms are slightly eroded by the process.

Does that make sense? I can't tell

It does and you've got a fair point there, in short what i got; if you want to do shit, you gotta do shit

But i have a counter for that; poor people.

Some are born into countries or wellfare, good schools etc. Some are born in wartorn deserts with no possibility to elevate.

Hardly seems like equal distribution of free will there, again, in the skyfairy theory.

 

[Killswitch]

It does and you've got a fair point there, in short what i got; if you want to do shit, you gotta do shit

But i have a counter for that; poor people.

Some are born into countries or wellfare, good schools etc. Some are born in wartorn deserts with no possibility to elevate.

Hardly seems like equal distribution of free will there, again, in the skyfairy theory.

But then, look at Abramovich, the owner of Chelsea. He was born into a poor family in Russia and started his "career" selling stolen petrol while in the army (if Wikipedia is to be believed!). I don't think Carlos Slim had a spectacularly rich upbringing either, or Gordon Brown for that matter.

No doubt it's harder, but if your Free Will (and your conscience) will extend to theft, murder, lying and generally being an arsehole, you can achieve those goals!

Now if Eve hadn't taken that bloody apple, we'd all be living in Paradise right now, with no drought, famine, war or anything...so the Sky Fairy did his/her best to make stuff fair, but that no-good woman ruined it for everyone!

 

[Turamber]

People still have free will. They can choose to live as society requires them (obey the law) or they can choose to disobey.