Religious beliefs or reduced cruelty to animals?

[chipper]

i always try to get free range meat where possible eggs chickens etc from farms simply because a well treated animal will always taste better over that of one under stress this is why kobi beef is rated one of the best in the world they actually massage the cows lol to keep the muscles relaxed

i go for taste when i pick my meat a free range chicken tastes so much better over one stuck in a warehouse in the dark with no room to move but if push come to shove and it was all that was available id still eat it.

 

[yaruar]

i always try to get free range meat where possible eggs chickens etc from farms simply because a well treated animal will always taste better over that of one under stress this is why kobi beef is rated one of the best in the world they actually massage the cows lol to keep the muscles relaxed

i go for taste when i pick my meat a free range chicken tastes so much better over one stuck in a warehouse in the dark with no room to move but if push come to shove and it was all that was available id still eat it.

Interestingly when they did blind tastings of chicken the battery ones came out on top, although that's probably due to lack of exercise making them nice and tender.

 

[chipper]

i think there is a definite taste difference between the two and i personally think the free range chickens are alot more juicy and less stringy than a warehouse chicken suppose its down to personal tastes tho when all is said and done.

 

[Scouse]

Best chicken I ever had was in India. There's no meat on the fuckers but they'd been allowed to roam free and eat what they liked - and they were gorgeous

 

[MrHorus]

How much does the animal *really* suffer when it's bled out in a manner consistent with halal?

How long does it feel pain and how long does it last before it loses consciousness once it's throat is slit?

 

[Scouse]

I don't personally know. But would you rather die by hanging by the ankles and having someone administer a knife to your throat or would you rather have a bolt through the brain?

Either way, it's kind of beside the point for me. The point for me is that why does Islam get to dodge Britain's animal welfare laws?

 

[Ch3tan]

You mean Islam and Judaism Scouse? Or are you now working for the british press?

Also I saw the sun form yesterday which had a two page spread on this, the article was a big pile of anti-islamic bullshit. Why is this suddenly an issue when it hasn't been as long as I can remember?

When did the law actually come in allowing halal and kosher butchering? I'd imagine over 20 years ago?

 

[Scouse]

Didn't know that the jews were allowed to as well. I find it just as objectionable.

I also wasn't aware that it was a current issue in the media. I was just responding to the thread

I lived in Bradford for a long time. There used to be a fly-ridden open-backed pickup truck that used to deliver the halal meat to various "restaurants" in my area. So not only did I have an issue of cruelty, I also think it's a possibility that Halal meat (in this case anyway) may not be subject to the same rules of hygene.

Never stopped me eating curry tho

 

[Ch3tan]

Google the story scouse, it's ridiculous what the press are allowed to get away with. I'd also imagine this law was passed to appease Jewish residents rather than Islamic ones.

You are right that it shouldn't be a religious exception though, if they allow butchering in this fashion, then everyone should be allowed to do it if they choose.

And yes, I did mean import earlier.

edit:// from 2003, last time there was any talk about this in the mainstream media it seems. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2977086.stm

edit 2: // Alos found this on : Muslims in New Zealand, who use a reversible form of electrical stunning that animals can recover from if they are not immediately slaughtered. This proves the animal is alive when killed and is therefore halal.

 

[Ch3tan]

Also, £2b spend per year by British Muslims on halal meat apparently : European Union - New labelling laws for Halal meat

I can't find a date for when this exception to the law was introduced, can anyone?

 

[nath]

I don't personally know. But would you rather die by hanging by the ankles and having someone administer a knife to your throat or would you rather have a bolt through the brain?

Sorry mate but that's the worst kind of logic. If we're going to criticise something for animal welfare then it should fucking well be done in as scientific a way as possible and not simply "ugh, I wouldn't like to be that goat".

 

[Scouse]

Ooooh! nath woke up on the wrong side of the bed! Whaz got your goat you pedantic grump!

There'll be a scientific paper somewhere about the relative merits of bolt-brain rather than neck-slit - which is why the scientific community considers the exemption a no-no.

But do you really want me to go look for it?

 

[nath]

lol, so you can act all Pissy McSandyVagina but the second I criticise you're logic I've woken up on the wrong side of bed? Take it like a man, you fanny.

Anyway, I don't need you to find any papers but lets stick to logic please, lest we fall in to Toht and Turambers domain.

 

[Scouse]

Furry muff

 

[nath]

Furry muff

That's the stuff, fact me baby.

Sorry for the tone but I'm so used to people and their bullshit pseudo-logic and basing things on feelings. As Ben Goldacre says "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that. You ****" (I may have added a bit).

 

[Scouse]

Don't apologise old bean! You're bob-on. I'm posting at work so I'm not hunting facts the way I should

What I like about the article is this:

It wasn't a surprise to me, but in terms of the religious community, they are adamant animals don't experience any pain, so the results might be a surprise to them," says Johnson

Adamant? Well, presuming they're not talking about the 80's pop icon:

ad·a·mant
  –adjective
1. utterly unyielding in attitude or opinion in spite of all appeals

In case any religious people are reading, this is why you feel got at, laughted at, picked on and "persecuted".

It's because of one thing: once humans convert to a religion and start performing the action of "believing" they become dangerous unthinking idiots

 

[Wij]

Subjects that will cause actual disagreement on FH:-

1.) Sony products vs Good ones.
2.) People who are genuinely interested in politics vs Labour voters.
3.) Religious people vs Normal people.

 

[Scouse]

Religious people vs Normal people.

Thank fuck we no longer live in a world where the former are also the latter...

 

[nath]

Thank fuck we no longer live in a world where the former are also the latter...

Try saying that stateside .

 

[old.Tohtori]

start performing the action of "believing" they become dangerous unthinking idiots

Atleast they become that, what's your excuse?

On topic; the animal dies and delicious meat is produced. Be it bleeding from a gunshot wound(like most wild ones i believe), a knife to the belly, or by patting the cows head and telling it how special it is, before putting a bolt through it's skull, it's all the same.

If you want, be against killing the animal, not how it's killed.

About the bonus round of religious discussion here;

People are stupid, what they do is an excuse.

 

[Bugz]

On topic; the animal dies and delicious meat is produced. Be it bleeding from a gunshot wound(like most wild ones i believe), a knife to the belly, or by patting the cows head and telling it how special it is, before putting a bolt through it's skull, it's all the same.

A sperm meets an egg and a baby is born. Be it from consensual sex or rape. It's all the same. No?

 

[rynnor]

A sperm meets an egg and a baby is born. Be it from consensual sex or rape. It's all the same. No?

Cool - we are down to ridiculous comparisons again - hey passing a pen to someones the same as shooting them - they both involve the passing of a few grams of metal right?

Black's the same as white because they both arent colours right?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Black's the same as white because they both arent colours right?

Right, they're all just people!

No but seriously, ridicomparisons are the trend, but they do derail things a lot, so trying to avoid them.

 

[Ch3tan]

Bugz, you haven't commented much, it's your thread, so what do you think? Which paper did you see it in?

I'd also quite like an answer to when this exception to the law was passed, scouse and nath seem more interested in the religious part of the discussion.

 

[Bugz]

Cool - we are down to ridiculous comparisons again - hey passing a pen to someones the same as shooting them - they both involve the passing of a few grams of metal right?

Black's the same as white because they both arent colours right?

Toht is making the point that the transition from beginning to end has no bearing. I was using an example to show it does have bearing.

Edit to above: My view was clearly stated in the first post I made.

 

[Ch3tan]

Well firstly your initial post ignored kosher meat, it's very targeted at Islam. Having seen some of the papers I wanted to know if your opinion had changed since, as the papers seemed full of crap.

Also, in all the years this has been going on, have you actually cared at all?

I think the majority of people don't really care about the source of their meat, and those that do change their values quickly when inflation makes "ethical" meat too pricey.

I also think it's funny that we always associate human emotions on to animals.

Also I think the point toth is making, as chipper made earlier, is that animals suffer by being bred for butchering anyway. It's really silly that meat eaters have ethical concerns about the last few minutes, but none about the rest of the animals life. Your comparison was ridiculous.

 

[MYstIC G]

Subjects that will cause actual disagreement on FH:-

1.) Sony products vs Good ones.
2.) People who are genuinely interested in politics vs Labour voters.
3.) Religious people vs Normal people.

4.) Toht vs anyone else on any subject

No?

 

[Scouse]

If you want, be against killing the animal, not how it's killed.

I'm not against killing the animal. I'm against how it's killed?

Why the fuck should I not care about the minimisation of pain?


I liked Bugz' post - it wasn't meant as a direct comparison - it was meant to show the idiocy of your post, which it did quite ably I think.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Toht is making the point that the transition from beginning to end has no bearing. I was using an example to show it does have bearing.

I was actually making a point that people should be against killing animals if they have a problem at all. Might have been unclear there.

In any case, the transition doesn't have bearing in this instance(in my opinion), it doesn't mean it lacks bearing in other cases. My examples are of actual ways animals are killed, many of what people don't object at all.

People don't have a problem with shot animals, that bleed to death also, why would they with this?

People don't mind a fish, being hooked through the face, being dragged to where it can't breathe and left there to die, so why this?

4.) Toht vs anyone else on any subject

No?

Hey! It's not ANY subject. I have standards of bullshit you know

 

[Ch3tan]

How was tohts post idiotic though? That is his personal view, he clearly does not care about the sourcing of his meat. Don't be an arse for the sake of it scouse.

Your view is that you do, deal with it, his opinion is different to yours. Neither of you are "right".

Also, Scouse, you clearly have more of an issue with the religious exception than the suffering of the animal. Or maybe I've got you wrong?