[Rant]Let's talk casual...gaming.

[Iceforge]

Casual games sell more because most "casual people" doesn´t know how to torrent a game(one of the reasons). They want profit, so they make casual games mostly. This has also been stated once from a publisher company. They also stated that when making a game, they need to spread it out of different platforms due to the piracy problems and therefore the game suffers. This leads back to the word "profit". But im sure someone will reply something like: Piracy is not the problem, piracy is honourable!!!

i'm just going to say one last time, that your source of this information (i.e. the industry itself) is not the most reliable source. Taking their word uncriticly and without question is just stupid.

Looking at GENERAL statistics, it becomes much more clear why things are like they are.
Just to make it clear, people today spend a much higher % of their total income on entertainment (Music, movies(Cinema/DVD) and games) than ever before.
Meanwhile, the SELECTION of entertainment products has increased, meaning that 1 single entertainment product will generate less of a sale because it's share of the market (objectively) is smaller than ever.

To simplify it further, imagine there is sale for 100 million each year, with just 1 game, 1 movie dvd and 1 music cd, each could expect, objectively without preferences taken into account, a share of about 33 million.
Imagine then a market with sales for 200 million each year but 3 games, 3 movie dvd's and 3 music cd's, then each could only objectively expect a share of about 22 million.
Then each of them wonder "Why didn't I get 33 million? OMG, some people downloaded my product (of which some later bought the product and others didn't for whatever reason), that must be the ONLY REASON! PIRACY COSTED ME 11 MILLION!!!!!"

It just doesn't make sense. End of story.

 

[fettoken]

i'm just going to say one last time, that your source of this information (i.e. the industry itself) is not the most reliable source. Taking their word uncriticly and without question is just stupid.

Looking at GENERAL statistics, it becomes much more clear why things are like they are.
Just to make it clear, people today spend a much higher % of their total income on entertainment (Music, movies(Cinema/DVD) and games) than ever before.
Meanwhile, the SELECTION of entertainment products has increased, meaning that 1 single entertainment product will generate less of a sale because it's share of the market (objectively) is smaller than ever.

To simplify it further, imagine there is sale for 100 million each year, with just 1 game, 1 movie dvd and 1 music cd, each could expect, objectively without preferences taken into account, a share of about 33 million.
Imagine then a market with sales for 200 million each year but 3 games, 3 movie dvd's and 3 music cd's, then each could only objectively expect a share of about 22 million.
Then each of them wonder "Why didn't I get 33 million? OMG, some people downloaded my product (of which some later bought the product and others didn't for whatever reason), that must be the ONLY REASON! PIRACY COSTED ME 11 MILLION!!!!!"

It just doesn't make sense. End of story.

You obviously misunderstood me. I didn´t blame EVERYTHING ON PIRACY MEIGHTS!!!! whic your comment seem to say. And you are completely clueless to the extent of piracy aswell. And taking any word uncritically is just stupid, thats why i have formed my own opinion and factors that i think play a role in this.

If we just disregard everything and ask this. Have we become spoiled brats when it comes to games?

 

[Chronictank]

Casual games sell more because most "casual people" doesn´t know how to torrent a game(one of the reasons).

Firstly that is bullshit, it has never been easier to get torrents
Casual computer users managed to troll the net to find streaming movies which were fewer and more far between, so unless you can provide some proof that "casual people" dont know how to use a torrent this is just a empty theory
This also ignoring that most people know at least one semi-literate person in the use of such things

They want profit, so they make casual games mostly. This has also been stated once from a publisher company. They also stated that when making a game, they need to spread it out of different platforms due to the piracy problems and therefore the game suffers. This leads back to the word "profit". But im sure someone will reply something like: Piracy is not the problem, piracy is honourable!!!

Piracy has been used as an excuse to go multi-platform by alot of developers (ignoring piracy is just as easy, and just as widespread in console gaming).
Crytec refused to publish on what basis their "increased piracy figures" were based on, but ofc they said it so it must be true
I am sure piracy has increased, but i am willing to put money that it has increased very nearly at the same rate as the video game industry
So piracy in proportion to the size of the industry has unlikely increased much at all
This is based on guesswork and generalisations, but then its no more factual than what you posted

However the video game industry has GROWN every year, so i would hardly call that piracy hitting them hard
And Iceforge is spot on, there is alot more competition now so big developers who traditionally would have huge market shares are feeling the pinch from small developers like COPR (The Witcher) and GSC Game World (STALKER) as it is far easier now for them to give out their material than it used to be

Have we become spoilt brats?
Definitely, but why shouldn't we expect products we pay for to be good?
It's down to developers to make sure they give good quality products instead of farming out recycled, poorly conceived games
Not us, the consumer to buy it anyway to support them

 

[Thorwyn]

Piracy has been used as an excuse to go multi-platform by alot of developers

Uhm... why would a developer need an "excuse" for developing multi platform? Porting games to consoles is expensive (not only in terms of manpower but also in terms of licences.. you can´t just develop an X-Box game and throw it on the market) and it´s risky, because the code-merge creates funny side-effects. Not to mention the problems with disc/hd space.

 

[Chronictank]

Uhm... why would a developer need an "excuse" for developing multi platform? Porting games to consoles is expensive (not only in terms of manpower but also in terms of licences.. you can´t just develop an X-Box game and throw it on the market) and it´s risky, because the code-merge creates funny side-effects. Not to mention the problems with disc/hd space.

no idea, but it seems to be the buzzword nowdays
I would guess it so they can simply code for consoles then port to PC
see Rainbow Six Vegas, Lost Coast etc..
Sad truth of the matter is that a good game on a console (Halo), is a pretty average game on a PC because of the great titles PC gamers have enjoyed, (Halo cant even compete with Half Life for example)
So rather than making a great game, they can make a ok game which will sell well on the other formats

 

[Thorwyn]

Sad truth of the matter is that a good game on a console (Halo), is a pretty average game on a PC

...and vice versa

So rather than making a great game, they can make a ok game which will sell well on the other formats

Nah, that doesn´t work. If you´re putting millions of money into a project, you better make sure it´s a good game! I won´t go into details on how you have to pay for a licence, but it´s a LOT. If a company creates a sub-par game, it´s (mostly) the result of bad design.

 

[Chronictank]

...and vice versa

i disagree unless you are talking about forced port strategies like CNC3, although ave you seen that new voice recognition stratergy i forget the name
now that looks cool

 

[fettoken]

So rather than making a great game, they can make a ok game which will sell well on the other formats

That seems to be the tradition nowdays, whic is unfortunate. The best thing you could actually do is to not buy a single game from those big corporate suits and just pirate them. Then buy from smaller developers that makes interesting games. Its a little like take from the rich and give to the poor

 

[Iceforge]

Hmm, agree with Chronic almost 100%

some Game Developers out there has now punched for good in as being QUALITY products. I never pirate a Blizzard product to test it out, because I am quite convinced I don't have to, as all games I tried from them was great. Not all of them unique and groundbreaking, but decent good games with a good game play.
Only exception being WoW, but 1 error which is just my personal taste (with the number of WoW subscribers, I am quite convinced that it is just my personal taste) is not making me download and test their game in advance in the future.

Only time I actually DL'ed a blizzard game was WC3TFT; and that was due to having dropped my CD = computer can't read it / install it, so downloaded a copy to keep playing the game I payed for.

Another little thing to add is that officially has been announced that the biggest mistake in the history of the music industry has been changed on several of those lists that keep track it it. It used to be the music producer turning down The Beatles who was the biggest mistake, but recent years it has been changed to shutting down Napster.
Shutting down Napster resulted in the "piracy problem" becoming uncontrolable for themselves.

 

[Golena]

Firstly that is bullshit, it has never been easier to get torrents
Casual computer users managed to troll the net to find streaming movies which were fewer and more far between, so unless you can provide some proof that "casual people" dont know how to use a torrent this is just a empty theory
This also ignoring that most people know at least one semi-literate person in the use of such things

Actually i'm not sure he's entirely incorrect.

I know plenty of people that are quite happy to buy copied films because they don't want to pay the silly £20 prices for something they are probably going to watch only once. Most of these people fit into the causal gamer stereotype.

Now ask yourself this.. why are they paying any money for it when it's available for free...
How to get stuff for free off the net, while easy, is only easy once you've gone and done it once or twice. PC's are complicated things which only geeks know how to operate. Building your own PC is about as difficult as putting together an IKEA sofa these days. I imagine if you went round IKEA and asked who would be comfortable building their own PC from bits you'd find a large number of people who would run away in fear..

It's not hard to do, but there's still an invisible technophobe barrier that simply stops your average casual gamer from doing it.

 

[Adari]

[...]Lately i've been noticing a dangerous increase in what the game developers like to call "casual gaming". At the core, casual gaming means to gaming as much as wanking means to sex. You might like it, it's fun for a while, but after the nteenth time you get bored and would even hump something which slightly resembled an animal to get some form of challenge.[...]

I'm pretty sure thaaaat

uttering the phrases "hardcore gaming" and "hardcore MMORPG's" means that you're not allowed to talk about sex.

 

[Helme]

In my opinion there's good casual gaming and there's bad casual gaming.

World of Warcraft is the good kind, it simplifies things so everyone can understand without sacrificing much of the advanced options for players who wants them.

Then there's bad casual gaming, games built only on a shitty gimick that lasts a few days at most who gets insane sales making more companies make copies of it to further increase its sales. In short term this usually means RPG's go from actually being RPG's to 2 key hack and slash shit without a story, RTS games go from being the most advanced games there is to a matter of building more troops than the other guy without utilizing any thought whatsoever on what counters what, FPS games go from something with actual plot to just random "we kill aliens because they kill us" and so on. It's getting really, really annoying by now.

What pisses me off further is that everyone is wanking over the consoles right now, you just know a company is only out for the cash when they release a fucking RTS game exclusive to the 360(Tom Clancy's EndWar) this in short terms means that one of the potentinally best RTS games ever will be dumbed down to be playable on a console control. This is also a major problem in console converted games in my opinion, a keyboard has 102 keys generally - but due to consoles we are limited to using about 10-15 of those, at most. Another problem with this is that games that are made multi platform tends to favor the consoles in gameplay - again making PC gaming shit(see Age of Conan, no they didn't make the combat system because it was 'new' or 'refreshing', they made it so it could work on the 360, and if they had gone PC exclusive I'd bet they would just have gone with the good old quickbars).


edit: regarding piracy, no - it's not the main reason PC is loosing as a platform, the main reason PC is doing that is because developers like Crytek forget that not everyone has an Quadcore with 4gb ram and 8800 Ultra, this btw is hilarious considering Crytek has now gone from PC exclusive to making console games because of PC piracy - it's going to be fun when they realise their only selling point(graphics) can't really be used on a 2 year old console.

 

[Thorwyn]

you just know a company is only out for the cash when they release a fucking RTS game exclusive to the 360(Tom Clancy's EndWar) this in short terms means that one of the potentinally best RTS games ever will be dumbed down to be playable on a console control.

A company being "out for the cash".. whatever next! You know what? I`m pretty glad that my company is "out for the cash", because it means that I`ll be able to work for this company for another couple of years. Noone forces you to buy console crap, so why do you give a fuck what companies decide to release?

 

[Helme]

The gaming industry has changed alot in recent years, yes it has always been about money but it used to be more about giving their costumer a good game experience, today it's more about getting the game out as quickly as possible so we can cash in.

 

[Thorwyn]

The gaming industry has changed alot in recent years, yes it has always been about money but it used to be more about giving their costumer a good game experience, today it's more about getting the game out as quickly as possible so we can cash in.

Yes, it has changed a lot. It used to be a pool for creative people and idealism.
However, with the demands of the market these days, each release is a fight for survival. I`m not complaining, but that´s the truth. It´s not like the industry is a bunch of greedy, money-hungry sharks who don´t give a damn about their customers. That´s only true for "some" companies.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yes, it has changed a lot. It used to be a pool for creative people and idealism.
However, with the demands of the market these days, each release is a fight for survival. I`m not complaining, but that´s the truth. It´s not like the industry is a bunch of greedy, money-hungry sharks who don´t give a damn about their customers. That´s only true for "some" companies.

The industry isn't, the producers are

 

[Calaen]

If it wasnt for casual gamers I doubt you would have the money being thrown at the gaming industry allowing for the good games to be designed.

I do not consider myself a casual gamer, yet I like my Wii, so I am slightly confused at what you want.

There are good games and bad games and everyone has their own opinion, thousands of people get wet thinking about assassins creed, I think its shit. Graphically amazing but very repetitive and pointless after the first couple of missions.

Surely a good games designer should be able to make a game good, regardless of its target audience?

 

[old.Tohtori]

If it wasnt for casual gamers I doubt you would have the money being thrown at the gaming industry allowing for the good games to be designed.

I do not consider myself a casual gamer, yet I like my Wii, so I am slightly confused at what you want.

There are good games and bad games and everyone has their own opinion, thousands of people get wet thinking about assassins creed, I think its shit. Graphically amazing but very repetitive and pointless after the first couple of missions.

Surely a good games designer should be able to make a game good, regardless of its target audience?

Yes and it's not about that.

Like i said, time and time again, casual games are ok, but from an inside view the boom is going towards casual games, less towards core games.

It's the possibility of casual games taking over completely, that made me post this more then anything.

Like said, it's fine and dandy, unless all go to casual. Then we might lose our core gaming.

 

[fettoken]

Screw casual. Either youre a gamer, or youre not!!!

 

[old.Tohtori]

From another point of view, it makes a designers life a b*tch really.

You want to create big worlds, innovative ways to game, adventures akin to old classics, etc etc...but when you try to sell those things, you get the old speaches of "not casual enough" or "it's not really what the market wants".

So you start designing games that are like mario kart or guitar hero, with maybe one or two "tricks" up it's sleave, but nothing like the old gamers remember.

Take mobile gaming for instance, you could design a wonderful monkey island or jagged alliance for the mobile platform, that even core gamers would love to play on the bus etc, yet, because of "casual gaming orientation in the market" you can't get even a game with a story in.

"People like solitaire!"

 

[Calaen]

Mario kart has longevity simple as. And not because it was aimed at the casual gamer either, id like to see a casual gamer complete the 150cc circuits with the winners medal while playing it casually.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Mario kart has longevity simple as. And not because it was aimed at the casual gamer either, id like to see a casual gamer complete the 150cc circuits with the winners medal while playing it casually.

Yes yes you like mario kart, not the point.

Gees...

 

[Aoami]

Not read any of the thread apart from the first post but:-

I think that proper games companies, who make the decent games, know the difference between casual and proper gamers and can pander to each market with ease.

End of.

 

[Calaen]

Yes yes you like mario kart, not the point.

Gees...

The whole argument is flawed, I will continue to say Mario Kart is not a casual gamers game and you will say otherwise. The reason I like Mario Kart is because you have to put in the time playing it to become great at it.

Not because you can pick it up and go through it in 2 hours. the problem with people today is that as soon as a game comes out they want to buy the cheat book/walkthrough guide for it as well.

All of my mates who bought GTA are looking for weapons cheats because it makes the game more fun, they dont like the challenge anymore.

 

[old.Tohtori]

The whole argument is flawed, I will continue to say Mario Kart is not a casual gamers game and you will say otherwise. The reason I like Mario Kart is because you have to put in the time playing it to become great at it.

Not because you can pick it up and go through it in 2 hours. the problem with people today is that as soon as a game comes out they want to buy the cheat book/walkthrough guide for it as well.

All of my mates who bought GTA are looking for weapons cheats because it makes the game more fun, they dont like the challenge anymore.

You can play mario kart casually, like guitar hero, or like wii fit, or you can put in time in it to 2master it" all. Mantra of more casual games really.

Mario Kart is a casual game. You'd call tetris casual too, even if no casual player could finish level 10.

Just because something takes time to master, it's not a core game.

About you and your mates not wanting to have a challenge, and cheating through, that's exactly the problem i referred to. People are getting lazier and lazier, due to first easy games, and it's making the game industry make easier and easier games.

Another point what was a problem in WoW: Everyones favorite answer to any question "Use thottbot" or some such.

Noone would dream of actually giving simple directions, or playing the game.

 

[Calaen]

You can play mario kart casually, like guitar hero, or like wii fit, or you can put in time in it to 2master it" all. Mantra of more casual games really.

Mario Kart is a casual game. You'd call tetris casual too, even if no casual player could finish level 10.

Just because something takes time to master, it's not a core game.

About you and your mates not wanting to have a challenge, and cheating through, that's exactly the problem i referred to. People are getting lazier and lazier, due to first easy games, and it's making the game industry make easier and easier games.

Another point what was a problem in WoW: Everyones favorite answer to any question "Use thottbot" or some such.

Noone would dream of actually giving simple directions, or playing the game.

I think you will find I didnt say I liked to cheat. its pointless there is no challegen required so the actual point of buying the game is void.

 

[Wonk]

I'm glad we're getting all those casual games - I rarely play for more than an hour a time, which is where those "casual games" are so great. Just jump in and get a quick bash.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think you will find I didnt say I liked to cheat. its pointless there is no challegen required so the actual point of buying the game is void.

Ok you don't heat, your friends do, the point still stands.

 

[pikeh]

surely you can choose any game to be casual or not?
play baldurs gate for half an hour, does it make it a casual game?

 

[Chronictank]

surely you can choose any game to be casual or not?
play baldurs gate for half an hour, does it make it a casual game?

no thats playing casually

Casual games are usually easier (through hints or the game itself)/simplified

Example; Zack and Wiki vs Broken Sword