SPAM random annoying things

[Wij]

This new Workers Party seems nice (thread):


View: https://twitter.com/OohTheChilliOil/status/1278640495804235776

 

[Wij]

So. Dean Cain is a dickwad now:


View: https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/1278784994312441856

 

[Overdriven]

How the fuck can a team of 60+ IT people (Large org) have so few people bloody talk? Like.. Do these people just want to forever be antisocial basement dwellers who only talk in "mandatory" meetings?

Jesus. The ONLY people who talk are the same 6-7.

How do people cope with no one talking? How do people get people talking? Even have the engagement group asking people to do "bake off" style things and it's THE SAME FEW who respond.

Jesus bloody christ.

 

[Scouse]

What you trying to get them talking about?

If you've got them in a room of 60 people it's understandable. Try smaller groups?

 

[Overdriven]

Without getting into it, it's not even just in the bigger groups - It's also within the team silos too.

Like, general chatter in general.

 

[Scouse]

Oh. Maybe they're bored shitless, it's just a job and they really want to go home and talk to their mates?

IMO some people just want to work at work. And yes, IT does attract the less sociable too I reckon.

 

[Moriath]

Without getting into it, it's not even just in the bigger groups - It's also within the team silos too.

Like, general chatter in general.

Forced jollity and all is shite. Bake off stuff might be fun idea for the person who thought it. Everyone else might be like wtf let me just do my job.

 

[Scouse]

I thought that. Especially having never seen a single episode of bake off

 

[Overdriven]

There's "Not talking" and then there's "We've been working from home for 13-14 weeks and no one has ever seen you write "hello" or take part in any conversation about anything" - I suppose it's just a mix of people. It's infuriating when it's also my team.

In the office people were a lot more sociable (Makes sense, harder to ignore people) but it's just interesting & infuriating.

EDIT: bake off was just an example (Albeit a real one and I didn't get involved there) - But it could be things like cars/books/games/tech/etc - Just interesting.

 

[DaGaffer]

How the fuck can a team of 60+ IT people (Large org) have so few people bloody talk? Like.. Do these people just want to forever be antisocial basement dwellers who only talk in "mandatory" meetings?

Jesus. The ONLY people who talk are the same 6-7.

How do people cope with no one talking? How do people get people talking? Even have the engagement group asking people to do "bake off" style things and it's THE SAME FEW who respond.

Jesus bloody christ.

LOL. My missus is a scrum master; she rants about this all the time. Especially now they're having to do big room planning virtually.

 

[Scouse]

LOL. My missus is a scrum master; she rants about this all the time. Especially now they're having to do big room planning virtually.

Round robin and direct questions to the quiet guys. Some of em will come round in time...

 

[DaGaffer]

Round robin and direct questions to the quiet guys. Some of em will come round in time...

Oh she does all that (now we're both working at home I've listened in a couple of times; she's better than any of the scrum masters I've ever worked with), but getting devs to understand its in their interest to be vocal is a constant challenge. Too many introverts.

 

[Overdriven]

LOL. My missus is a scrum master; she rants about this all the time. Especially now they're having to do big room planning virtually.

One of my roles is working with our SM to get my team's shit together. Exact problem.

We're at the point now where we've enforced chairs at each ceremony, it was 6 months of basically me and the SM talking every meeting. Now the quiet ones get to lead and we sit in silence if no one talks, and as they're the chair if there's not enough info they need to ask for it

Harsh but works.

 

[Scouse]

One of my roles is working with our SM to get my team's shit together. Exact problem.

We're at the point now where we've enforced chairs at each ceremony, it was 6 months of basically me and the SM talking every meeting. Now the quiet ones get to lead and we sit in silence if no one talks, and as they're the chair if there's not enough info they need to ask for it

Harsh but works.

My question would be - are they bringing value to your projects when they're put in that position or were the naturally vocal ones filling that role well and the quiet ones contributing elsewhere?

I guess for personal development it helps them but potentially could be quite stressful for them.

 

[Yoni]

My departments just won’t talk altogether. They may talk in their individual departments if they are not too big but over 5 or 6 and it is only the extroverts who talk. This drove me insane at the start of cv19 as every day there would be meetings but Imit was just me blabbering on - however after the meeting I would get the same questions from all of them individually - I tried explaining this but still silence - eventually I decided to have meetings with my direct reports only and they could gather questions and feed back answers..... then I received complaints that I was not available” enough....... So I have a monthly meeting with everyone now and if individuals want to ask me stuff there is an open door

At the moment we are implementing a project and trying to get them to speak up is really difficult but they are beginning to do so... during my vacation they are rotating leading the project (I am not there all the time as I am on holiday) What I noticed was yesterday the project team were far more opinionated than the last meeting I went to.... so maybe for my departments this would be a good way forward..

 

[Overdriven]

My question would be - are they bringing value to your projects when they're put in that position or were the naturally vocal ones filling that role well and the quiet ones contributing elsewhere?

I guess for personal development it helps them but potentially could be quite stressful for them.

These are in our smaller ceremonies, not cruel enough to put somebody who doesn't want to in front of the whole dept (I do ask before every one so they can say yes whenever) - But in our team ones it is just for development. I know one wants to "not just be a developer" and wants to be more business facing and he has drastically improved over the last few months because of a push/quite harsh truth about his work ethic. Just.. Need everyone else to improve

#IATA

 

[Moriath]

One of my roles is working with our SM to get my team's shit together. Exact problem.

We're at the point now where we've enforced chairs at each ceremony, it was 6 months of basically me and the SM talking every meeting. Now the quiet ones get to lead and we sit in silence if no one talks, and as they're the chair if there's not enough info they need to ask for it

Harsh but works.

You want to put people where they are strongest not shoe horn them into things that makes them uncomfortable. Glad your not my manager

 

[Scouse]

You want to put people where they are strongest not shoe horn them into things that makes them uncomfortable. Glad your not my manager

Disagree tbh.

I always hated presentations - mortal fear of them. But I landed a role much more senior and on tomorrows european governance call, with about 30 very senior global management about 25% of the time will be solely me, and I'll be one of the most comgortable on the conference.

You get better with enforced exposure. If I hadn't performed I'd have been out of the door - so "no choice" made me grow.

 

[Scouse]

Your finger stuck or something @Moriath.

I can assure you the above is true.

 

[Overdriven]

You want to put people where they are strongest not shoe horn them into things that makes them uncomfortable. Glad your not my manager

Well, if you're not willing to move forward with either personal or professional development I'd not want you as an employee. Anyone who I've got in my team have the choice in large meetings to take part or let me do it. Completely their call. In our direct meetings, where it's a small team, they do it as it allows them to grow. Sorry if you don't see that Either be comfortable in the same place with the same involvement or grow. I want my team to be able to walk into a meeting and not be shy or come across like standard IT people... And that does not, in any way, benefit me

Disagree tbh.

I always hated presentations - mortal fear of them. But I landed a role much more senior and on tomorrows european governance call, with about 30 very senior global management about 25% of the time will be solely me, and I'll be one of the most comgortable on the conference.

You get better with enforced exposure. If I hadn't performed I'd have been out of the door - so "no choice" made me grow.

See @Moriath - Proof it works

EDIT 900013: @Scouse I've had to (Considering I'm relatively junior in the real world) grow to the point where I can talk to senior management/SLT without breaking into a sweat. So.. It works.

 

[Moriath]

Well, if you're not willing to move forward with either personal or professional development I'd not want you as an employee. Anyone who I've got in my team have the choice in large meetings to take part or let me do it. Completely their call. In our direct meetings, where it's a small team, they do it as it allows them to grow. Sorry if you don't see that Either be comfortable in the same place with the same involvement or grow. I want my team to be able to walk into a meeting and not be shy or come across like standard IT people... And that does not, in any way, benefit me



See @Moriath - Proof it works

EDIT 900013: @Scouse I've had to (Considering I'm relatively junior in the real world) grow to the point where I can talk to senior management/SLT without breaking into a sweat. So.. It works.

you can also damage people. Dont quote two cases and say case proven.

it worked for you ok good. But somewhere theres someone who is dreading the thing they have been asked to do even though they do their day job without any issue. Cause some dude who has a care responsibility to them is causing them sleepless nights and anxiety.

 

[Scouse]

you can also damage people. Dont quote two cases and say case proven.

it worked for you ok good. But somewhere theres someone who is dreading the thing they have been asked to do even though they do their day job without any issue. Cause some dude who has a care responsibility to them is causing them sleepless nights and anxiety.

You sink or swim - the needs of the business come first.

For those who swim, great.

For those that sink - perhaps the role isn't the role for them if the job *requires* the uncomfortable thing they don't like.

I dislike it - I really do - but the business is the thing that pays the wage. If the request is reasonable, but the person cannot do it comfortably, then it's up to that person to let the business know, rather than let their mental health suffer.

If the company is a good one then there may be scope to amend the role, or move the employee to another position.

But the risk is there - if they cannot fulfill the requirements of job then to complain about it is simply unreasonable.

Businesses should care - but employees need to realise they're not charities. If the business needs growth and people can't grow then they get left behind.

 

[Ormorof]

I agree with some stuff, run a team of 8 devs and have seen the above, ive actually found being remote has made some things a bit easier, pre covid most of our retros had 2-3 people doing most of the talking but we have been using some nice tools that allow everyone to add their input anonymously before we start discussing anything, considering keeping that type of thing once we go back to office tbh

Regarding forcing people to do things they are uncomfortable with, yes but only if they are willing. Making people do something they have zero interest in doing is an awful approach. In @Scouse example he wanted to get better at it so forced himself to do so (and i assume got support from someone to help him get there)

 

[Scouse]

Regarding forcing people to do things they are uncomfortable with, yes but only if they are willing. Making people do something they have zero interest in doing is an awful approach. In @Scouse example he wanted to get better at it so forced himself to do so (and i assume got support from someone to help him get there)

Yes, only if they are willing. But if the role has changed and now requires it - unless there's an alternative, come the next round of redundancies...

For the permies, yep - but I'm a contractor. So do or die in my case.

 

[Yoni]

I really do not agree with forcing square pegs in to round holes except if it is at the request of the employee or a joint agreement is made during an appraisals. Sure if you are a contracter you do as the company asks or you go find another assignment. For permenant employees the relationship is much more give and take - there are always evolutions for people which do not have to involve making them feel excessively uncomfortable - a terrible terrible manager would do this.

 

[DaGaffer]

I agree with some stuff, run a team of 8 devs and have seen the above, ive actually found being remote has made some things a bit easier, pre covid most of our retros had 2-3 people doing most of the talking but we have been using some nice tools that allow everyone to add their input anonymously before we start discussing anything, considering keeping that type of thing once we go back to office tbh

Regarding forcing people to do things they are uncomfortable with, yes but only if they are willing. Making people do something they have zero interest in doing is an awful approach. In @Scouse example he wanted to get better at it so forced himself to do so (and i assume got support from someone to help him get there)

There are loads of devs who simply want to be told what to do and then be left alone to do it, and they hate interacting with others, but unfortunately that doesn't always lead to good quality software and is far more likely to lead to failures in test and rework.

Working in teams gives better outcomes, and if you've got a good SM or PO they should protect you from too much management interference anyway, but within your team there's really no excuse for not contributing, no matter how introverted you are, you still have a responsibility to the rest of your team.

 

[Scouse]

I really do not agree with forcing square pegs in to round holes except if it is at the request of the employee or a joint agreement is made during an appraisals. Sure if you are a contracter you do as the company asks or you go find another assignment. For permenant employees the relationship is much more give and take - there are always evolutions for people which do not have to involve making them feel excessively uncomfortable - a terrible terrible manager would do this.

Agree totally - nobody should be forced to do stuff that makes them very uncomfortable.

But you shouldn't be able to go through your career without experiencing any stress or nervousness - it's natural to feel trepidation and worry when you've not done something, maybe have a restless night. But as you grow that goes away.

But forced? Nope. Never.


I disagree with the contractor thing btw - contingent workforce are still human. If new requirements for them come in once they've taken a role then the same care should be taken.

However, in many ways I agree - if you can't step up to the plate and do whatever's being asked of you as a contractor then maybe contracting isn't for you.

 

[Yoni]

Working in teams gives better outcomes, and if you've got a good SM or PO they should protect you from too much management interference anyway, but within your team there's really no excuse for not contributing, no matter how introverted you are, you still have a responsibility to the rest of your team.

I agree whole heartedly with this - what I do not think is ok is to force or even request heavily introverted individuals to do presentations to the masses.

As for contracters - at some point there is a decision that you make whether conciously or subconciously to follow this employment route. In sweden it depends what kind of contracter you are as to what rights you have. If you are an "employed" contractor then you you are employed to do a job and if the job changes and you do not want to do it or you are not skilled then you work your notice and you are found a new placement. If you are self employed then you have all the risk and also most of the return. Self-employed contractors I have taken on work in this way because there is a level of freedom that an employee doens't necessarily have - you also have much more risk. If you have taken the decision conciously then you are very aware of that risk and accept it as payoff for the rewards. The contractors I have worked with believe it is their resposibility to stay current and if you do not then that is your decision and the consequences are yours to bear.

As well as wanting your employees to grow and evolve it is even more important that managers also grow and evolve and learn new techniques - the days of comand and control are gone thank god and those dinosaurs that are left will hopefully retire soon or will be outstepped by those who continue to improve.

Take your example Overdriven of geting the courage to talk to senior management... If a senior manager is approachable and engages regularly in conversation with all levels of the organisation actively listening to ideas, criticism, improvement points and what works then the employee doesn't have to "learn to talk to a senior manager without breaking into a sweat". Good managers will ensure that they are seen as human in front of their teams and departments ie apologise for mistakes, take time to understand what triggers / motivates an employee, give employees insight into a less than perfect employment journey ....... If you have managers who do this then employees will grow in the areas that interest them and yes sometmes do things that they themselves thought were unachievable...

 

[Moriath]

I agree whole heartedly with this - what I do not think is ok is to force or even request heavily introverted individuals to do presentations to the masses.

As for contracters - at some point there is a decision that you make whether conciously or subconciously to follow this employment route. In sweden it depends what kind of contracter you are as to what rights you have. If you are an "employed" contractor then you you are employed to do a job and if the job changes and you do not want to do it or you are not skilled then you work your notice and you are found a new placement. If you are self employed then you have all the risk and also most of the return. Self-employed contractors I have taken on work in this way because there is a level of freedom that an employee doens't necessarily have - you also have much more risk. If you have taken the decision conciously then you are very aware of that risk and accept it as payoff for the rewards. The contractors I have worked with believe it is their resposibility to stay current and if you do not then that is your decision and the consequences are yours to bear.

As well as wanting your employees to grow and evolve it is even more important that managers also grow and evolve and learn new techniques - the days of comand and control are gone thank god and those dinosaurs that are left will hopefully retire soon or will be outstepped by those who continue to improve.

Take your example Overdriven of geting the courage to talk to senior management... If a senior manager is approachable and engages regularly in conversation with all levels of the organisation actively listening to ideas, criticism, improvement points and what works then the employee doesn't have to "learn to talk to a senior manager without breaking into a sweat". Good managers will ensure that they are seen as human in front of their teams and departments ie apologise for mistakes, take time to understand what triggers / motivates an employee, give employees insight into a less than perfect employment journey ....... If you have managers who do this then employees will grow in the areas that interest them and yes sometmes do things that they themselves thought were unachievable...

Oh @Yoni can you be my manager

 

[Overdriven]

Take your example Overdriven of geting the courage to talk to senior management... If a senior manager is approachable and engages regularly in conversation with all levels of the organisation actively listening to ideas, criticism, improvement points and what works then the employee doesn't have to "learn to talk to a senior manager without breaking into a sweat". Good managers will ensure that they are seen as human in front of their teams and departments ie apologise for mistakes, take time to understand what triggers / motivates an employee, give employees insight into a less than perfect employment journey ....... If you have managers who do this then employees will grow in the areas that interest them and yes sometmes do things that they themselves thought were unachievable...

@Yoni I did it because it made me uncomfortable. The career I want and the position I want means I need to be able to talk to executives and senior leadership/management. The idea of "Just being a team lead" or "just being a developer" doesn't cut it for me. I'm currently trying to get the "Head of Engineering for the UK" where I work but won't be able to for a while as there are skills I need which I am putting myself in a position to get. Is it fun? No. Do I want to do it? Not really. Am I being made to by managers? No. Are the people I talk to scary? No.

In my mind, they are my senior and have more experience than me therefore I can't just approach them because I don't know as much as them. This is a bullshit mindset which people need to get rid of. They were in my position too once and they grew. The difference between people I work with and the people I want to work with is that I'm aware of this and want people to grow to the point where they're comfortable.

The world isn't great, not everyone wants to "change", but I will ALWAYS give people the option to - But if we've worked in the same team for 12 months and you've not contributed to a team meeting beyond standups in the last 12 months things will get uncomfortable. In ALL my 121s I ask for feedback, regardless of negative and positive. I'm completely honest with my team (Sometimes in a bad way, I am human) and they know nothing they say will be offended. We've argued as a team and then just got on with it and changed as needed.

Functioning team of non-functional humans.

Anyway. (Love you really @Moriath <3)

I need a new keyboard because my cat jumped on this one and broke bits of it