Racism..

[Gorbachioo]

You mean some (very small number) of African cultures, not that its of much relevance i doubt any but a small minority do it in other nations as it is against the law of the land

Modern Muslims (in any considerable number) have been in Europe since the 60's when the European economy was in ruins and needed labour, they were asked to come over while there were issues i dont think they broke any laws on the whole.
Would be productive if you were more specific about what problems you are refering to (splitting hairs but technically Muslims aren't a race if you want to disregard their teachings, however if you want to validify what is written in the qu'ran everyone is born a muslim hence why it is often linked)

I didnt say they think its ok. I said its not that big a deal compared to what it is in the west. If you're taught all of your life that women are lower than you then forcing them to have sex becomes a lot easier. For example, in Saudi-Arabia rape is legal in marriage.

Almost everytime theres immigration theres crime. Are you telling me that those muslims/arabs/whatever came here without any problems at all? If Finns didnt make it in Sweden without increasing their crime rates i find it hard to believe that the same thing didnt happen in the UK.

 

[kivik]

I guess what I am seeing as racism isn't in your face racism its more the quiet behind close doors kind of thing. I live with alot of asians at the minute and they seem to be awfully secular in that no matter how much effort you make they just don't want to know, they speak to their own kind and virtually ignore you. They speak in their own language when you are walking pass or around which i personally find a.) rude b.) intimidating.

The few white people that do live in the block seem to have had very similar experinces.

I would never dream of treating people differently but it certainly got me thinking that certain actions could make average Joe start to have racist thoughts (which i guess is awhole other argument - born or made racist?!)

Hope that made sense?

When a persons speaks in their native language they do it because they feel more comfortable doing so. It's not really something to feel intimidated about...

 

[Zenith]

Gorb; either you have no clue about the arabic culture and teachings, alternative you look at it a few 50-100 years back in time.

And before you start ramble about how bad it is in the Middleast, yes, there is slums over there that you wouldnt even know how bad, and I guess a lot of terror is happening there, but you are way off with your generalizing. The middleeast have A LONG way to go but it is not as bas as you portrait it, not in the nonwar zones or the zones still being terrorized by the noneconomic state.

 

[Huntingtons]

Those men come from cultures where women are property so raping them isnt that big a deal as it is for western men.(...)

I did not generalize. I wasnt talking about what some Arabs do, i talked about what their culture teaches them. Which is that women are second class citizens.

you're generalizing there.

 

[old.Tohtori]

For example, in Saudi-Arabia rape is legal in marriage.

Almost everytime theres immigration theres crime. Are you telling me that those muslims/arabs/whatever came here without any problems at all? If Finns didnt make it in Sweden without increasing their crime rates i find it hard to believe that the same thing didnt happen in the UK.

Still doesn't make it cultures fault, ti's the scum who are the problem.

Criminal is criminal, culture is never the blame.

Crime rates are also statistics and could've come from any number of places.

But what i really wanted to comment is, there's no rape in marriage in western culture either. It's domestic abuse at best and really hard to prove. You'd be shocked at how deviant western culture is compared to the generalised ideal you hold of the saudi.

 

[Amanita]

I did not generalize. I wasnt talking about what some Arabs do, i talked about what their culture teaches them. Which is that women are second class citizens.

As I understand it, christians are (or were) taught that too. Eve commited First Sin and all that, and all women are supposed to pay penance? Thats the impression I get anyway.

Thats one of the reasons I don't like that religion much either.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Until about 20-30 years ago, women were second class citizens here too. Well, still are in some areas.

 

[soze]

Where i grew up in NE London there were areas made practically no go zones if you were not part of the local race. There was a parade of 6 shops i had been going to since i was a kid but 2 were taken over by Bosnians (i think) and within a year all 6 had become a no go as groups of 10 - 15 people hung around out side. My Parents would not go there because when you walk past a group of 15 people talking a different language it can become scary. Me and my friend could not go as it just caused trouble.

I think some small minded twats did give them a hard time which might be the reason they started hanging around outside but that for me just escalated it further and further till it was almost a stand off between them and everyone else.

 

[Jeros]

Both arguments have merit both for and against immigration.

Personaly i welcome anyone willing to work hard or is fleeibng violence, and i think there should be easy for any member of the EU to move to any other EU country.

When it comes to crime however, i would feel a dam sight safter walking past a large group of turks or polish than i would even a small group of white chavs.

I think this whole country has some real issuses that really boil down to how we are educating or rather not educating our own next generation in what is right and wrong, what is hard work and what is sitting on your arse doing nothing, immigrints will form gangs for protection when there are groups of chavs wandering around causing fights and intimidating people. And there kids will get mixed up with our own and get caught in the cycle and end up as criminals themselves.

Ya im a negative bastered, but at the end of the day, i dont feel safe walking around in some areas of the night less i get stabbed by some random youths for no good reason, hell a guy i live with was beaten by a large group just because he "did not belong" in the area.

Ya im ranting, fucking chavs attempted to mug me once, they got 70p and a bus ticket, they even had bikes for a speedy getaway!

God i miss australia

 

[soze]

I just think if you want to come and live and work in England you should have to learn English and should try to speak it in Public

 

[Hawkwind]

Yes, ask my wife how she feels about Indian business people in Dubai. She was the most unracist person I have ever known. Now she has an extremely low tolerance for people who try to rip her off. Unfortunately that's about 90% of the Indian sales community in Dubai.

1 very quick example.

She wants the hallway, landing and stair walls painted. So call a few painters and they come around to quote. The first guy turns up, a Lebanese man in his 50's and says 1000 Dhs if you buy the paint. Two person job for two days. About what I was expecting (between 1 and 2K).

Second guy turns up, a 20 something Indian from Kerala region, says two day job 7000 dhs. My wife says that is way too much, how much if we buy the paint we want. He replies 5000 Dhs. Now 2000 Dhs is nearly 300 GBP and were talking 6-8 5L cans of paint!!! She politely says no and shows him the door. A third guy turns up, another Indian 30-40 and quotes 14,000 Dhs. Its a big villa but not a bloody palace. She asked him if she looked like an idiot. He then starts shouting at her that she has no clue about costs involved. Luckily I was upstairs at the time and when his voice started sounding quite angry I ran down stairs to find him rudely pointing and digging his finger into her shoulder. I very roughly threw him out the house. I then called the police, he was picked up later and brought back to apologise. Have to say the Police were excellent even asking if I wanted to talk to the local owner of the business.

If this kind of behaviour was abnormal it would not be a problem. Unfortunately she encounters it on an almost dailly basis. To the point now where she does not like dealing with Indian's. It seems they see her as a cash cow there to be fleased. They do not treat me with the same manner so I presume they also see women as easy marks.

Sad but true.

 

[old.Tohtori]

They do not treat me with the same manner so I presume they also see women as easy marks.

Sad but true.

Again have to say, same with western culture.

Take car repair services or builders for a prime example.

If you look/feel like an easy mark, you get charged extra.

 

[Huntingtons]

I just think if you want to come and live and work in England you should have to learn English and should try to speak it in Public

if you can get by being mute, why cant you get by not speaking the language? (granted that mutes are able to read presumably). Why should they speak it in public? if they have no interest in speaking to english people, why bother?

I do believe kids in school shouldnt speak their native tounge to eachother if its Not the language of the country however.

 

[Gorbachioo]

Gorb; either you have no clue about the arabic culture and teachings, alternative you look at it a few 50-100 years back in time.

And before you start ramble about how bad it is in the Middleast, yes, there is slums over there that you wouldnt even know how bad, and I guess a lot of terror is happening there, but you are way off with your generalizing. The middleeast have A LONG way to go but it is not as bas as you portrait it, not in the nonwar zones or the zones still being terrorized by the noneconomic state.

Just so we're on the same page: Im talking about Arab culture, not Islam.

Are you seriously telling me that women are not second class citizens in places like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan?

And btw chronic: when we talked about Islam and women you blamed arab culture for their bad treatment. Now its just african cultures?

 

[Gorbachioo]

you're generalizing there.

No im not.


Describing Arab culture is not generalizing. In arabic countries women are considered lower. With maybe a couple of exceptions like Dubai.

 

[Huntingtons]

you're pointing at the men thinking less of women. That is generalizing. Just or unjust is not for me to judge, but its clearly generalizing.

 

[old.Tohtori]

No im not.


Describing Arab culture is not generalizing. In arabic countries women are considered lower. With maybe a couple of exceptions like Dubai.

But that's a contradicted statement already.

"Arab culture is demeaning to women!
But not always!"

That reads, "arab culture in general is demeaning to women."

That is generalizing.

Which, again, is no different from our culture 10-20 years ago.

 

[Gorbachioo]

Still doesn't make it cultures fault, ti's the scum who are the problem.

Criminal is criminal, culture is never the blame.

Crime rates are also statistics and could've come from any number of places.

But what i really wanted to comment is, there's no rape in marriage in western culture either. It's domestic abuse at best and really hard to prove. You'd be shocked at how deviant western culture is compared to the generalised ideal you hold of the saudi.

Ofcourse the culture has something to do with it. If you went to Saudi Arabia and had gay sex (i know you would! ) and got arrested for it would you consider yourself a criminal? Since i know that you'll say anything to win a debate you'll probably say that you would but the truth is that you would feel that they have violated your rights. In the same way, while they acknowledge that its not legal nor even acceptable in their own culture, rape is not as big a deal for a saudi man because he has been taught that women dont matter that much.

Rape is illegal is Finland. I dont know about the rest of Europe but i'd be very shocked to find out its not. Its illegal and just as punishable as any other rape.

And i dont understand what you're trying to say with that statistics thing.

 

[Huntingtons]

10-20 might be stretching it abit though (may i point out that would 1998 to 1988). 50 years sounds better. In Denmark women had rights to vote 1919 or something. Thats the starting point.

Just to make it clear:
Rape is illigal in the middle-eastern countries as well.

 

[Gorbachioo]

you're pointing at the men thinking less of women. That is generalizing. Just or unjust is not for me to judge, but its clearly generalizing.

No no no. I am not. Im saying that their culture teaches them to think that way. Whether they do or not is a different thing.


This is generalizing: They do exactly what their culture teaches them. (Not ALL of them, but most of them)

 

[old.Tohtori]

Ofcourse the culture has something to do with it. If you went to Saudi Arabia and had gay sex (i know you would! ) and got arrested for it would you consider yourself a criminal? Since i know that you'll say anything to win a debate you'll probably say that you would but the truth is that you would feel that they have violated your rights. In the same way, while they acknowledge that its not legal nor even acceptable in their own culture, rape is not as big a deal for a saudi man because he has been taught that women dont matter that much.

Rape is illegal is Finland. I dont know about the rest of Europe but i'd be very shocked to find out its not. Its illegal and just as punishable as any other rape.

And i dont understand what you're trying to say with that statistics thing.

If i went to saudi, i would respect their laws. Simple, no "winning an argument" there. I'd even go one better and try to learn their language as much as i can. I don't go to china and throw chewing gum on the ground, 'cause it's illegal there. Laws are laws, if you go to a country, you respect the country laws.

Rape is illegal, yes, but there's a difference i rape and marriage rape. That's what i was saying, get it. Basically it's "legal" for a husband to rape hsi wife as there's absolutely no proof of anything else but domestic violence.

Statistics wise; might be a coincidence that crimerates rise when people move in this fins to sweden thing.

 

[Gorbachioo]

But that's a contradicted statement already.

"Arab culture is demeaning to women!
But not always!"

That reads, "arab culture in general is demeaning to women."

That is generalizing.

Which, again, is no different from our culture 10-20 years ago.

There are always exceptions. Its like saying that calling black people black is generalizing because there are albinos.


More like 50 as was already pointed out. But what does that matter? What we have been has nothing to do with this discussion. Its about cultural differences NOW.

 

[old.Tohtori]

More like 50 as was already pointed out. But what does that matter? What we have been has nothing to do with this discussion. Its about cultural differences NOW.

Women are still in a lesser status NOW.

And if there's always exceptions, then say "some of arab men treat" etc etc.

 

[Gorbachioo]

If i went to saudi, i would respect their laws. Simple, no "winning an argument" there. I'd even go one better and try to learn their language as much as i can. I don't go to china and throw chewing gum on the ground, 'cause it's illegal there. Laws are laws, if you go to a country, you respect the country laws.

Rape is illegal, yes, but there's a difference i rape and marriage rape. That's what i was saying, get it. Basically it's "legal" for a husband to rape hsi wife as there's absolutely no proof of anything else but domestic violence.

Statistics wise; might be a coincidence that crimerates rise when people move in this fins to sweden thing.

Okay. Maybe you would. But still, it would be "easier" to brake those laws (laws which dont excist in Finland). For you gay sex in saudi arabia would be like smoking pot here. Illegal but not really that big a deal. Rape for a saudi is illegal but not that big a deal. Get it?

No it is not legal or "legal" for a husband to rape his wife. Ofcourse if the wife cant prove it then the man probably wont get convicted but that doesnt mean its legal. Is murder legal if it cant be proven?

Do i even need to comment on the statistics thing? Surely you understand how weak that argument was.

 

[Gorbachioo]

Women are still in a lesser status NOW.

And if there's always exceptions, then say "some of arab men treat" etc etc.

Well actually... No. No they are not. Some very rare cases maybe but in general no. Edit: Im not going to debate this. Even if you disagree its meaningless because its far worse in Saudi Arabia.


I will not say "some" when its "most" because when its "most" i'll say "arab men". There are always exceptions. That goes without saying so i dont need to say it.

Cows are dumb even if there are 10 cows that are smarter than einstein.

 

[soze]

if you can get by being mute, why cant you get by not speaking the language? (granted that mutes are able to read presumably). Why should they speak it in public? if they have no interest in speaking to english people, why bother?

I do believe kids in school shouldnt speak their native tounge to eachother if its Not the language of the country however.

Walking past a large group of people speaking a language you can not understand can be unnerving if i walked past and heard they were talking about it would not worry me. I'm not saying that have to talk to me or any English person but i do think when in Public on a English Street it would be nice to speak English.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Okay. Maybe you would. But still, it would be "easier" to brake those laws (laws which dont excist in Finland). For you gay sex in saudi arabia would be like smoking pot here. Illegal but not really that big a deal. Rape for a saudi is illegal but not that big a deal. Get it?

No it is not legal or "legal" for a husband to rape his wife. Ofcourse if the wife cant prove it then the man probably wont get convicted but that doesnt mean its legal. Is murder legal if it cant be proven?

Do i even need to comment on the statistics thing? Surely you understand how weak that argument was.

Yea i get it, still point stands. Laws are laws. If i break them, i consider myself a criminal according to the degree of the law.

I know it's not, neither is in saudi. Just saying, that there's no way to prove a husband raped his wife, so it's "legal" as such.

The statistic thing was just a side comment, a hypothesis, a possibility, stop taking things so personally.

I'll let people who know more about arab culture tell you about how "most" arab men act.

And ofcourse you're not gonna debate things you're wrong about. Just this "saudi are bad!" attitude really irks sometimes when you take a look at our f*cked up western "civilization".

 

[Mey]

For a prime example the other night I had some asian girl (not sure of her race so asian will do) start screaming at me because i told the bouncer in the smoking area that her mate was having a piss against the wall (he was in the pissing against a wall stance). He wasn't so I apologised and told the bouncer I was mistaken. She start threatening to attack me and so on, said sorry once more and she still went on. As she was leaving the area she started swearing at me in whatever language it was, so I returned in German (the only other language I know).

To me she was being rude and trying to intimidate me by swearing in her native tounge.

[[She then stood at the top of the stairs waiting for me at the top, fortunately my mate told her to go away or he'd have to get involved (he's a bouncer) and she went away. but thats not really relevant to the story hehe]]

 

[BloodOmen]

Racism is just bizzare.

 

[Zenith]

No im not.


Describing Arab culture is not generalizing. In arabic countries women are considered lower. With maybe a couple of exceptions like Dubai.

Do you even have the slightest clue how bad it has been in our own part of the world? Dont come throwing rocks in a glasshouse mister. Take a look what have happened in the western civilisation the last few years in terms of the womans role in society and think about the causes.

Yes, I agree, Saudi Arabia is pretty dreadful when it comes to women, looking at their economic state and society. Money is not spread at all and I believe that might be one of the consequenses.

Though, in the case of Afghanistan. Let your country be ripped to pieces by war and bring some truly zealot christians with guns, and I believe we would go back centuries, in terms of the genusperspective and other areas too.