Religious beliefs or reduced cruelty to animals?

[old.Tohtori]

I did want to point out that i get the whole "no suffering" side of things, it's a valid point, ofcourse an animal suffering less before it becomes a powersource in my belly is nice, but i would think, that if i was in that camp, that i would be against ALL that sort of things, not just one or two instances.

 

[Scouse]

I think the majority of people don't really care about the source of their meat, and those that do change their values quickly when inflation makes "ethical" meat too pricey.

I also think it's funny that we always associate human emotions on to animals...

It's really silly that meat eaters have ethical concerns about the last few minutes, but none about the rest of the animals life. Your comparison was ridiculous.

1) I do care about my source of meat. Always have (since before I was a teenager).

2) My values don't change based on price. I'm happy to (and do) pay double. I'd be happy to pay more - I'd balance it by eating less meat if I couldn't afford it - I eat meat every day right now so...

3) I don't associate human emotions with animals. Pain isn't an emotion - it's something distinctly physical and measurable (as can be seen in that new scientist article I linked).

4) As you can see above - I have ethical concerns about the whole lifecycle - not just the last few seconds.


I suggest, Ch3t, that since you don't care you think it's silly that other people do?

 

[Ch3tan]

Yeah no worries scouse, however you are attacking toht's opinion while accepting no attack on your own.

 

[Scouse]

Also, Scouse, you clearly have more of an issue with the religious exception than the suffering of the animal. Or maybe I've got you wrong?

I've issues with both. Different issues and they anger me in different ways.

Ah!:

Yeah no worries scouse, however you are attacking toht's opinion while accepting no attack on your own.

Yep, I am attacking Toht's opinion (as usual) - and I'm defending mine. Attack away old bean - I can't stop ya

 

[old.Tohtori]

Scouse i do want to ask, you personally(to make clear i mean you), if you eat fish or cattle?

Fish ofcourse having the problem i pointed out earlier; being hooked through face and dragged to die of affixiation(sp?).

Cattle, well, imprisoned for life, contained and fed what humans think make it taste better with sole purpose of being meat.

Those hardly seem at the level of "humane".

EDIT: also i don't mind the "attack", i believe i've answered it.

 

[Scouse]

As I've already said in this thread, I do eat cattle.

We've a responsibility as keepers of these animals to minimise the harm that we do to them. All types of harm - from the way they're kept to the way they're slaughtered. If we are to use a species in this way then we should go out of our way to make sure we live up to "our side of the bargain" (so to speak).

Do you not agree with the above as a principle?


As for fish. Yep, I eat fish. Not very often and very rarely from supermarkets (for long and complex reasons which are compatible and consistent with my ethical view). I mainly eat the ones you're talking about - hooked through the face.

It's my understanding that the science shows that fish don't feel pain in the same way as mammals. When the science shows otherwise I'll re-evaluate my stance.


Open and transparent enough for you? It's not often I have to justify the fact that I prefer to behave as ethically as possible, and from a scientifically defensible position, to someone who freely admits he doesn't give a shit

 

[old.Tohtori]

I'm not asking for justification, just asking if you're consistent with your view.

As you might have noticed, i don't have a problem with people wanting ethical treatment, i just expect them to also act on it across the board

I don't really "give a crap" as you so eloquently put it, i ofcourse prefer a fast kill, but it won't put me off a steak if the cow died of a heartattack or a death by cake.

I'm not sure i agree with the principle of "owning certain treatment" to our livestock, i go more with the principle that if something is hunted/killed/etc, it should have a point. Leather and tasty meats is a point ofcourse, old as time itself even.

But that all aside; if you check that every piece of meat, of any source, is ethically treated and quickly killed and don't make expections, fair dues. I don't as i find that if a piece of meat finds its way to my tummy, i respect the animal for giving me such a gift

You do have to agree that many meat eaters who have a problem with this particular way(draining), don't hold the same principles for a lot of hunted animals(for example) that also, to more or less same extent, bleed to death.

 

[Ch3tan]

So how do you sit with food wastage scouse? The amount of good meat that is discarded as offal is ridiculous. Surely if we are are killing an animal (in whatever way), we should make full use of it?

 

[rynnor]

As I've already said in this thread, I do eat cattle.

We've a responsibility as keepers of these animals to minimise the harm that we do to them.

I'm afraid that makes you a massive hypocrit - killing something is clearly the ultimate form of harm you can do to it.

Edit - I eat meat but I dont kid myself its moral and no amount of free range nonsense removes the basic immorality of killing animals for food.

 

[nath]

I'm afraid that makes you a massive hypocrit - killing something is clearly the ultimate form of harm you can do to it.

That's actually not entirely clear. There are worse cruelties than death.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think it's a bit dangerous to take that discussion(is death worse?) into this as well, knowing how things go

And even if it is akin to what i just said, i have to say;

Edit - I eat meat but I dont kid myself its moral and no amount of free range nonsense removes the basic immorality of killing animals for food.

I don't necessarily agree that morality comes to play with eating animals. (meaning that i've not thought of it fully, but initial thought says i don't)

 

[rynnor]

That's actually not entirely clear. There are worse cruelties than death.

Prolonged suffering is bad but as a single action killing is the worst harm you can do to anyone.

 

[nath]

Prolonged suffering is bad but as a single action killing is the worst harm you can do to anyone.

OK, but to swap out a word (because I don't want to get in to an argument of semantics) prolonged suffering can be far more cruel than a quick and painless death.

I'm not perfect, I do eat at fast food restaurants and I expect their meat isn't sourced very responsibly but if there's a law that states animals should be treated to a certain standard before being slaughtered then I'm all for it. If the law results in meat becoming more expensive, then tough shit.

I don't hold with the idea that one has to be utterly perfect in their actions to have an opinion like this - we're not politicians.

 

[Jupitus]

Oh Fuck.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

That's actually not entirely clear. There are worse cruelties than death.

This thread is one of them.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Hey, this time you can't blame me, i was out of the..err...country when it went all offity toppicy!

 

[Raven]

Yay Toht's back. You have missed some corkers.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yay Toht's back. You have missed some corkers.

I noticed some, though it's for the best. I hope i haven't had too much of a re-programming, wouldn't want to rip you lovely people of your favorite venting targets

 

[Scouse]

So how do you sit with food wastage scouse? The amount of good meat that is discarded as offal is ridiculous. Surely if we are are killing an animal (in whatever way), we should make full use of it?

TBH, I don't give that much of a monkeys what you do with it once it's dead. It's the cruelty thing that I'm most concerned about.

I'm not saying we should kill things for fun and wang beef at the neighbours if that's the train of thought you're going down tho

 

[Scouse]

I eat meat but I dont kid myself its moral

It sounded a bit moral to me when I typed it. Cba hitting backspace tho.

I don't think it's a moral issue, but I still think if we can minimise pain we should...

 

[Ch3tan]

TBH, I don't give that much of a monkeys what you do with it once it's dead. It's the cruelty thing that I'm most concerned about.

I'm not saying we should kill things for fun and wang beef at the neighbours if that's the train of thought you're going down tho

Then your moral compass seems to be broken, surely if you are going to farm an animal and then kill it, you make good use of it.

I think it's a much bigger issue than whether you stroke it's head and tell it everything will be okay before slaughtering it.

 

[Scouse]

Weak, Ch3t, very weak.

I'd already predicted this shitty argument (it was an obvious tactic, clumsily executed) and said we shouldn't be wasting animals - and you can see this in the very post that you quoted

 

[rynnor]

I think its pretty clear that this is about persecuting people who have a religion you dont like rather than about animal cruelty.

If you do this as an atheist you are no better than the religious folk who try and force their beliefs onto others,

 

[nath]

I think its pretty clear that this is about persecuting people who have a religion you dont like rather than about animal cruelty.

If you do this as an atheist you are no better than the religious folk who try and force their beliefs onto others,

So you're saying that you've done scientific research and you can confirm that halal and kosher practices are no more cruel to an animal than the standard slaughtering techniques? It would seem at odds with the New Scientist article Scouse linked.

 

[Scouse]

I think its pretty clear that this is about persecuting people who have a religion you dont like rather than about animal cruelty

And I think this assessment is a massive bag of pony shite

I think you're a little pissy because I've backed up my argument against animal cruelty with evidence and then stood and justified my against-cruelty stance to people who freely admit they don't care.

I think it's pretty clear that you consider animal welfare issues "free range nonsense" and dislike the cogent arguments I've put forward...

 

[DaGaffer]

I think its pretty clear that this is about persecuting people who have a religion you dont like rather than about animal cruelty.

If you do this as an atheist you are no better than the religious folk who try and force their beliefs onto others,

Hmm, don't understand that line of logic at all. If a religion requires you to do something unethical, (and cruelty to animals surely is) then in this country at least, secular laws should take precedence. I don't think atheism has anything to do with it, even if I don't like religion on a personal level. You're not "forcing a belief" on anyone, except inasmuch as all laws are ultimately a value judgement put together by society at large.

 

[rynnor]

So you're saying that you've done scientific research and you can confirm that halal and kosher practices are no more cruel to an animal than the standard slaughtering techniques? It would seem at odds with the New Scientist article Scouse linked.

I didnt mention anything about whether it causes more pain or not - my point is that trying to get laws changed so that they impact a group of people you dont like is a form of hate crime.

 

[Scouse]

I didnt mention anything about whether it causes more pain or not - my point is that trying to get laws changed so that they impact a group of people you dont like is a form of hate crime.

Lol! Hate-crime!

Yep. You're talking shit. It's fuck all to do with religion and everything to do with animal cruelty - that you don't give a fuck about. "Free Range Nonsense"

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think you're a little pissy because I've backed up my argument against animal cruelty with evidence and then stood and justified my against-cruelty stance to people who freely admit they don't care.

Hmm, correct me if i'm wrong, but you seem to be putting out a thought that a personal opinion is more valid then another if it has some scientific backing to it?

Atleast it seems to imply that.

 

[Scouse]

/sigh